35. Is wellbeing a complete waste of time?

Brandon M 0:06

Hello, everyone and welcome to another episode of the operations room a podcast for coos. I am Brandon Mensing, joined by my lovely co host, Bethany Ayers. How are things going, Bethany?

Bethany 0:16

Yeah, they're going well, I'm exhausted. Brandon, exhausted, exhausted. Because I did an epic walk in London yesterday. Have I ever mentioned my walks to you,

Brandon M 0:29

you have not mentioned the walks to me, I'm looking forward to this.

Bethany 0:32

I will just preface it was probably not the most entertaining thing, but it's just something that I do. So I have two friends that I do big walks with separately, they don't know each other. And the one that I did yesterday is we go to Greenwich. And there is a very good noodle shop in Greenwich. There used to be a sister, one in Elephant and Castle, but it shut down with COVID Sadly, and now this is the only place to go. So what we do is we either walk from Waterloo to Greenwich, building up an appetite and then eat our body weight and noodles, or start in Greenwich and the work off our bodyweight of noodles as we make our way back. And we did that. It's just lovely to walk along the Thames see all the different parts of London that I never go to like whopping if we go the North way. I had no idea that walking was as nice as it is in all these little like, villages within London. And there's some areas that feel very maritime and that you're not walking along a river but much more like a beach sensation. And maybe as an American, still not used to London still grateful I live here. 23 years on walking along the Thames is just magical. It's still an amazing city all this time on. I can't remember who the quotes by I'm gonna guess it's Samuel peeps, but it could be somebody else, which is when you're tired of London, you're tired of life. And there was a long time when I was tired of London when I had young children and everything in London was hard and impossible. And driving is impossible. Public transport some possible life is exhausting. And it's like London, it's just too hard. But now the kids are older, they're out and I've re learning take advantage of it. Alright,

Brandon M 2:24

so we have got a great topic today which is, is well being a complete waste of time. We have an amazing guest for this, which is Gethin Natan, he's a two time best selling author. His current book is a work in progress, unlocking well being to create more sustainable and resilient organisations. That is quite a mouthful. He's been called hrs most influential thinker, and he's the Chief Innovation Officer for benefits and zealous. So before we get to Gethin, Bethany, I wanted to talk about two things. And the first one is a bit of a thesis that I'll put out there, which is the most effective way to improve employee mental health or wellness, as we call it, is by reducing workplace stress. And the question is, where does workplace stress come from? And I would say 80% of that responsibility to create the right environment for employees sits with the Chief Operating Officer. I'll quickly walk through the five points here, that the CEO has really good remit over in terms of making this five of this for employees. The first one is flexibility and control over their work schedule, ie hybrid and remote. You know, I'm a fan. Yes, you your fans are ticking that one. The second one is career progression is their act of coaching within the organisation properly to ensure that there is a track for everyone in the company that they aspire to in terms of their career. We can check that one because I'm a big fan of that. Number three is what I characterise as healthy line management. And healthy line management is the line managers representing the values of the business combined with really progressive policies. The fourth one is more of the classic operations, which is is there clear alignment and focus in the organisation clear roles and responsibilities and clear accountability? And with that is their true empowerment and is their true autonomy? And then the last one, number five is financial security, which is, are you compensating the employees in a way that is fair, equitable, and benchmarked, and the topper is severance packages, because ultimately, employees in the organisation will realise at some point, whether you're screwing ex employees are not based on severance packages. And if you give decent severance packages that are sensible, they'll cue into this. And this is all about financial security where the employees of the company feel secure both of their existing compensation, but also how they're gonna be treated on the way out. What do you think, Bethany?

Bethany 4:46

I agree with the caveat that you can have all of those things in place. And if you have a toxic or fear based culture, it really won't matter. And so there's a combination of Have, yes, you need to have those in place. But that doesn't necessarily mean that you will then have a good culture, because you can still have one where, and a lot of this comes from the CEO, as we've discussed previously, like if the CEO is afraid, or deeply driven, we should call it maybe

Brandon M 5:21

deeply insecure.

Bethany 5:23

But really like looking at it as a short term gain or a way of making a lot of money, or like very paranoid about other people, or paranoid people are out to get them. You can have a very fear based culture, even if middle managers know how to manage and everybody is aligned. And you can walk into businesses and know whether people are operating from a place of security and fun, or operating from fear and a feeling of scarcity. If we have that foundation in place, the other five are definitely necessary. But those five without the foundation, it doesn't make it any better place to work, or any more successful place if everybody's afraid all the time.

Brandon M 6:11

Yeah, or even worse, those five are actually in place, and the CEO is advocating for them. But behaviorally, they're undermining it with the actions that they take, which is almost doubly worse, because it's a bit of like, you're presenting yourself as one image and picture for the company and for prospective employees. And in fact, it's really not the case.

Bethany 6:30

It's like double talk or gaslighting. You're just like, oh, all the right things are being said yet, what I'm seeing doesn't match up to what I'm supposed to be.

Brandon M 6:40

Exactly. I think to be honest, I think that is the most common scenario.

Bethany 6:44

And also like, so I think I've mentioned this book previously. And it's one that I'm always slightly worried about mentioning because I read it 10 years ago, tried to read it again, and doesn't appear to actually say what I remember that it says, but the tribal leadership book talks a lot about what is the point of an organisation, and they have, I think, five levels where level one is Hobbes's view of the world, everybody's out to get you everything's horrible, there is no hope. And you can have different people operating at different levels within your organisation. And it's kind of like who your majority is, is where you are. And then the second one is, the world is an OK place, kind of, but like my place in it is horrible. And there's no point for me to ever do any work at all. And if you kind of think about dealing with local councils or really depressed civil servants, they often are kind of like the stereotypical people working in that level two, world. Level three is where most of us operate all of the time, which is very ego driven. And so I'm okay, you're okay. But I really, we can't both be okay at the same time. So I'm just going to tell you why I'm awesome. And then you're going to tell me why you're awesome. And we're just going to have a lot of politics around being side. Awesome. Parallel playing awesome.

Brandon M 8:06

Yeah, so far, I liked this book, I love to read this. So I'm curious now that the next two levels, and

Bethany 8:11

then level four is where a lot of businesses aim to be, which is, we're all awesome. And we're working as a group against a common enemy. So Salesforce against Oracle, or Microsoft at one point against IBM. But then inside the organisation, everybody's really gelling. And everybody thinks everybody's awesome, but we're definitely against a common enemy. And then the fifth is this, like transcendent moment, that doesn't happen often, where you're just working for the betterment of the world. And we're all in it together. And there is no enemy. And we're just like, a team in flow all the time. And apparently, it doesn't last very long. I don't think I've ever experienced it. But it is this like Nirvana state of an organisation. And I feel like if we look at and think about those levels, at the same time, as we're talking about, what you're suggesting is in place, there can be a nice combination. If you're a level three organisation, there's just loads and loads of politics going on. And again, you can have everything that you've talked about, but we all know it's an unpleasant place to be where everybody's elbows are out, nobody feels that secure. And it has nothing to do with the CEO. It's just that scarcity.

Brandon M 9:33

Yeah, no, that makes complete sense. So this brings me on to thesis point number two. So if we have the core in place that I talked about, and the foundation that you talked about, then the third piece of the puzzle, the 20%, top up as it were, is around optimization and optimization in this case is wellness programmes, as they're described by some of the vendors that are out there and there's really two components of wellness to talk about. The first one is personal well being which is really life events, when you become a first time dad, or somebody passes away, or you've moved city, or you've had a panic attack, and really having access to on demand therapy and coaching, that is part of the organisational corporate plan that you have, those are the hidden make or break moments where you can really an organisation that can be tremendously helpful to an individual to help them get through those situations and equally on the flip side of it, for that employee to feel great about their company and feel great about the programme that's being offered to them. In this case, it's almost like the flip side of healthcare benefits more generally, which is, you know, you want to ensure that there's peak conditioning for you as a human being in terms of your physical ability. And this is really just the mental side of it being covered off as well. So it seems like in that sense, like a bit of a no brainer, but on that first one personal well being, and wellness and companies investing in that, what's your take on that?

Bethany: 10:53

I'm for it, I think sounds good. So, at peak, we used this slack thing that I'm kind of keep thinking it's called dribble, but it's not called dribble.

Brandon M: 11:07

That's a terrible name for a product.

Bethany: 11:10

Not dribble, I just can't remember its name. But you can slack in and immediately speak to somebody, like over slack. But then you can also book in. And so everybody who used it just said it was amazing. And we had a couple of different team members stand up and share their experiences. And so like removing the stigma of it, everybody loved it. And I think it's really helpful for removing the stigma around therapy, going back to my earlier point around, like needing a lot of emotional maturity to then have an environment that everybody thrives in. The only way you're gonna get emotional maturity, unless you had amazing parents and very few of us have had amazing parents is by doing the work and going to therapy and learning how to develop emotional maturity. And so it's a great tool to help everybody in the organisation. Yeah, oh, that

Brandon M: 12:05

makes sense. You're always in a situation where you have budgets in scaleups. And you're like, Alright, I've got X amount of budget, I know that we need health care. There's all sorts of options and packages. So there's that world. And then there's a bit of like this New World of Wellness programmes, really all right, yeah, this makes tremendous sense. We should be investing in that too. And by the way, we should probably try to figure out how to have career progression and some investment of that with l&d this, that the other side of your mind as a CFO, with your budget, you're trying to figure out how to best spend your cash. So where do you think wellness sits in this stack, I guess of options where, you know, you're trying to figure out how to spend money? It's

Bethany: 12:41

interesting question. So I think part of it is benchmarking where you're expected to be so like, pension, long term sick. And a lot of this stuff is a lot cheaper than you realise, death and service. None of it costs that much. And it just makes people feel better. So we did headspace as well. And it wasn't very much per person at all. And this other mystery, one that's not called dribble was, again, quite reasonably priced. So that made it an easy decision. But a lot of it came from benchmarking to begin with. And then like maybe some icing on top, what how did you approach it? We

Brandon M: 13:19

didn't think about it in terms of, here's a bunch of options for employees that we need to be investing in. And it was more of a piecemeal scenario. I think, as a CEO, going into my next company, I will think about it much more holistically around how do we want to balance our spend, because clearly, we ended up shortchanging areas, not because we decided to, but simply there was no money left, which is not a good way to do it. I

Bethany: 13:40

just while you were talking Brandon, I was 100% paying attention to you. And googling what dribble is actually called and it's called spill. So spill, that was what we used. I

Brandon M: 13:55

think they need feedback on their branding. So clearly, you're associating words that are not helpful.

Bethany: 14:01

I did it. But we did look at a bit more holistically. And definitely, we're approaching it with like, what's required, what are the teams looking for, and then investigating pricing. And I was just surprised at how inexpensive things were versus what I was expecting, particularly with your pension provider, like the pension provider adds all these other things on to it. And if you search welfare pension provider, like the death and service and the long term sick and a couple other things, it was just like almost nothing compared to what you're already paying for the pension. Okay,

Brandon M: 14:33

interesting. So the second part of this is we talked about the personal well being, there's also the professional well being and in this case, how do you ensure the well being of the line manager? How does the line manager manage for conflict? How do they deal with impostor syndrome? How do they focus under pressure? How do they build psychological safety? How do they navigate change? How do they inspire their team? How do they lead remote teams? How do they deal with burnout etc, etc. So with that line manager pack, there are a wellbeing. Again, some of these vendors that are out there are providing these packages as services now, they're actually actively allowing you access to a coach on an on demand basis to help you think these issues through. And again, that seems to me like an awesome wellbeing package that sits at the heart and soul of companies being in a place to reduce workplace stress, which is having effective line managers, because they're working on a one to many basis with other individuals where their impact on the company is tremendous, because we're line managing six people in your company or whatever the case is. So what that second package of professional well being, what do you think of that one?

Bethany: 15:40

If it's affordable, I guess that one for me is thinking it sounds really expensive all of a sudden, but I think it would make a huge difference. Like I'm I'm very sceptical about l&d on the whole sceptical about training. Like, I guess I've just gone to almost no training in my entire career from being a junior person to a senior person that I've ever really gotten anything out of,

Brandon M: 16:02

yep, I would triple down on that, because my experience working for the past 10 years with HR professionals is that they have the same opinion, which is we run training programmes, they are forgotten the next day and nobody cares. So it's almost like training in and of itself, by itself is the worst possible investment you can make. Yeah,

Bethany: 16:19

versus coaching, does a lot of what I was talking about with therapy, of like looking at yourself, understanding your own emotional motivations. And therefore, again, you need to be healthy yourself before you can be a good line manager for somebody else. And so offering coaching would be a way of helping people see their their areas where they need to do some work, or supporting people through that work, that

Brandon M: 16:49

are potential. Alright, so with that, let's move over to caffeinated and ask him some of these questions and tackle the topic of is well being a complete waste of time.

Bethany: 17:03

And we're back with our special guest guest Nathan, and today we're going to be talking about as well being a complete waste of time. Now, before we start to answer that question, the important one is, what is well being in the context of work? And what are we talking about?

Gethin Nadin: 17:20

When we look at well, being in the workplace, the majority of what we're talking about is actually how you structure in your organisation. So you start to look at things like is an employee adequately and frequently recognised for the job that they do? Does the manager have a great relationship with them? Do they feel like they have the community around them that can deliver that psychological safety? Do they have open honest conversations and vulnerability with a manager? Our expectations clear, you know, is the organisation basically set up and designed to serve the well being of people? I mean, if you look at something like the reasons why people get burnt out, and you have around 90 to 99% of people said that they've experienced extreme or a lot of stress in the last 12 months. Did you see 99? Yeah. So it's like everybody's experiencing extreme stress. And, and those research pieces that have been looking at that this isn't the same thing every year. So right across the US right across the Europe, you can see that people are stressed at work more than they've ever been. Now, the reasons why somebody gets stressed at work can be really complex. I mean, in the UK at the moment there is and lots of other countries, there's a cost of living crisis, which is putting a big financial squeeze on people, which is leading more people to be unhappy with their employer, because they feel like the only way out of this situation is to get more money. And so they're putting pressure on employers to get higher wages, to buy themselves literally out of this problem. Now, employees didn't cause the cost of living crisis, same as employees didn't cause the pandemic. But it's affecting work. And people are bringing that home. You know, we've we've literally brought home and work together over the last couple of years. And so we can't separate those two things again. And so this is weird mix of things the employers want to support with, but probably isn't caused by them, or you could argue is their responsibility to fix, and I've put money in that bucket. And then you've got the things that the employer is really focused on. And I think for most employers, now we're trying to move away from this idea of do no harm. So that is basically the idea that somebody shouldn't have poor well being because of something you've done as an employer, which would include bad management, workload, unclear expectations, lack of recognition, to do better, which is actually how can I as employ take up this mantle as being given to maybe do more and being more effective in people's lives than the government currently is, regardless of which country you're living in at the moment, and actually create an environment where somebody comes to work with me, their life is better off because they chose to work with me. And I think employers are on this sliding scale of you come to work and get paid, forget it. That's the end of the transaction, which is the old way of working. And then this really progressive, if you're worried about money, if it's affecting your life and your happiness, and my attitude as responsible employees want to help you solve that if I can do that, and by doing so you'll be more loyal to me you'll develop better products will deliver better customer service. And we're stuck on this kind of journey which some people are going through at the moment. But fundamentally, the organisational structure pieces are things like managing workload expectations, good relationship with your team, and manager. They're all the kind of basic well being needs that most of us have. And if you get those settled, you have a really good environment and culture of well being. But then there's the other stuff down the end, where actually, you know, somebody bringing their dog into the office might actually give them quite a bit of joy. So all of those things are important. It's not just a case of we pick and choose the easy ones to do and leave the rest behind.

Brandon M: 20:34

So there was a Guardian article recently citing an Oxford study suggesting that wellness programmes were a waste of time. And the thesis in the article is that workplace stress is derived primarily from shitty operational practices, as opposed to anything else. And that wellness programmes are simply papering over the cracks. And that, statistically, at least no discernible impact on job satisfaction for employees. And I just wanted to get your sense of that, and whether or not you agree with the Guardian article?

Gethin Nadin: 21:03

I don't actually so I think the short answer would be yes, it depends on the circumstance. So if you treat your people like absolute shit, you don't give them any flexibility. You don't train your managers? Well, your expectation is you come you get your money, you leave. And that's the end of this transaction. That's the as far as relationship goes, you give people unclear expectations, you put too much pressure on them, you give them more workload than they can manage. If you do all of those things, and then tell people they can bring that puppy to the office or say, look, we've paid for a mindfulness app, then what you're doing there is actually that's wrong, right. And I think most people who've got any experience of well being or anyone with half a brain would look at that and say, Well, yeah, that's your papering over the cracks. So this is not it's not an acceptable way of operating. And the Oxford study is basically, in my view, making the assumption that that's what all companies are doing. If you're offering a mindfulness app, then you're just papering over the cracks of the damage that you've already caused your people. And I just don't think that's right, because I think I work with a lot of global employers, and a lot of them have, I would describe as very positive cultures of well being, that do an awful lot to take care of their people that do all the things we've mentioned are important, they structure their organisations to the best they can in the right way. But if you work in a customer service role, you will still get a customer that will wind you up and upset you, even in the most positive environment that you could work in. I'm sure if you work at Disneyland, somebody's going to piss you off at some point. And so we've all got this kind of barometer for how much you can deal with when you might kind of snap back at a customer gets stressed. I mean, I've worked for the company for 13 years that I worked for at the moment. And I've been very engaged there, what I would actually say probably one of the most engaged employees for that entire length of time. And the reason why I've been there for so long, doesn't mean that I haven't had days where I felt really overwhelmed and stressed by my job, in many cases that brought on by myself and the standard that I hold myself to. So I make myself stressed. And so to say that if you have a really good organisation that does all the right things, you will not have any well being issues, I think doesn't take into account the fact that stress is actually part of our lives and part of our work lives. And even in the best environments, that's not going to disappear. But also that people will hold themselves accountable, people will burn out through sometimes their own causes or the the research houses and mostly organisational issues that cause that. But you know, high performers are at high risk of wellbeing, because again, they tend to held themselves more accountable. They delegate less they take on more work, they don't like to say no to people. And so, you know, to say that, you know, putting mindfulness in place, and not doing all this structural stuff, I get that. But mindfulness and doing the structure stuff is really good. I mean, mindfulness is one of the most evidenced wellbeing initiatives that we have, not just at the workplace. But anyway, you know, it's a huge, huge body of evidence to prove how effective that is at managing anxiety, symptoms of depression, lowering heart rates, reducing cardiovascular risk, all these great things. So for us to just draw a line through that through one study and say, You know what, I don't think workplace wellbeing works, it's a combination of all the things we've talked about. The opposite would be true, if you did all the organisational structure stuff, right, but didn't help people manage stress, you would still have some issues to solve. So I think it's a combination of all these things. And clearly, there's some priority over the things you should be doing first versus less. But I think for us to look at one study and throw all of our wellbeing strategies out is mistaken. I think, the attention that particular study has had, I think that risks happen. And I think people start to realise this is actually this is not worth investing in. And I think that'd be a big mistake.

Bethany: 24:32

I'm still surprised that 99% are affected, just because not all 99% are super, I guess, maybe it's just like, I feel like I'm special. And I'm specially you know burnt out because I'm a high achiever and I'm a woman and dealing with a lot of feelings of being excluded or have been felt excluded in my life. So one I guess we haven't talked about the DI side of things and there's when you are actively just terminated against there's a massive toll on your body. And I think that's something that we should talk about as part of the structures that we should put in place for everybody. Anyone

Gethin Nadin: 25:10

who belongs to a marginalised group tends to have mental health that's worse than the general population, and has it experiences at work that have affected their well being. Social exclusion is an incredibly important contributor to poor mental health amongst loads of different protected and marginalised groups in society. And so when we don't include people, and we actively exclude them, that has a really significant impact. But it's not just about inclusion and diversity. It's about again, what policies and structure are we putting in place that better serve those traditionally marginalised groups? And so if we just take two examples, so women have been sexually harassed, which you've looked at the data is Yeah, everyone. Yeah, exactly, yeah. And so when you start to look at how organisations are structured, if you look at things like sexual harassment policies, ensuring that they're in place, and they're worded in such a way, that they help to contribute to a culture, where women feel safe to speak up about the experience that they have in work, that they don't fear that by speaking up about their manager that's going to be held against them, or they're going to be demoted for it, and all these kinds of terrible things that tend to happen when women do speak up. So again, that's a structural change that needs to take place, and quite a big one in most companies, because most companies aren't currently set up for that. But again, it's a policy thing. It's not an app that you can go out and buy. It's a policy change need to make, which is, what kind of manager am I going to employ? I mean, a really good example of a workplace where this is really complicated at the moment is the UK police force. So the UK police force has come under a huge amount of fire recently, for the structure of racism, misogyny, that has been deeply bedded into the police force in the UK, numerous different independent reports have found this out. We've had fairly high profile, active ranking police officers that have been fired over the last couple of years because of the way that they've treated women or because they've raped women, or murdered women, or

Bethany: 26:58

beaten their wives. And everybody's just looked the other way. Yeah.

Gethin Nadin: 27:02

And so that's a really good environment where actually, if you ask the women why they didn't speak up, or why they didn't say anything, one of the most common answers is, I thought it was part of this kind of laddish behaviour that was expected in the police force. And it was just banter. I was a junior officer, and I didn't feel like I could speak up. So culturally, there's a huge shift happening. And this is happening in lots of big institutions, historic institutions around the world. But a really good example of that doesn't just change overnight, you don't just sit in front of your women who work with you and say, Oh, just speak up. If it happens, and we'll do something about it, you have to demonstrate that you are a capable and willing to do something about it. So hold those people who have been historically had complaints against them to task and move them out of the organisation. And, again, some of that stuff can take time, it was really complicated. But if you're a woman at the end of any one of those kinds of negative experiences that we've just talked about, your mental health would have declined because of that. So if you really want to help the mental health of your staff, you've got to focus on half your population, which will be women. And you've got to focus on the things that are holding women back in the workplace. And that's one of the many examples unfortunately, that's happening, but it starts to show how kind of complex it can get. But certainly diversity inclusion plays a role. And I guess if you take another issue like trans inclusion, you don't just recruit trans people into your organisation, you have to create a culture that is welcoming and safe for trans employees before they will come and work with you. And so again, you have to think about how you write policies, what additional policies you're putting in place, maybe down to the benefits that you're offering, you know, will you include gender reassignment surgery as part of your health insurance, you know, all these kinds of things that you need to consider. But you create a safe and welcoming environment for different diverse people, so that they will want to come and work with you and their mental health and overall health won't suffer because of the way that they've been treated probably from historically and previously other organisations.

Bethany: 28:51

And also, one of the things that I find quite difficult is, and this is maybe a bit of our question of round, like, how much is the company's responsibility, versus taking on responsibility, that's actually societal. A certain amount of at least my experience with dei is around this. And trans rights would definitely be part of this of within an organisation, you hope to act better than the outside world and not to be a microcosm of society within the business. But actually, as a leader, it becomes very quickly apparent that even if your policies are right, your intentions are better than societies you want to be as inclusive as possible. We are all companies that are made up of people who are in these societies, unconscious bias. Ways we act internalised misogyny within women, as much as men internalised racism within people of colour as much as white people means that actually acting in the right way and being better than society becomes very difficult and it becomes a question of what can we do without getting so disillusioned? We can't do anything anymore? Versus what changes can we make outside of work? I'm

Gethin Nadin: 30:08

a big believer in the power of the workplace, I think in many instances is stronger than the state. I think in most countries, the state has been failing people for about the last decade, across the various different measures. Another case that if you look at the US, and you look at the overturning of Roe vs. Wade, as soon as that happened, huge numbers of big employers across the US came out and said, if you work for me, and you're a woman that needs to have an abortion, I will give you the time off to have that abortion. And I will give you the funding so that you can go and travel to a state where it is legal and have that done safely. And so what you start to see is these examples of employers stepping up and actually turning against, in that example, the US government and saying the decision you've made, I don't want that to happen in my four walls. I don't think that was the right decision to make. We've seen the same thing with Disney standing up to lawmakers in Florida about LGBTQ plus inclusion. We've done similar things when Donald Trump decided to try and go on this kind of anti immigrant pathway as soon as he came into power. And people like Patagonia stood up and said, You know what, actually, if you want access to our lawyers for free to fight your case, we're going to give you that because we support you. And so I think there's these growing numbers, examples where employers are becoming almost activists against some of the government decisions that are being made, because they want to better protect their employees and create this safe space. And I think it's really clever, because it's morally the right thing to do, in my view. But also, when you look at most people, most people actually want to work in a diverse environment. Because most people were nowadays younger people especially, were brought up in in diverse environments, they lived in largely diverse schools and communities. And so they want the workplace to represent that. And so if you look at most of the data, most people want to work in a diverse environment, even if they're not in a diverse group themselves. And so that's kind of part of it. But also, I think one of the things that we kind of need to get some managers over and some leaders over is actually what the business drivers for this. So put in kind of morality to one side, there is a whole host of data that tells us that actually diverse groups and diverse teams are more productive and more innovative, they collaborate more. And we can see kind of things like shareholder turns and profits and investor returns all linked to more diverse teams. And I do wonder if more managers understood that their performance relied on their team didn't become individually diverse, whether they would start to change,

Brandon M: 32:29

it feels like in 2024, the social contract between employees and employers has changed. And I think there's a lot of ketchup happening with people's mindsets. And in particular, you know, even talking about inclusivity. Right now, this question of where corporate responsibility starts to tail off and personal responsibility starts to kick in. I think that goal line has now shifted this question of wrapping leaders minds around the fact that the world has shifted, and that they need to now shift to company that and spend on that, this is always where we get caught out, I think, which is, hey, we're a company, we're responsible for A, B, and C, D, and F is not our job, and it's not our responsibility. And we're gonna leave that aside. It's not business. So therefore, we're not going to spend money on that, in particular, if we're trying to be profitable companies with margins, and we want to return on investment to your point around how do we achieve that? And what is worthwhile investing in from a corporate standpoint, how to approach this this new world and investing in things that actually do in fact, matter for the bottom line? So

Gethin Nadin: 33:25

I think the answer was in the question. So if you're a profit making business, if you're trying to generate revenue and shareholder return, then it your reason for being is whatever gets you to that point, right. And what we're saying through all of this, is, there's a different way and a new, better way to get to that same point. And it doesn't mean putting too much pressure on people, it doesn't mean excluding people, it's not putting money before people actually, there's an enhanced route to profitability by investing in people first. And a huge amount of data to back this up that. I mean, I did some work pre the second book to really look at what people strategies around the world were designed for, before the pandemic, and what a successful business looks like, kind of through and following the pandemic. And what I've generally found out is that most old people strategies were designed for the employer. So it was how do you use your investment in people to better serve the company? Now, when you look at the outline of a modern progressive business that is also successful, they tend to be designed for the employee. So they like basically saying, How do I give the employee everything they need to be successful, and then they will be successful. And so all this heavy evidence is saying that's actually the modern, more effective way to create a profit generating or successful company, by whatever measure you want to pick of each of those things that might mean success for you as a company. And so that means actually this kind of people centred environment that we've been hearing a lot over the last couple of years the idea that if I put the person at the centre of my business if I help them solve problems, if I make them feel well and included unsafe, then everything else will go into place. And I think that's what many leaders are grappling with is, that's not the way they were brought up. That's not the way they were taught to manage. You know, when I was a manager, you know, you were the highest paid, most influential person in the team, take a sports team, right, you can take one of your sports team out, and your sports players will be more famous and well known and well paid than the coach will be. And we just don't necessarily look at it in the same way in the workplace.

Brandon M: 35:26

I think there's a really important point here to be made, because I feel like we want the best operational practices for our company. So is a line manager being highly effective being a line manager? Is there clarity in roles who responsibility, there's all sorts of standard operational practices that we think deeply about to achieve success for companies and that corporate responsibility line where we now are thinking about a wellness programme for crisis intervention, whereby that person's relationship with our partners going off the rails, so somehow, the company is now responsible for that this is where the rubber hits the road a little bit? Because intuitively, it doesn't make sense to me, why would I be responsible for somebody whose partner whatever the relationship, that's not a company issue, that's their personal issue. But what we're seeing now is that with wellness, that is directly what it starts to address in this case, and the reason why that's useful. And I can answer this question myself right now, but I'll pass it do. Why is that useful?

Bethany: 36:20

It might not be a company's responsibility. But it's also okay, maybe to teach mindfulness or have mindfulness apps, resilience, and basically give people a bit of perspective. And Brendan, I'm talking about a bit of like, what you're talking about, of maybe your example of had a fight with a partner or breaking up with a partner, and it's suddenly the business's responsibility? I don't think it is, although, even if I cast my mind back to a horrific breakup that I had it 23 or whatever, in 2003, I had a couple of days off work unofficially, because I was just like in meltdown stage, and I think businesses do treat you like very confused young people, early in your careers. And throughout, I'm just wandering now with loads of ideas and thoughts. And I'll get to my question in a second, I hope. I guess for me one is have things actually changed that much are we just always we've been humans at work. And we treat each other like humans. And some businesses are better at treating people like humans than others. And now we have more words for it. And now we can offer something called mindfulness, which is basically a way of finding perspective, and resilience. And that helps our employees at work. And it also helps our employees as people outside of work. And that's good for everyone. Whether or not it's our responsibility, no question thoughts.

Gethin Nadin: 37:46

I don't really care if somebody thinks it's their responsibility or not, I believe it is. And I believe if they don't pay attention to that, and the heavy evidence we now have, that it makes a difference to your organisation by any number of success measures, that if you take care of your people, you get better results, regardless of what industry you're in, or what success looks like for you. I think it would be a mistake to ignore that. I think any employee that says no, it's too paternalistic. I mean, let's look at any relationship you might have in your life, right? I think the employer employee is a relationship, you would measure some of your best friends by how they rallied around. So if you set your example Beth, you know, the people who said that breakup was pretty tough on you. And I know that, what can I do for you, let's take you out for a coffee, let's go on a night out, let's go away for the weekend. You know, I'm here to talk. The people that were not there for you, then who stayed silent through that tough time, they're the people you start to question, are these really friends? Or are these just performative people in my life, that actually, when it came to the crunch, they weren't there for me? What happened during the pandemic, and we've got a lot of data to back this up, is people started thinking like that about their employer. So for the first time ever, we had this really good case study, which is actually, if it all ended now. Am I happy with my life. And people had this period of quiet reflection, where lots of people came to the conclusion that I wouldn't be happy what I'm doing with the person I'm doing it for. And so the reason why we had that kind of great resignation was driven by the idea that lots of people said, Do you know what if I die tomorrow, and this is how my last day ended? I don't want to be working for this asshole. I don't want to be working for this shitty company. And I think that's the decisions lots of people made, which we can see in the US in particular, the number of people that's following the tail end the pandemic, that quit their job without another job to go to hit record highs were those people basically saying, You know what, no job is worth my mental health. I'm putting myself first and I'm going to quit and and we saw that happen a great deal. And even in the UK. Now, if you look at the recession we've gone into people are still quite comfortable leaving jobs, even though finding their next one might not be as easy as it once was. And so people are really prioritising themselves. And I think to Brandon's earlier point about the social contract. I think it hasn't changed. I think it's broken down. You know, the deal was you go to work, and you'll be able to put a roof over your head. he about to get a mortgage you about to put food in your belly, and do all the things that are fun trappings of modern life, like go on holiday and go on day trips and buy nice clothes or whatever the happy looks like to you. And for millions, hundreds of millions of people, that's not happening anymore. And so if the deal would you go to work, and you work really hard, and you get all these just desserts and stuff, then that's great. But actually, if you look at most people, most people no longer believe that if they work hard, they will get the rewards that their parents did, we can go into this whole conversation about capitalism and the distribution of that and all that kind of stuff. But generally speaking, that contract is broken down, because I'm just not getting the stuff from work anymore. But then when you overlay that with what do people want from work, our own research of benefits found globally, we spoke to 7000 people in six different countries, the number one thing they said they were looking for from a new employer was a commitment to well being this idea that I want to be working for the right person when the next pandemic comes along. So they do all the right things by me. So I'm not working for the company that my friend did, who actually made them take a pay cut and kind of made some terrible decisions for them. And so I think that's really, really interesting, where we're happening. And where we are at the moment with that is that actually, people are expecting more from their employer, and the employer has to meet those expectations, because you won't get the best talent, and the best talent tend to have the most options. So they're not going to choose the rubbish employers, they're going to gravitate towards the really progressive ones that if like you, Beth, they go through a breakup or a divorce and life gets difficult. The employer says, You know what, you're a great employee, you've done loads for us, whatever you need, take the time you need, how are we going to help you want to do that. And when you're back on your feet, you come back to work, and everything's great again, and why wouldn't want to work with that person.

Bethany: 41:39

And also, one of the things that I find really interesting, having made the transition from being a bit more of a get back to work kind of manager to a more supportive bring my whole self to work, and it's okay for you to bring your whole self to work manager leader is that it's just a lot more rewarding, to make real connections, and to build an environment that people want to be in and that you want to be in, and that you see people as humans, and we're all just working together to a common goal. And as a leader, it lowers your stress to not have to put on this mantle of something that either you don't believe in, or pushing people needlessly, it's just for our listeners out there, I'd encourage them whether or not you're changing the policies, because not everybody is an HR leader, just be a little bit more human at work and see how it makes you feel. I

Brandon M: 42:33

can imagine Bethany, you know, you 20 years ago, just being a phenomenal individual contributor, I would want to give you every possible tool to allow you to flourish within the organisation, whether it's personal or professional, which gets to this idea of well being right. So if Bethany is going through a breakup right now, I'd want to make sure you have everything that you need to respond, because it has a dramatic impact on the professional because if you're off for two days, or a week, or whatever, and this is not a time based thing that I'm talking about. But just generally speaking, I want you to be hugely successful, and I want the company to be successful and whatever tooling is required to make that happen. Let's do that. Let's optimise for that. Man. I think that's kind of what you're saying. Yes. And the

Gethin Nadin: 43:10

the optimization, I think is a really key word here as well, because historically, employers have been very good at mitigating risk. So if Beth 20 years ago, had broken her leg and couldn't come to work, you might have some kind of health insurance that would kick it in. Because the idea is what I've got, I want you back at work as quickly as possible, because I don't have somebody to backfill, and that's going to cost me money. So I'll put health insurance in place to protect me as the employer as well as you to make sure that you get the best care and you get back to work and you're working effectively as quickly as possible. It's a different side of the same coin, we're looking at, basically, what do I need to do to get that person back to performing and it's, if any of us even the most archaic view of any old manager that if you had a great employee that was working for you, and the quality started to slip, and actually had a really good example of this with a customer, I worked with a financial services firm in Scotland, they had a really good employee been there for about three or four years high performing employee quality and output started to decline. They had a few performance conversations, the manager went to HR and said, look, we've got to get rid of this guy, he's just not performing any more. And they sat down with them and said, There must be a reason for this, you know, this, this was a high performance before now isn't. And so the Employee Relations team took over and they started having a few kind of sessions with him. And it turned out to be a divorce he, his wife had left him he was finding it really difficult to manage. And so they basically agreed with him that they would give him a I think three to six months off paid to deal with his mental health. They offered him lots of other support as well. He then came back and within 12 months was not just back to being the great performing employee again, but ended up becoming the manager of the team that he was once a part of. So very successful individual. Now most people would not push through that barrier to invest in people but the view there was he was a very good employee and with the right health mercy will be a very good employee again, and actually that's a much much Is your transition to go through them to get that somebody out and get somebody back in because employees appreciate and assets, you know, they hit their optimum levels really about two years if you listen to what people like Josh Burson says, so somebody had been there for three years and was high performing, you'd be mad to let that person go. But what you're basically saying is we're actually with a few tweaks and a little bit of time, we can get this person to performing as good as they were. And in my world, when we talk about employee wellbeing, we are talking about how do we optimise people? So it's not always about how do you mitigate risk. So you've got someone in crisis, I need to solve them. Actually, most employees don't have their mental health problem. Most employees aren't so stressed out, they can't handle it. Yeah, 80 percentage of employees are just what we call kind of languishing. They're not massively happy, but they're not massively unhappy, or Ill either. But with a few tweaks, we can actually get them to what we call employee function, which is actually right and get them to sleep a little bit better, if I can get their relationships to be a bit better. If I can get them to be a little bit less worried about the pressures life is putting on them, I actually get a lot more out of them as a team manager, and as a CEO, I start to optimise people more. And they really benefit from that too. And mindfulness is one of those tools that really starts to optimise people, I think there's the back, trying full circle where we started. That's an example of something that actually optimises people. So it's such a big area. And it's really like kind of complex, but I think most managers aren't privy to the kind of data and conversations we've had today, most people aren't sitting down with their managers and saying what you did Beth, which is actually joke, if we expose a little bit of vulnerability, and we take a little bit of time, or a bit more patient and kind of with people that actually leads to better organisation output. You know, we're still thinking this 1970s, Peter Drucker, which is, you know, businesses operate for profit, and they don't do anything else, you know, I'm actually really interested in, especially when you look at environmental, social government, and a kind of CSR activities, the role that wellbeing plays in that to the better treatment of people and the impact it has on society. Because I really believe that the more an employer can invest in a great employee experience at work, the better societies and communities that we live in, do because of that. And there's some really interesting research I pulled together for the book around fathers who get good quality and frequent recognition in the workplace, have better relationships with their children, one study that looked at communities in the in Australia, where if you could improve the employee experience of people living in a different house, in one street, you started to actually see them to start displaying more community based activities. So they cooked for each other, they had more parties and barbecues, and invited each other to cook outs and things like that. And so you can actually start to see the role that the employer plays. And I think if you take again, like the pressure on the NHS, the National Health Service in the UK at the moment, the question I asked lots of my customers, lots of talks I do is, if the employer is not going to take care of your well being who is and to try and illustrate this for a conference talk I've got coming up in a couple of months, I timed how long it would take me to do certain things at government level versus if I went to my employer to ask for the same help. And recently was left waiting for 35 minutes to try and get a doctor's appointment on the National Health Service actually gave up before they even answered the phone. Yeah, through my health insurance through my employer, I was able to get a video Doctor meeting within 15 minutes. The only reason to wait 15 minutes was for them to set the call up effectively, you know, it kind of got agreed within minutes. And we see the same thing with loads of the benefits most employers offer, they can get you access to a counsellor tomorrow, whereas on the NHS, your current waiting time is six months plus. And so again, it started to see like actually, who would you rather work for the employer, they did all those things, or the ones that just left you to their own devices and said, Sorry, Beth, I know your mental health has been shot the ship because of that breakup, but you're on your own? Why would you work with that person? It's

Bethany: 48:44

interesting that just for those examples that you've given that basically, as employers, we have the ability to create the world that we can't vote our government to creating for us. We're rapidly running out of time guessing. And so just want to ask our final question, which is we've covered so many topics today. If our listeners were going to take one thing away from our chat, what would that be?

Gethin Nadin: 49:12

I think it'd be exactly what you said, I think a lot of this stuff is structural, it can be expensive and timely to change. And I think lots of companies, as I mentioned, are on that journey from kind of really not progressive and quite ancient to really progressive and we can all present the data and try and encourage more employers to invest in that and link it to CSR and ESG and investor activity and consumer activity. We can do all these great things. But in most organisations, that might not be you the listener today, it might be somebody else who's making those decisions. You know, I have no influence, but everybody listening has the kind of influence that you talked about Beth, which is I can treat people with a little bit more kindness, I can be there for my team members. I can give them a little space so somebody's qualities slipped or they get a bit angry with me where they weren't necessarily angry before. I can may be kind of understand that life weighs heavy on people, sometimes, especially at the moment. And so giving people a bit more grace and space and just being a bit kinder just makes the world of difference. My mother has been recently diagnosed with Alzheimer's. And I've read, that's probably the biggest wellbeing challenge I've ever had. And I've really struggled with that. But I'd been really open with my team about whether it's a good day, and it's a bad day, and just making them aware of not necessarily all the details, but the challenges that exist in my life. Because I know that if I don't do that, they won't feel able to and trust to open up to me. And if they don't open up to me, I can't be a better manager for them. If I know more about what's challenging them, I can put some things in place or make some decisions that will better serve them. And a really good example of how somebody did that recently, is when my dad was really overwhelmed with this diagnosis. He really wanted some time away. So me and my brother took my dad away for a couple of days, took him to London just for a couple of days out. When my brother's boss found out about that. He said, Oh, what you're going to London for explained, we're taking my dad away to give him a break from caring for my mom. And the boss was like, I hope you're not taking that for annual leave, don't mark that as holiday, you have those two days. It's not a policy change. It's not that HR didn't get involved CEO didn't get involved. It was one manager saying the right thing here is this person shouldn't be given up. They're on holiday just to care for somebody that it's not their fault that it's happened. And that's the essence I think of what we're trying to do with most people is just give people a break and treat them with a little bit more empathy and kindness.

Brandon M: 51:28

So thank you again for joining us on the operations drove and I really appreciate this conversation because I feel like some of the macro trends that we've talked about on the podcast are really kind of connected some dots for me that closed off some open ended questions that I had in my head to be honest, and I just really appreciate the time that we spent today. So if you like what you hear, please subscribe or leave us a comment and we will see you next week.