80. Navigating Through an Uncertain World
In this episode we discuss: Navigating through an uncertain world. We are joined by Jillian Reilly, Author, Global change facilitator, Keynote speaker, and International aid veteran.
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- We chat about the following with Jillian Reilly:
- What does it really take to be an effective facilitator of change within an organisation?
- How can operators lead confidently in uncertainty without overpromising outcomes?
- When should leaders rely on intuition over data—and how do they build that instinct?
- Can resilience be intentionally developed, or is it only forged through hardship?
- How do you balance empathy with accountability when leading teams through tough transitions?
References
- https://www.linkedin.com/in/jillianreilly/
- https://jillreilly.substack.com/
- www.tenpermissions.com
Biography
Jillian Reilly is a founder, writer, keynote speaker, and consultant with 30 years’ experience in social, organisational, and personal change across Africa, Asia, and Central Europe. She helps people navigate change and accelerate growth, and is the author of The Ten Permissions (forthcoming), which challenges outdated approaches to adult life in the 21st century. Her memoir, Shame: Confessions of an Aid Worker in Africa, reflects on her early career in international development. Jillian’s work has been featured in the Washington Post, Newsweek, and the LA Times, and her TEDx talk Vain Aid offers insights from the aid industry. She also created the Courageous Conversations podcast, funded by the Ford Foundation, spotlighting African activists.
To learn more about Beth and Brandon or to find out about sponsorship opportunities click here.
Summary
00:06:10 – Becoming a change facilitator
00:08:43 – Leading in uncertainty
00:10:46 – Trusting intuition
00:14:19 – Navigating profound change
00:18:29 – Leading without a grand vision
00:22:40 – Building resilience
00:28:15 – Reframing setbacks
00:35:50 – Holding onto purpose
00:42:10 – Empathy vs. accountability
00:44:05 – Final reflections
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Transcript
Hello everyone and welcome to
Speaker:another episode of the operations
Speaker:room a podcast for COOs.
Speaker:I am Brandon Medsinga joined by my
Speaker:lovely co-host Bethany Ayers.
Speaker:How are things going Bethany?
Speaker:I'm really tired.
Speaker:It's Friday.
Speaker:It's been really hot.
Speaker:I know we're in London and this is
Speaker:basically what Londoners do as soon
Speaker:as it gets over 25 degrees,
Speaker:which is what 80 something in
Speaker:America.
Speaker:Yeah, yeah, I mean, legitimately,
Speaker:we've had a pretty hot run,
Speaker:I would say, you know, 30 degree
Speaker:plus weather for four
Speaker:days in a row.
Speaker:I mean it was pretty brutal.
Speaker:Like I think night number three,
Speaker:French doors are open in the master
Speaker:bedroom and it was as hot outside as
Speaker:it was inside and there was no
Speaker:breeze. So there was it was just
Speaker:boiling.
Speaker:It was horrible, there's
Speaker:no relief from it.
Speaker:So anyhow, exhausted,
Speaker:not sleeping.
Speaker:It's finally cooled down and
Speaker:then went to a
Speaker:COO round table dinner last night.
Speaker:It was a sass one.
Speaker:Oh, the SAS one.
Speaker:Oh, I missed out.
Speaker:Okay. I had my all-hands last night,
Speaker:so we had drinks after the all-hand,
Speaker:so that was my preoccupation.
Speaker:It was in a new restaurant.
Speaker:I mean, because normally we go to
Speaker:Zetter House or Zetter Townhouse
Speaker:in Farringdon.
Speaker:And this one was Art
Speaker:Yard and Bar,
Speaker:just south of Blackfriars
Speaker:in a brand new hotel, a brand-new
Speaker:Marriott.
Speaker:The food was excellent, because with
Speaker:a hotel you're never quite sure, but
Speaker:this was on the side of good food.
Speaker:And we did our introductions.
Speaker:So I went to a dinner two weeks
Speaker:ago. I haven't been to a diner in
Speaker:about six months, and then I've gone
Speaker:to two in two weeks.
Speaker:And so in that one, which was just a
Speaker:more general COO
Speaker:round table, we did introductions.
Speaker:And when it got to me, I just said,
Speaker:oh, and co-host
Speaker:of a podcast, I'm not sure if
Speaker:anybody here is a listener, and
Speaker:everybody raised their hands.
Speaker:And so I was like, okay, I
Speaker:don't need to introduce myself then.
Speaker:So I'll just go on to
Speaker:news. Anyhow, at this dinner,
Speaker:I kind of said the same thing and
Speaker:everybody stared at me blankly other
Speaker:than a couple listeners.
Speaker:Anyhow, that I did my intro, the
Speaker:next person, blah blah blah.
Speaker:And the person sitting next to me
Speaker:afterwards said, Oh, I've
Speaker:just discovered your podcast and
Speaker:really loving it.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:And then I didn't even think to
Speaker:ask this question.
Speaker:Somebody else did later on.
Speaker:It was like, how did you find the
Speaker:podcast chat?
Speaker:GPT really?
Speaker:Yeah. I know.
Speaker:How exciting is that?
Speaker:Ah, SCO going on here on
Speaker:Chachi BT.
Speaker:Yeah, but yeah, it's better than
Speaker:SEO, isn't it? So he put in,
Speaker:what podcast should I listen to as a
Speaker:COO and we
Speaker:This is actually really good when I
Speaker:think about it. I mean, just more
Speaker:broadly, obviously Google AdWords
Speaker:and keywords, all that's going to
Speaker:die, you know, pretty shortly,
Speaker:I think. So chat GPT discovery,
Speaker:if we're like the premier podcast
Speaker:being presented back to people,
Speaker:that's fabulous.
Speaker:We didn't even know how we did it!
Speaker:I suspect, but the fact that we
Speaker:did the custom GPT some time
Speaker:back, we loaded all of our content
Speaker:in there and they've obviously
Speaker:sucked that back into the vortex of
Speaker:OpenAI.
Speaker:So I suspect they're somehow knowing
Speaker:that we exist and therefore they're
Speaker:presenting it back to people.
Speaker:Any other action in the Bethany
Speaker:rule?
Speaker:So it was announced this week
Speaker:that I'm leaving peak because
Speaker:I'm living in two weeks in
Speaker:a day. So it's quite good to have
Speaker:that news out there.
Speaker:That's lovely. Yeah, that's great.
Speaker:The announcement is out.
Speaker:It's like something off your chest a
Speaker:little bit. You can now talk about
Speaker:it with people
Speaker:I can talk about it and I am
Speaker:immediately irrelevant.
Speaker:This is clearly how
Speaker:lame duck presidents feel.
Speaker:As soon as they know that you're not
Speaker:coming back, it just doesn't matter.
Speaker:I had a one-to-one with somebody
Speaker:where normally the one- to-one is
Speaker:jam-packed with so much content
Speaker:and trying to sort through stuff and
Speaker:we barely fit it all into an hour.
Speaker:I met on this Wednesday and
Speaker:15 minutes in, yeah,
Speaker:I'm done. I don't have anything
Speaker:else. We chatted a little more
Speaker:for another.
Speaker:10 minutes, and that was it.
Speaker:Yeah, so now my
Speaker:power is gone, my wisdom is
Speaker:gone.
Speaker:So it made me laugh, but then
Speaker:it gave me a bit of extra time back
Speaker:at the end of the day, so I wasn't
Speaker:complaining.
Speaker:I'm going up to Manchester next
Speaker:week and the week after, and
Speaker:then that'll be it, and whether or
Speaker:not I ever go to Manchester again.
Speaker:I wasn't t planning on leaving
Speaker:drinks, but somebody in my team
Speaker:insisted, so there might be leaving
Speaker:drinks with three or four people,
Speaker:and then hand in my computer on
Speaker:the Friday and I'm done.
Speaker:Okay, so you're giving back the
Speaker:laptop. I feel like somehow, I don't
Speaker:know how I've managed this, every
Speaker:company I've ever left, I always
Speaker:leave with a laptop.
Speaker:Not because I'm stealing it, but
Speaker:because somehow it's part of the
Speaker:package.
Speaker:I have the one from the last time
Speaker:I left Peak.
Speaker:I don't need yet another one.
Speaker:And then I'll get a new one very
Speaker:shortly. So I feel like
Speaker:I have one that will tide me over.
Speaker:Yeah, I cascade them down through
Speaker:the family. So my wife has, you
Speaker:know, one of my former laptops.
Speaker:So my husband cannot handle
Speaker:a Mac, just having
Speaker:the buttons on the other side.
Speaker:So he's actually like a PC user, is
Speaker:that what you're saying?
Speaker:I know isn't that incredible with
Speaker:somebody who chooses to use
Speaker:the Microsoft world.
Speaker:It really does date people, like all
Speaker:sorts of things to date people these
Speaker:days. You know, like the latest one
Speaker:that we had spoken with some time
Speaker:back, but like, if you're not on
Speaker:Notion, knowing Notion using Notion
Speaker:you're yesterday's news, you know?
Speaker:Yeah, I mean, I think it either
Speaker:dates people or just is corporate
Speaker:people because corporates
Speaker:only use.
Speaker:Team.
Speaker:Fucking teams.
Speaker:Yeah. And they all,
Speaker:yeah, they're all in this Microsoft
Speaker:world.
Speaker:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker:Somebody was asking me, so they use
Speaker:MS Teams and I guess the chat that's
Speaker:part of MS Teams and they were just
Speaker:about to move to Slack and they're
Speaker:all very nervous.
Speaker:Like what are you nervous about?
Speaker:Like Slack is 8,000 times better and
Speaker:way easier to use and
Speaker:yeah, you'll be loving it in no
Speaker:time.
Speaker:UiPath uses, is all Microsoft
Speaker:everything, but uses Slack.
Speaker:Yeah, that just goes to show you how
Speaker:shit Teams is.
Speaker:We've got a great topic for today,
Speaker:which is navigating through an
Speaker:uncertain world.
Speaker:We have an amazing guest for this,
Speaker:which is Gillian Reilly.
Speaker:She's the author of The 10
Speaker:Permissions.
Speaker:And she is a speaker and
Speaker:change facilitator as well.
Speaker:So before we get to Gillian, I
Speaker:just wanted to walk through her 10
Speaker:permissions and just reflect back
Speaker:on our conversation with her and see
Speaker:what we think.
Speaker:All right, so let's start with
Speaker:number one, because that's where we
Speaker:actually spent the majority of our
Speaker:time with Gillian as well, I think
Speaker:that you were most interested in.
Speaker:So the first permission is to be
Speaker:willful, which is what do I
Speaker:want to do now, not what
Speaker:do others expect of me.
Speaker:Oftentimes with operations leaders,
Speaker:we are often in service of others,
Speaker:whether it's the CEO, the wider
Speaker:company, and we're just
Speaker:fulfilling expectations of what
Speaker:people want from us for the most
Speaker:part, as opposed to really asking
Speaker:ourselves, like, what do we think
Speaker:would be most beneficial for the
Speaker:company? That is an intro,
Speaker:what's your take on that?
Speaker:So I actually have a story that's
Speaker:a bit relevant and almost
Speaker:operational.
Speaker:As yesterday, I had a conversation
Speaker:with somebody who
Speaker:has the opportunity to
Speaker:become a COO,
Speaker:but is trying to decide whether or
Speaker:not they want to.
Speaker:It's a switch within the company.
Speaker:And it was a bit of what is a
Speaker:CO O? Do I have the skills?
Speaker:Is it possible?
Speaker:And I of course pointed them in the
Speaker:direction of the podcast and episode
Speaker:number one of what does the COO.
Speaker:It's an amazing opportunity.
Speaker:And you can see that they wanted to
Speaker:do it.
Speaker:But they just had to create all of
Speaker:these reasons why
Speaker:they shouldn't, or how it could go
Speaker:wrong, or how this needs to be a
Speaker:decision to make.
Speaker:And after we talked for about 45, 50
Speaker:minutes, I basically told them that.
Speaker:I was like, you clearly want to do
Speaker:it, you light up when you talk
Speaker:about it, it's handed to you on
Speaker:a silver platter.
Speaker:Why invent reasons why you
Speaker:shouldn't?
Speaker:I think when you join companies, you
Speaker:have this duality happening
Speaker:slightly, which is, you know that
Speaker:you need to prove yourself.
Speaker:So when it comes to the CEO, the
Speaker:leadership team, the water company,
Speaker:you need exercise kind of chops
Speaker:and also some visibility
Speaker:projects to make people feel
Speaker:like, yeah, this guy's on it
Speaker:or this gal's on it and she knows
Speaker:what she's doing and there's value
Speaker:being created there.
Speaker:And it's kind of like what's being
Speaker:asked of you more than anything
Speaker:else, right?
Speaker:So for example, for myself, there
Speaker:was a clear mandate for, here are
Speaker:the five things, Brandon, that I
Speaker:think you need to focus on at the
Speaker:outset. So you obviously need to do
Speaker:that and take that seriously.
Speaker:On the parallel side of things,
Speaker:when I joined these companies, it's
Speaker:always about the end goal, which
Speaker:is, I'm getting an equity grant.
Speaker:I want that to be transformational
Speaker:for the company, but also for
Speaker:myself. What does Brandon think
Speaker:needs to get done in this business
Speaker:to get us there, basically?
Speaker:And that parallel track.
Speaker:Is what I want and what I think is
Speaker:best for the company basically and
Speaker:trying to like take those two dual
Speaker:roles and do what is
Speaker:right for the business over a time
Speaker:period.
Speaker:I think it's always like the
Speaker:challenge I think for operators and
Speaker:for myself as well.
Speaker:Number two, go astray.
Speaker:Allow yourself to explore outside
Speaker:your defined role or identity.
Speaker:What do we make of that?
Speaker:I think that is the role of COO,
Speaker:right? That's why we like it, is
Speaker:that we can stick our noses into any
Speaker:part of the business, be
Speaker:flexible, explore,
Speaker:not be sidelined or
Speaker:contained within one discipline,
Speaker:siloed into one discipline.
Speaker:I think it's like one of those
Speaker:things early in my career
Speaker:I didn't like because the
Speaker:marketing person was a marketing
Speaker:person and you knew where they were
Speaker:gonna go. The salesperson was a
Speaker:salesperson and here I was.
Speaker:Jack-of-all-trades, master-of none
Speaker:type thing, and how do I label
Speaker:myself, and I don't fit in,
Speaker:and what's my path?
Speaker:And then, as always,
Speaker:your weakness, your biggest
Speaker:weakness, and biggest strength are
Speaker:either side of the same one.
Speaker:And so as I got more senior,
Speaker:my ability to do everything and
Speaker:understand it all actually became
Speaker:my superpower, rather than
Speaker:hard to form a
Speaker:career path or an identity.
Speaker:Next one is feel your way, so
Speaker:use your emotions and intuition as
Speaker:valid decision making tools.
Speaker:Don't create all of these
Speaker:intellectual reasons why you
Speaker:shouldn't do the decision that you
Speaker:know you're already going to do.
Speaker:If you feel it and you
Speaker:know that that's what's passionate
Speaker:and where you want to go, do
Speaker:it. If you hate it in the end,
Speaker:you can always make a new decision.
Speaker:There'll be new opportunities.
Speaker:Maybe you won't have the exact same
Speaker:options you had, but you'll have a
Speaker:new set and it just keeps opening
Speaker:different branches of decisions.
Speaker:Yep, no, exactly.
Speaker:I think it's very tied to this idea
Speaker:of just taking things step by step a
Speaker:little bit, which is not
Speaker:overthinking, not having a grand
Speaker:master plan.
Speaker:But you know, what is the next best
Speaker:move that I can make?
Speaker:Sometimes you have some data points,
Speaker:sometimes you don't, but you can
Speaker:usually sense like, what is the the
Speaker:best thing to do?
Speaker:It's also just experience that
Speaker:intuition is often,
Speaker:you have experienced many things in
Speaker:the past and it's pulling it
Speaker:together.
Speaker:And then again, I think as you get
Speaker:older, you get more,
Speaker:you trust your intuition more.
Speaker:So, this one I love, by the way.
Speaker:So, think small instead of think
Speaker:big. What is the most sensible,
Speaker:small, incremental step that can be
Speaker:done and not thinking
Speaker:through all these catastrophe
Speaker:scenarios thereby stopping yourself
Speaker:by taking that very first step?
Speaker:I agree.
Speaker:I think it's very tied in
Speaker:with the trusting your
Speaker:intuition.
Speaker:And this is the side where you
Speaker:talk yourself out of things that you
Speaker:know are right. And also, it's
Speaker:very helpful when leading a team and
Speaker:everybody's a bit overwhelmed and
Speaker:trying to plan out the next two
Speaker:years or five years or whatever.
Speaker:But really, often in
Speaker:the companies we work for, you
Speaker:just need to do the next thing.
Speaker:You just need do the next sprint.
Speaker:You need to just save this customer.
Speaker:I think some of it is you still
Speaker:need a North Star and you need to
Speaker:know where you're going and you have
Speaker:some principles on how
Speaker:you execute or make decisions
Speaker:and then
Speaker:need to just deal with the problem
Speaker:in front of you.
Speaker:This actually happens a lot
Speaker:in one of the teams at peak,
Speaker:the catastrophizing.
Speaker:And then suddenly this problem
Speaker:is two months
Speaker:to solve and all of these issues
Speaker:and need all of these people.
Speaker:And then it's just like, can we just
Speaker:diagnose it?
Speaker:And we're like, oh, we didn't push
Speaker:it into production.
Speaker:It's done.
Speaker:And it's a five minute process.
Speaker:Know what you're dealing with and
Speaker:then deal with that rather
Speaker:than all of the possibilities you
Speaker:could be dealing with.
Speaker:All right, last one, make believe.
Speaker:We didn't really talk about this one
Speaker:so much, but I find it interesting.
Speaker:So make believe, reclaim creativity,
Speaker:make things that don't exist yet.
Speaker:A lot of ops leaders think of
Speaker:themselves as optimizers and not
Speaker:creators.
Speaker:Yeah, I think it's great.
Speaker:I mean, whether you're in
Speaker:the ops world or
Speaker:not, or what way you're looking at
Speaker:it. Like when I had that time off,
Speaker:did my pottery class, you can see
Speaker:above, you know.
Speaker:Oh, so I didn't even know-
Speaker:that those are all your pots no
Speaker:some are my pots some are not my
Speaker:pots and there's some other pots
Speaker:and it'll be look too good.
Speaker:Yeah, the good ones are not mine.
Speaker:The really plain ones are mine.
Speaker:And I think it's the problem is
Speaker:school decides that some people are
Speaker:creative and some people aren't
Speaker:creative, but humans are just
Speaker:creative. And it depends on what
Speaker:you're talking about.
Speaker:The fact that we're working in
Speaker:startups and scale-ups and
Speaker:we're taking something that doesn't
Speaker:exist and creating a business
Speaker:is fundamentally creative.
Speaker:You're literally creating a
Speaker:businesses. You don't have to have
Speaker:pretty stars on it and be able
Speaker:and have beautiful handwriting to be
Speaker:creative.
Speaker:It's just. The way that you look at
Speaker:it. We can't help but be creative
Speaker:as humans.
Speaker:Sitting with a blank spreadsheet
Speaker:and then creating an entire business
Speaker:model, that is creating.
Speaker:You have a good point because you're
Speaker:taking abstract thoughts and
Speaker:concepts and applying them and
Speaker:molding it into a pottery dish,
Speaker:in this case being a spreadsheet.
Speaker:Yeah. And a good spreadsheet is
Speaker:truly a work of art and
Speaker:stunningly beautiful, just
Speaker:in a different way.
Speaker:So I think people are creative every
Speaker:single day and artists
Speaker:have just co-opt what creative
Speaker:means.
Speaker:So on that note, why don't we move
Speaker:over to our conversation with
Speaker:Jillian Raleigh.
Speaker:So the Book 10 permissions, can you
Speaker:give us a bit of a sense of the
Speaker:thesis of the book?
Speaker:Yeah, the thesis, the subtitle
Speaker:is Rethinking the Rules of Adulting
Speaker:for the 20th Century.
Speaker:I describe it as a playbook
Speaker:for navigating adult life in
Speaker:the current chaos and part of
Speaker:what I just referenced was helping
Speaker:people navigate profound change.
Speaker:I think we are all navigating
Speaker:profound change that has been
Speaker:coming, you know, over a decade.
Speaker:The social norms,
Speaker:the way we operate has and shifting.
Speaker:Pretty dramatically in the book
Speaker:i describe it as the great
Speaker:unraveling of sort of flattening
Speaker:of higher keys and loosening
Speaker:of social norms a
Speaker:lot of the boundaries that told us
Speaker:how to behave and how to show up and
Speaker:become much looser and of
Speaker:course now we're in this.
Speaker:Inflection point where changes about
Speaker:to accelerate or is in the process
Speaker:of selling accelerating
Speaker:tremendously.
Speaker:And the thesis is,
Speaker:if we're going to thrive in this, we
Speaker:need to give ourselves permission to
Speaker:operate very, very differently than
Speaker:perhaps we've been told or
Speaker:taught to. So those 10 permissions
Speaker:are 10 different ways to
Speaker:think about how you're supposed to
Speaker:navigate your adult life, different
Speaker:than sort of the default story that
Speaker:most of us grow up with or
Speaker:carry along with us.
Speaker:And really, in the end, it's about
Speaker:being more adaptive and responsive
Speaker:to change and prepared
Speaker:to grow and evolve throughout the
Speaker:course of your life.
Speaker:When I think about your 10
Speaker:permissions and I think about ages,
Speaker:I think there's different permissions
Speaker:that are more or less important
Speaker:depending on the age category that
Speaker:we're talking about.
Speaker:So if we think about the
Speaker:mid to late career professional that
Speaker:is doing really well,
Speaker:escalating the promotional ranks,
Speaker:they've got a family, they got kids,
Speaker:they've have the house, in that age
Speaker:bracket of the 10 permissions,
Speaker:which ones do you think are the most
Speaker:relevant?
Speaker:I always come back to the first one,
Speaker:which is be willful, which is
Speaker:a very primary question
Speaker:around what do you want?
Speaker:What is your desire to create?
Speaker:What is our desire for that next
Speaker:chapter in your life or that next
Speaker:thing that you want to create,
Speaker:because I think a lot of times
Speaker:by the time we've gotten to that
Speaker:phase in our lives and that phase
Speaker:and our career, we've in many cases
Speaker:detached ourselves from our
Speaker:own.
Speaker:Desires our own sort of drivers to
Speaker:create something or contribute
Speaker:something. We've been very sort of
Speaker:duty bound if you will and made all
Speaker:the right choices I
Speaker:encounter and I work with a lot of
Speaker:people who get to a point who say, I
Speaker:actually want to do something
Speaker:different. What is that?
Speaker:You know, how do I sort of tap a
Speaker:little bit into my
Speaker:own desire to maybe parlay
Speaker:whatever it is that I've learned,
Speaker:whatever the sort of platform I've
Speaker:created to maybe pursue something
Speaker:that feels like a little bit
Speaker:more of a reflection of my own
Speaker:gifts, my own experience,
Speaker:you know, to I won't say finally.
Speaker:But in a more meaningful way
Speaker:translate a career's worth of
Speaker:experience and talent and
Speaker:assets into something that feels
Speaker:like a greater reflection
Speaker:of me.
Speaker:And in some cases at that point in
Speaker:your life, you feel like you've got
Speaker:a little bit more leeway to do that.
Speaker:So that's one that I would always
Speaker:turn people back to because I think
Speaker:if you try and create
Speaker:change in your live without
Speaker:connecting to your own desires,
Speaker:you can often...
Speaker:Either find yourself sort of
Speaker:hesitating or adrift or confused.
Speaker:So to me, that's always the anchor
Speaker:for any sort of change
Speaker:or, you know, pivoting
Speaker:you want to make in your life.
Speaker:That's interesting. I was at an
Speaker:event a couple of weeks ago where
Speaker:it was C levels
Speaker:who have had more than one C level
Speaker:job.
Speaker:So we were talking about
Speaker:how we moved between
Speaker:roles.
Speaker:And then somebody was asking
Speaker:in the questions afterwards, come
Speaker:more specifically, I'm a CMO and
Speaker:no matter what I do, everybody
Speaker:just keeps making me be a CMO.
Speaker:And I want to get out of that.
Speaker:And we were taking about how to
Speaker:rebrand yourself and came up
Speaker:with idea of a Venn
Speaker:diagram with three circles.
Speaker:One being your passion,
Speaker:one being your experience
Speaker:slash talent, and the third
Speaker:being your network and being
Speaker:able to rebrand yourself by
Speaker:finding that intersection of those
Speaker:three.
Speaker:And I think so often people think
Speaker:about their network and their
Speaker:experience, but if you want to move
Speaker:somewhere else, you have to find
Speaker:your passion.
Speaker:But you have to figure out what your
Speaker:passion actually is,
Speaker:not just what you think your passion
Speaker:should be.
Speaker:Totally.
Speaker:And you know, also kind of
Speaker:maybe lowercase P rather than
Speaker:uppercase P because I think when we
Speaker:start to talk about passion, a lot
Speaker:of people think that it needs to be
Speaker:some grand vision or
Speaker:grand contribution.
Speaker:And, you know I really think when
Speaker:you give yourself permission to
Speaker:drill down into that in terms of
Speaker:what is it that I want to be a
Speaker:part of? What do I want create?
Speaker:What problem do I wanna help solve?
Speaker:Or What kind of services
Speaker:or products do
Speaker:I want to help make available to
Speaker:people that you sort of free up a
Speaker:little bit of your own imagination
Speaker:around what that might look like?
Speaker:And I think that's such a great
Speaker:example that you've just raised of
Speaker:people getting a little bit sort of
Speaker:fixed into an identity of
Speaker:I am CMO.
Speaker:And one of the ideas that I talk
Speaker:about in the book is an I
Speaker:can versus I am mentality.
Speaker:So detaching
Speaker:your identity from your role,
Speaker:which I think is going to
Speaker:happen more and more and more for
Speaker:young professionals moving into the
Speaker:world today. But I think for us,
Speaker:who've been at it a while, even
Speaker:allowing ourselves to look at,
Speaker:as you've just described, sort of
Speaker:our, some of our assets and
Speaker:capabilities and networks through
Speaker:that lens of, this is what I
Speaker:can do. And how do I bring that
Speaker:to a variety of different
Speaker:situations, depending upon
Speaker:how the is evolving depending upon
Speaker:where I am.
Speaker:In my own life and career.
Speaker:So I love talking about it.
Speaker:Identity.
Speaker:Which one of the ten should
Speaker:leans towards that identity
Speaker:question?
Speaker:Let me go.
Speaker:To the second one which is go
Speaker:astray.
Speaker:Because I think for
Speaker:a lot of us, you know,
Speaker:we were raised to believe that
Speaker:straight lines were everything.
Speaker:That standing in line and sitting up
Speaker:straight was how we proved ourselves
Speaker:to be good people and we get in our
Speaker:heads that success looks
Speaker:like following a straight line.
Speaker:And our identity gets shaped and
Speaker:fixed very early by the idea
Speaker:of, you know, conforming to an
Speaker:idea either that we have of
Speaker:ourselves or that the world has of
Speaker:us. And then we sort of stay
Speaker:in that for the remainder of our
Speaker:lives. Because anything other than
Speaker:that feels rebellious or as
Speaker:you get older, it feels selfish.
Speaker:So I think giving yourself room.
Speaker:To accept the fact that
Speaker:you can and will be
Speaker:more than one thing over the
Speaker:course of your life.
Speaker:And obviously the premise of the
Speaker:book is that increasingly we
Speaker:have to. We have to allow
Speaker:ourselves that more flexible sense
Speaker:of identity if we're going to
Speaker:keep evolving and changing at pace.
Speaker:So I think a lot of the books is
Speaker:around sort of unraveling
Speaker:our tight grip on who We
Speaker:think we are.
Speaker:And allowing ourselves to continue
Speaker:to explore who we can be
Speaker:and who we need to be, given the
Speaker:changes that are happening around
Speaker:us.
Speaker:One of the ways that I have
Speaker:been thinking about identity, and
Speaker:I'm almost more on the,
Speaker:does your work need to be part of
Speaker:your identity? Or can you have your
Speaker:work be separate to it?
Speaker:So the game that I play
Speaker:with myself is, if I
Speaker:can only have three labels to
Speaker:stick on myself to be my identity,
Speaker:what are those three that are
Speaker:permanent?
Speaker:And so for an example, for me,
Speaker:being a mother is part of my
Speaker:identity.
Speaker:Even if the horrible thing of
Speaker:my children not still being alive.
Speaker:I would still be a mother.
Speaker:Whereas being a wife is not
Speaker:part of my identity.
Speaker:If my husband and I divorced, I
Speaker:would not be forever the
Speaker:former wife of X.
Speaker:And so if you can only have
Speaker:three, does
Speaker:work play into being one of those
Speaker:three? And that's part of how I test
Speaker:my own identity.
Speaker:Interesting.
Speaker:And you know, so I have two teenage
Speaker:boys, 17 and 14.
Speaker:Me too.
Speaker:Oh, exactly the same.
Speaker:No. Oh my gosh.
Speaker:Well, and what's so interesting is
Speaker:coincidence.
Speaker:And when you ask that question, the
Speaker:first thing that came to mind was,
Speaker:okay, fine, mother.
Speaker:Of course, first one, mother,
Speaker:is the foundational identity that
Speaker:is and will always be.
Speaker:Well so fine, this is interesting.
Speaker:I observe in them that
Speaker:I don't think.
Speaker:They will necessarily have
Speaker:as tight of a
Speaker:knitting together of work and
Speaker:identity as I was brought up
Speaker:to.
Speaker:I think some of, you know, we are
Speaker:Gen X, we, I think, or
Speaker:sort of I am Gen X.
Speaker:I'm on the border.
Speaker:Sorry.
Speaker:Suddenly I was like, oh, okay.
Speaker:No, I am.
Speaker:I will wave the Gen X flag and
Speaker:say, you know.
Speaker:It was probably maybe the first
Speaker:generation where we were so
Speaker:encouraged to it.
Speaker:Our identity and our work together
Speaker:as one.
Speaker:And what I see in them is a
Speaker:willingness to look
Speaker:for things or be open to ways
Speaker:in which they will create security
Speaker:for themselves and create a
Speaker:livelihood that might not be the sum
Speaker:total of them, right?
Speaker:And maybe that's the side hustles
Speaker:and the, you know, over a decade of
Speaker:people opening themselves up to
Speaker:those types of things I think
Speaker:is creating a
Speaker:slightly more pragmatic
Speaker:if you will, mindset amongst
Speaker:coming the next generation.
Speaker:But I don't know, do you observe
Speaker:that in your own children or mine in
Speaker:a specific case?
Speaker:I'm just petrified about my own
Speaker:children entering the workforce.
Speaker:Yes, I understand that.
Speaker:And I actually did a talk with
Speaker:parents the other night about just
Speaker:this, that we,
Speaker:the current parents of the world,
Speaker:need help supporting our kids to
Speaker:move into this world.
Speaker:Because I think it's very hard for
Speaker:us as parents right now.
Speaker:You know, as I said, I don't have
Speaker:any prescriptions to offer them.
Speaker:Like my parents could say, if you go
Speaker:to a good school, you'll be fine.
Speaker:You know you'll go and get a job.
Speaker:There was a, and again, this is part
Speaker:of what I talk about in the book, is
Speaker:that there these if-then equations
Speaker:that made sense to us.
Speaker:Or what I say is requirements and
Speaker:guarantees. So if you've fulfilled
Speaker:the requirements, you were largely
Speaker:guaranteed a desirable
Speaker:outcome. And that is not the case
Speaker:anymore.
Speaker:It is a much looser playing field.
Speaker:And so how we support our
Speaker:kids to have a sort of mindset
Speaker:instead of capabilities to
Speaker:enable them to thrive in that
Speaker:world, it's very, very different.
Speaker:And I don't think we should
Speaker:underestimate that it won't look
Speaker:like the one we walked out into.
Speaker:Won't.
Speaker:I have one who
Speaker:by virtue of just,
Speaker:I don't know, my husband calls him a
Speaker:surface dweller and my husband says
Speaker:he's also a surface dwella.
Speaker:They're not deep thinkers.
Speaker:They just like to look for things
Speaker:that are fun.
Speaker:Don't have massive plans.
Speaker:I suspect he'll
Speaker:be The other one is
Speaker:much more like me.
Speaker:He's already trying to decide which
Speaker:GCSEs he takes to maximize
Speaker:his chances of getting a job in
Speaker:the AI world and not about
Speaker:what he's interested in or cares
Speaker:about. And I'm trying to get one to
Speaker:loosen up and one to just get a
Speaker:little bit more structure.
Speaker:You know, I have these spectrums.
Speaker:They're both sitting on the other
Speaker:side of it.
Speaker:And so I'm worried about them for
Speaker:different reasons.
Speaker:I've decided we worry
Speaker:about whatever it is.
Speaker:We find something to worry about
Speaker:regardless of where they are.
Speaker:Mean, this is also true.
Speaker:The one that was more tightly wound,
Speaker:like he would have thrived much
Speaker:better in a world where
Speaker:all of the white collar jobs,
Speaker:entry level white collar job still
Speaker:existed.
Speaker:I read an article the other day that
Speaker:50% of entry level white collar,
Speaker:jobs are going to disappear in the
Speaker:next five years.
Speaker:And so of course, I'm
Speaker:freaking out as a parent.
Speaker:Of course, we all are.
Speaker:I mean, you can't be alive and not
Speaker:be freaking out about the fact that
Speaker:the entire mental
Speaker:model that has shaped the
Speaker:trajectory of coming into
Speaker:adulthood is falling apart.
Speaker:And so the way I describe it
Speaker:is the shift from following the way
Speaker:to finding your way.
Speaker:When we were growing up, there were
Speaker:a certain number of paths, you
Speaker:picked the one and you followed it,
Speaker:which is what you're describing,
Speaker:sort of your second son is still
Speaker:trying to do to some extent, to say,
Speaker:if I follow this, if i make one big
Speaker:bet and I think it's the right one,
Speaker:then I can stay in that and it'll
Speaker:sort of take me along.
Speaker:Whereas the other one is to say
Speaker:you're going to come out and
Speaker:there'll be a range
Speaker:of possibilities you might have to
Speaker:make your own.
Speaker:You won't know which ones are good,
Speaker:you know, You're going to need to be
Speaker:far more.
Speaker:Exploratory and that's going to come
Speaker:much more naturally, as you said,
Speaker:for your surface dweller.
Speaker:But yeah, I think of it sometimes
Speaker:as the difference between being in a
Speaker:hiking with a paved path,
Speaker:then you follow it and then the
Speaker:premium is on your ability to
Speaker:keep going and follow the signs and
Speaker:versus being put down in the middle
Speaker:of the woods and saying, okay,
Speaker:you got to find your way.
Speaker:And we all know that when we do find
Speaker:our way through those situations,
Speaker:it's absolutely exhilarating, right?
Speaker:You feel like a million bucks.
Speaker:So that's why I think
Speaker:there's potential for
Speaker:something hugely satisfying to
Speaker:come out of this, but it is
Speaker:gonna require a very different way
Speaker:of finding your way forward.
Speaker:So this topic of uncertainty
Speaker:and kind of a future that we can't,
Speaker:it's not knowable in front of us,
Speaker:that seems very unpredictable,
Speaker:I suppose. A lot of your permissions
Speaker:revolve around this idea, I think.
Speaker:Can you maybe just give us a bit of
Speaker:a shape on that?
Speaker:Yeah, thanks for picking up on
Speaker:that. Yeah, the original
Speaker:premise for me was what I called the
Speaker:explorer's way.
Speaker:And it was this need that this
Speaker:uncertain world is requiring of
Speaker:us to be more exploratory.
Speaker:And the ones that you've just
Speaker:mentioned, those permissions that
Speaker:you just mentioned are sort of
Speaker:operationalizing that, if you will.
Speaker:So for me, they're about
Speaker:how you expect to
Speaker:be able to move through
Speaker:your adult life.
Speaker:And I think.
Speaker:As much as we know that we are
Speaker:living in a time of uncertainty,
Speaker:there's still this kind of
Speaker:expectation that success
Speaker:will look like
Speaker:ease and accumulation
Speaker:and a sort of
Speaker:one thing leads to another, that
Speaker:that's what you buy for yourself if
Speaker:you are reasonably
Speaker:successful, then you will
Speaker:expect to have a line of sight
Speaker:that's long enough for you to make
Speaker:plans, etc.
Speaker:Etc.
Speaker:And I think that the lived
Speaker:experience today is not
Speaker:that, and I think it's very easy for
Speaker:people to start to then feel like
Speaker:there's something wrong with them,
Speaker:they're doing something wrong,
Speaker:everybody else has a plan, everybody
Speaker:is sort of moving smoothly through
Speaker:their lives.
Speaker:And as you say, I think particularly
Speaker:for young people, you know,
Speaker:the anxiety sets and the
Speaker:self-recrimination sets in when
Speaker:it's kind of like...
Speaker:But this doesn't feel the way that I
Speaker:sort of expected it to feel, right?
Speaker:I expected it to be a little bit
Speaker:more, you know, get a job,
Speaker:get an apartment, get a car
Speaker:vibe, even though that's
Speaker:not what's happening for a lot of
Speaker:people.
Speaker:So, so yes, I think it's
Speaker:normalizing.
Speaker:And leaning into
Speaker:a way of moving forward
Speaker:that might not have
Speaker:all of the predictability and
Speaker:all of this certainty, and therefore
Speaker:your own lived experience of it is
Speaker:going to be quite different.
Speaker:You might feel at times like,
Speaker:I am working in three-month
Speaker:increments or I'm working in
Speaker:year-long increments.
Speaker:I'm creating something and
Speaker:I'm worried that
Speaker:I don't have a plan for next year
Speaker:sort Thank you for listening.
Speaker:And so that permission is to say,
Speaker:it's okay. You know, there will be
Speaker:times in your life where you will
Speaker:have to kind of pull your locus
Speaker:of control in, find your
Speaker:way through some deep uncertainty.
Speaker:And that doesn't mean you're a
Speaker:failure. It doesn't that, you know,
Speaker:your life is falling apart.
Speaker:It means you're in a time of
Speaker:creativity and change.
Speaker:So.
Speaker:It's sort of accepting the fact
Speaker:that some of what worked for us, you
Speaker:know, late 20th century sort
Speaker:of big plans and big, you
Speaker:now, five-year visions might
Speaker:not be feasible anymore and that's
Speaker:okay.
Speaker:That doesn't mean that everything's
Speaker:falling apart. It means you've got
Speaker:to be extra attentive
Speaker:to learning and adapting and
Speaker:sort of being on your toes and, as
Speaker:you said, keeping that optionality
Speaker:alive for yourself.
Speaker:Lots of problems to solve all the
Speaker:time. And we have some people
Speaker:who just catastrophize and
Speaker:will turn the task that's needed
Speaker:today into
Speaker:three months of required
Speaker:resource and things that could go
Speaker:wrong and an inability to
Speaker:start because it could roll
Speaker:into something massive.
Speaker:And I feel like with that team, I'm
Speaker:constantly saying, okay, well,
Speaker:that's a possibility, but
Speaker:we haven't diagnosed any
Speaker:of it. So what's the thing that we
Speaker:do today.
Speaker:To find out whether or not that's
Speaker:going to be an issue.
Speaker:And stop the catastrophizing
Speaker:so that people's brains
Speaker:are wasting so much energy on
Speaker:so many what ifs of the future
Speaker:versus what's the reality of today.
Speaker:So that's Think Small.
Speaker:I'm here.
Speaker:This is what I can control.
Speaker:And the story, I cut it from the
Speaker:book, but a lot of that for me came
Speaker:out of traveling through really
Speaker:wildly weird and wonderful places
Speaker:where I
Speaker:could have had a panic attack at any
Speaker:time if I what if too much.
Speaker:So I had to just keep.
Speaker:Staying in the moment, staying very
Speaker:present, keeping my locus of control
Speaker:tight, looking around, figuring out
Speaker:what I could control and what I
Speaker:couldn't. But yeah, totally,
Speaker:it's your brain will,
Speaker:you know, take you on the worst
Speaker:kind of ride if you let it in this
Speaker:in this world.
Speaker:And then you waste your energy
Speaker:on that versus
Speaker:solving today's problem.
Speaker:I think it's so interesting how
Speaker:catastrophizing has become
Speaker:kind of our default.
Speaker:I mean it's now completely
Speaker:normal and totally accepted
Speaker:and almost if you're not
Speaker:catastrophizing then you're not
Speaker:awake.
Speaker:So I think that's
Speaker:our collective response to some
Speaker:extent to the uncertainty.
Speaker:It's like to
Speaker:throw all of our anxiety and
Speaker:doomsday into the
Speaker:ether and feel somehow better that
Speaker:we're not alone.
Speaker:But, you know, if you try and enter
Speaker:into those conversations with either
Speaker:a more optimistic or a more
Speaker:pragmatic voice, it's often like,
Speaker:oh, you just don't get
Speaker:it. Whereas I think,
Speaker:as you've described, actually what
Speaker:you're trying to do is find a way
Speaker:forward that will hopefully have a
Speaker:better outcome than sitting around
Speaker:worrying about, you know,
Speaker:potential terrible.
Speaker:Outcomes.
Speaker:Okay, I was going to get back to
Speaker:I think is actually, we
Speaker:haven't gotten very far. I think
Speaker:we've gone from like one to and
Speaker:whichever one is things small
Speaker:for five.
Speaker:But I'm going to go back to one,
Speaker:which is
Speaker:how do you figure out?
Speaker:What you want.
Speaker:No, I mean, for me, it's the most
Speaker:transgressive thing of all, right?
Speaker:And for me it came out of
Speaker:a career in change and
Speaker:realizing that you were
Speaker:trying to push people to sort of
Speaker:evolve through change when they
Speaker:hadn't even connected
Speaker:to their own desire to move
Speaker:through that change to get to
Speaker:sort a better place.
Speaker:And I realized how much people's
Speaker:sense of what they want.
Speaker:Is what I would describe as outside
Speaker:in rather than inside out.
Speaker:So you let the world tell you what
Speaker:you want.
Speaker:You outsource your wants to either
Speaker:your family or your community
Speaker:or your culture or your corporate,
Speaker:whatever, you know, and then you let
Speaker:them tell you what you wanted.
Speaker:You say, yes, let's go.
Speaker:And that worked, you know, in
Speaker:a very hierarchical traditional
Speaker:world, you scored points and
Speaker:earned benefits from doing what
Speaker:other people wanted.
Speaker:The simple reality is that now.
Speaker:First of all, you don't get as many
Speaker:points or rewards for just being
Speaker:compliant and saying yes.
Speaker:They're not going to protect you
Speaker:just because you do that.
Speaker:Your loyalty will not get you what
Speaker:it used to.
Speaker:And second of all you've got so many
Speaker:more options and so many more
Speaker:choices so you can get overwhelmed
Speaker:by them.
Speaker:I always say I see it as
Speaker:like a muscle and for
Speaker:most of us it's a muscle that
Speaker:doesn't get exercised very much and
Speaker:possibly hasn't and exercise since
Speaker:childhood.
Speaker:So start small with.
Speaker:Trying to tap into what do
Speaker:I want to eat, what do i want to
Speaker:do on Saturday, what do I wanna do
Speaker:with my friends,
Speaker:like literally just connect to
Speaker:the parts of you that feel something
Speaker:to the voice inside of you,
Speaker:that says hey I want spaghetti
Speaker:versus pizza or whatever it
Speaker:is.
Speaker:I think a lot of us try and figure
Speaker:out what we want to do with our
Speaker:careers and we can't figure out what
Speaker:we wanna eat on Saturday night
Speaker:and you can't make big choices
Speaker:if you're totally unused to making
Speaker:small ones with any degree of
Speaker:intentions.
Speaker:So there's a workbook that comes
Speaker:with the book and a lot of it is
Speaker:really focused on super small,
Speaker:activating your agency and your
Speaker:intentionality through some of the
Speaker:smallest low consequence
Speaker:choices.
Speaker:Because if you leapfrog to the high
Speaker:consequence ones and then go, oh
Speaker:gosh, I can't decide if I want to
Speaker:quit my job or not, it's like, well,
Speaker:yeah, that's pretty serious.
Speaker:So why don't we work on just
Speaker:getting in touch with you
Speaker:as a person who has desires
Speaker:and is allowed to act
Speaker:on them, and maybe some of them
Speaker:not, but at least if you're
Speaker:connected and more aligned in that
Speaker:way, it allows for a better
Speaker:conversation with yourself when
Speaker:you get to some of the higher
Speaker:consequence, more serious choices in
Speaker:your life. I think that's fantastic.
Speaker:Another one that really resonates
Speaker:with me is I feel like a lot of my
Speaker:life has been spent trying to
Speaker:figure out myself and what I'm
Speaker:feeling.
Speaker:One of the things I've noticed is
Speaker:the stories that I tell
Speaker:because for a
Speaker:while – and this comes back
Speaker:to my original question of is
Speaker:this about your personal life or is
Speaker:it about your career?
Speaker:There was definitely a part of me
Speaker:that was like business
Speaker:was not who I was and
Speaker:business is what I did and
Speaker:was not part of what I enjoyed.
Speaker:I might have been good at it, but I
Speaker:didn't enjoy it.
Speaker:And yet I've had multiple career
Speaker:breaks and then keep going back to
Speaker:business. And then at a certain
Speaker:point I realized, oh no,
Speaker:I actually enjoy it, even though
Speaker:I felt like I shouldn't.
Speaker:It's something that I enjoy.
Speaker:So it's also like, what are those
Speaker:things that you enjoy that you tell
Speaker:yourself you shouldn't enjoy or
Speaker:can't enjoy, or it's not an
Speaker:acceptable thing to enjoy and
Speaker:embrace those as well?
Speaker:Oh, I think just the idea
Speaker:of desire, pleasure,
Speaker:enjoyment, I think some
Speaker:of what I've observed is we've
Speaker:moved into discipline and
Speaker:grit and rigor as
Speaker:our collective response
Speaker:to the increasing uncertainty, you
Speaker:know, if I cold plunge,
Speaker:if I get up at 5am, if my journal if
Speaker:I If I
Speaker:have this unbelievable structure
Speaker:overlaying my life, I will be
Speaker:able to somehow immunize
Speaker:myself against all the crazy out
Speaker:there. And it's like, great, if that
Speaker:works for you, fantastic.
Speaker:However, there's a whole scope of
Speaker:there's something to tap into around
Speaker:enjoyment, around pleasure,
Speaker:around what lights me up,
Speaker:what makes me feel good.
Speaker:Because from that space
Speaker:you are much more generative
Speaker:you are a much better contributor
Speaker:when you are in that
Speaker:space and i think we underestimated
Speaker:the extent to which you know
Speaker:contentment happiness.
Speaker:Is a wonderful place to operate
Speaker:from because you are then
Speaker:able to take advantage of
Speaker:what's around you and contribute
Speaker:better and i mean having
Speaker:the conversations around what do i
Speaker:enjoy.
Speaker:It sounds so basic and yet
Speaker:the more you slip into your dutiful
Speaker:adult role the more those
Speaker:conversations feel indulgent
Speaker:they live on the ever near
Speaker:edges of your to
Speaker:do list.
Speaker:And it's like, actually,
Speaker:that's pretty important because I
Speaker:can't serve anybody from
Speaker:a place of deficit and
Speaker:duty and always like
Speaker:my outgoings always
Speaker:exceeding my incoming sort of
Speaker:energy and stimulation.
Speaker:So.
Speaker:Again, I think some
Speaker:of what's happening right now might
Speaker:allow for us to connect to
Speaker:those things and engage
Speaker:with them more than our
Speaker:parents could or maybe even
Speaker:I could from an early point
Speaker:in my career.
Speaker:So that's where I see some potential
Speaker:right now.
Speaker:So maybe we can circle to the last
Speaker:one in your lesson. I'm very curious
Speaker:about this one, the make belief
Speaker:number 10.
Speaker:So I have a couple different
Speaker:thoughts in my head. One is, you
Speaker:know, obviously when you're a child,
Speaker:it's all about make belief and
Speaker:slowly but surely it's beaten out of
Speaker:you as you get older for the most
Speaker:part.
Speaker:This is one other thought, which is
Speaker:I just did the all hands meeting.
Speaker:I hosted, I was the moderator last
Speaker:Thursday.
Speaker:And whenever I go into moderate all
Speaker:hands sessions, this is like an
Speaker:improv set and I'm just like.
Speaker:You know it's like silly version of
Speaker:brand and having fun with people
Speaker:doing a bit of a back and forth and
Speaker:all that jazz but never can make
Speaker:believe bring someone this one.
Speaker:Yeah, well, I mean, you've picked up
Speaker:already in the conversation that so
Speaker:much of this is about
Speaker:reconnecting to some
Speaker:sort of innate ways of being
Speaker:and doing that in many ways we lose
Speaker:or we have lost as we
Speaker:seek to become adults.
Speaker:And this one, perhaps the
Speaker:most, as you've just said,
Speaker:I think a couple things.
Speaker:So I describe it as make things you
Speaker:believe in, and perhaps more
Speaker:importantly, believe that you can
Speaker:make things. Which, as you
Speaker:say, we lose that belief
Speaker:really quick.
Speaker:I think we probably all have some
Speaker:sort of experience that scarred us
Speaker:in an art class early on when
Speaker:we decided that we
Speaker:could not make stuff, that we were
Speaker:not artistic or creative.
Speaker:And from that point on, we
Speaker:don't engage with that piece of
Speaker:ourselves.
Speaker:And I think, we've seen that
Speaker:as a capability for the few.
Speaker:The rest of us just go out and
Speaker:collect a paycheck and execute on
Speaker:somebody else's ideas.
Speaker:And obviously what's happening right
Speaker:now is the scope opening up
Speaker:for, and a requirement opening
Speaker:up, for us to tap more into
Speaker:that capability to
Speaker:make things big and small.
Speaker:And I think podcasts are a brilliant
Speaker:example of that, a space
Speaker:that's opened up over the last, you
Speaker:know, and obviously boomed over the
Speaker:last five years in particular
Speaker:where people were like, hey, maybe
Speaker:we can make something that is of
Speaker:value to the world.
Speaker:So I think it's happening.
Speaker:I think it needs to accelerate that
Speaker:our understanding of our
Speaker:kind of generative capacity to
Speaker:make things that are responses
Speaker:to current problems
Speaker:that are sort of reinterpretations
Speaker:of old things.
Speaker:One of the things I talk about in
Speaker:the book is think DJ,
Speaker:not DaVinci.
Speaker:So, you know, a DJ is remixing
Speaker:stuff that already exists to make
Speaker:something new to meet a specific
Speaker:need for a specific group of people
Speaker:of an eye. He or she is not some
Speaker:grand master who's making something
Speaker:that will exist forever, but
Speaker:the need to mix and remix
Speaker:and reset for
Speaker:a specific need.
Speaker:You know, pop-ups, places
Speaker:where people are finding ways to
Speaker:create things that are
Speaker:responsive and adaptive.
Speaker:And your reference to sort of
Speaker:improv, the need to behave
Speaker:more improvisationally to accept
Speaker:the fact again that when you're
Speaker:improvising, I think we used to kind
Speaker:of feel like, oh gosh, I don't have
Speaker:it all together because I'm
Speaker:improvising here.
Speaker:And it's like, no, that's just what
Speaker:you're going to have to do a lot of
Speaker:is to figure things out on the fly,
Speaker:to come up with a new solution to
Speaker:make something that just works for
Speaker:now, but might fall apart.
Speaker:You know, in the next day, that's
Speaker:okay.
Speaker:And that again is a mindset that
Speaker:I think we've got to allow ourselves
Speaker:to play around with and engage with
Speaker:in a way that I certainly did
Speaker:not.
Speaker:And again, for our listeners
Speaker:who are a little bit older, I think
Speaker:there's so much scope to
Speaker:get in touch with this.
Speaker:And, again, I would say start small
Speaker:and just play around with things
Speaker:that interest you.
Speaker:But Yeah, that's almost the
Speaker:culmination.
Speaker:You know, it bookends the, what do I
Speaker:want? And what's my contribution?
Speaker:These two things bookend everything
Speaker:in between.
Speaker:And I think we're moving
Speaker:into a period where that
Speaker:conversation with self,
Speaker:embedding that into yourself
Speaker:will become so important
Speaker:to us moving through the next five
Speaker:years, the next decade, not feeling
Speaker:like we're just responding and
Speaker:becoming irrelevant.
Speaker:But actually you know figuring out
Speaker:how to make our best contribution to
Speaker:a world that's changing very very
Speaker:quickly we
Speaker:unfortunately, are rapidly running
Speaker:out of time, but
Speaker:nobody gets away without answering
Speaker:our final question,
Speaker:which is, we've
Speaker:covered so much today, if
Speaker:our listeners can only remember one
Speaker:thing, or take one thing
Speaker:away, I should say, what is it?
Speaker:I think it's that you're allowed
Speaker:to have a life that looks very
Speaker:different perhaps than the story
Speaker:that you were sold or the story you
Speaker:told yourself and that this world
Speaker:is requiring us to sort of
Speaker:loosen our grip on the
Speaker:notion of what good looks like as
Speaker:an adult, okay?
Speaker:So, it's okay.
Speaker:Give yourself a break, allow
Speaker:yourself more room than maybe
Speaker:you thought you needed to
Speaker:discover what's possible of
Speaker:a moment, of a season
Speaker:in your life.
Speaker:Because the more that you listen to
Speaker:that voice that wants to explore
Speaker:something other than the status quo,
Speaker:the more you're oiling your own
Speaker:receptivity and adaptivity to
Speaker:a changing world.
Speaker:And I think that that, in the end,
Speaker:is what all of us need to really
Speaker:nurture in ourselves, is how do
Speaker:I evolve as the world does?
Speaker:I'm allowed.
Speaker:It's okay.
Speaker:It might not always be neat.
Speaker:It might feel very messy, and
Speaker:adult life isn't supposed to feel
Speaker:messy. But maybe
Speaker:in all that mess is a lot of
Speaker:the beauty.
Speaker:And a lot of the joy and a lot
Speaker:of the sense of discovery and
Speaker:possibility that I think most of us
Speaker:need in spades right now.
Speaker:So yeah, give yourself permission to
Speaker:go and discover what's
Speaker:possible and know that it's
Speaker:okay.
Speaker:Lovely. So I will give us permission
Speaker:to end this podcast today.
Speaker:So thank you Jill Riley for joining
Speaker:us on the operations room.
Speaker:If you like what you hear, please
Speaker:subscribe or leave us a comment and
Speaker:we will see you next week.
