66. COO Superpowers Revealed Part 1
In this episode we discuss: What is a COO's strengths and gaps? We are joined by Divinia Knowles, The COO Coach.
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We chat about the following:
- How do COOs build trust with key decision-makers while staying behind the scenes?
- What’s the secret to thriving in a role that demands constant adaptability?
- How can COOs master resource allocation when scaling feels chaotic?
- Why is being an external spokesperson a game-changer for COOs?
- How do COOs and CEOs create a partnership that drives success?
References
Biography
Divinia Knowles is an accomplished operator and coach with extensive experience supporting startup and scale-up COOs, CEOs, and leadership teams through growth, exit, and beyond. With a career spanning roles as COO, CFO, CEO, and Board Advisor, Divinia has worked with companies like Pact Coffee and Mind Candy, helping scale global brands and drive success.
As the founder of the London COO Roundtable, Divinia has built a thriving network for operational leaders. Since 2017, she’s coached over 150 executives, combining advanced coaching accreditation with expertise in organizational psychology, resilience, and team dynamics.
To learn more about Beth and Brandon or to find out about sponsorship opportunities click here.
Summary
04:49 Introduction to COO Strengths and Weaknesses
19:23 Exploring COO Strengths
20:33 Identifying Gaps in COO Skills
21:22 The Role of External Spokesperson
26:37 Resource Allocation Challenges for COOs
31:16 Understanding Financial Reports and Business Metrics
32:44 The Importance of Financial Forecasting
31:23 Exploring Business Models and Metrics
40:18 Future-Facing Opportunities in Business
46:04 Strengths-Based Management and Just-in-Time Learning
Transcript
Hello and welcome to another
Speaker:episode of the Operation through a
Speaker:podcast for Close.
Speaker:I am Brandon Metzger.
Speaker:Alongside my co-host, Bethany airs.
Speaker:How are you, Bethany?
Speaker:I'm just tired.
Speaker:It's Christmas time almost.
Speaker:And I find this time
Speaker:of year really hard because there's
Speaker:so much we have to do work wise.
Speaker:And all of the planning and all of
Speaker:the next year stuff and closing all
Speaker:of the deals and go, go,
Speaker:go and parties and silly season.
Speaker:But at the same time, the sun's
Speaker:going down at, what, 330?
Speaker:Sunrise this morning was eight.
Speaker:The world is cocooning
Speaker:and sleeping.
Speaker:It's dark all the time.
Speaker:And yet we're trying to force our
Speaker:bodies to be the
Speaker:most active.
Speaker:Last week was so busy because
Speaker:we had our board
Speaker:meeting for provisional budget
Speaker:approval, so we've had to be doing
Speaker:the budgets.
Speaker:We have end of year reviews
Speaker:and pay rises to talk about.
Speaker:And you're still
Speaker:working on closing deals.
Speaker:And then also on top of that,
Speaker:because I'm on other boards.
Speaker:I had one board meeting
Speaker:and one meeting at 645
Speaker:in the morning, the day after the
Speaker:Christmas party.
Speaker:I'm sure you were on point in terms
Speaker:of your feedback to that company.
Speaker:And that was talking about a
Speaker:fundraise. And so just like the only
Speaker:time they could fit in.
Speaker:And then we recorded
Speaker:this podcast after that.
Speaker:So I was just broken.
Speaker:So I spent the entire weekend doing
Speaker:nothing.
Speaker:I have both boys back home.
Speaker:They've taken over our lives.
Speaker:We don't have a single glass in the
Speaker:house. I don't know where they go.
Speaker:They were home less than 24 hours in
Speaker:every single glass in the house that
Speaker:disappeared.
Speaker:It's a skill.
Speaker:I'm not quite sure what kind of
Speaker:skill that is, per say, but that is
Speaker:a skill.
Speaker:It is a skill. And then also just
Speaker:having four people instead of two
Speaker:people in the house means the
Speaker:dishwasher is going all the time.
Speaker:I feel like I'm ever doing is
Speaker:unloading the dishwasher.
Speaker:So no, not feeling particularly
Speaker:relaxed or ready
Speaker:for this. And then I absolutely
Speaker:love my in-laws and I'm serious.
Speaker:I'm not somebody who doesn't like
Speaker:their in-laws and they're coming for
Speaker:Christmas.
Speaker:But right now, the idea of preparing
Speaker:Christmas is wildly overwhelming.
Speaker:And so I spent the weekend trying to
Speaker:find places to maybe go out to eat,
Speaker:but nobody's keen.
Speaker:Nothing looks great.
Speaker:And also, like set menus for 95
Speaker:pounds a head.
Speaker:That is standard these days.
Speaker:I think we want to set Christmas
Speaker:dinner. I mean, you're looking at at
Speaker:least 100 pounds per person.
Speaker:Which is crazy.
Speaker:And then like I was looking at them
Speaker:and they didn't even include the
Speaker:sides for that price.
Speaker:It's like, what do
Speaker:I do? You have to pay staff extra.
Speaker:But yeah, so because
Speaker:that's like 600 pounds for
Speaker:six of us to go out and although I
Speaker:really don't want to cook, that's
Speaker:maybe a bit toppy, although
Speaker:it's great to just have that break
Speaker:because every Christmas
Speaker:I do everything because
Speaker:gender And so
Speaker:over the years I've gotten more
Speaker:and more efficient.
Speaker:So I buy everything pre-made,
Speaker:so you just have to hit it.
Speaker:Except I still need to make the meat
Speaker:and it still takes a whole day
Speaker:because of timings.
Speaker:And I have this list
Speaker:and I have to think about it and
Speaker:our kitchen is separate to
Speaker:the rest of the house.
Speaker:And so everybody just sits in the
Speaker:other room having a great time.
Speaker:And I'm in the kitchen for the whole
Speaker:day.
Speaker:Bethany, where is my eggnog?
Speaker:What's happening?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:It's because I'm the only one who
Speaker:actually cares about Christmas.
Speaker:Like this year, I was saying to my
Speaker:husband that he's going to have to
Speaker:help because although I'm the only
Speaker:one that cares about Christmas,
Speaker:everybody else still benefits from
Speaker:Christmas. And I don't want to just
Speaker:be there all by myself and I'm
Speaker:exhausted and I can't quite imagine
Speaker:it right now.
Speaker:So, yeah, so Christmas
Speaker:time for relaxation.
Speaker:So on that note, why don't we flip
Speaker:on over to what is a wonderful topic
Speaker:today we have.
Speaker:What is a CEO's strengths and
Speaker:gaps?
Speaker:And we have an amazing guest for
Speaker:this, which is David Angels.
Speaker:She is the founder of the CEO
Speaker:Roundtable, which we are part
Speaker:as well, and the former CEO of
Speaker:Wayne County.
Speaker:And more broadly, David is really
Speaker:the CEO coach of note, I would say,
Speaker:in London as it stands right now.
Speaker:So before we get to the he wanted to
Speaker:talk about the strengths
Speaker:side of things.
Speaker:So I'll go through the strengths one
Speaker:by one and I'll just kind of quote
Speaker:them as the way that she described
Speaker:it and maybe just get your view on
Speaker:how do you learn that particular
Speaker:thing or get better at it.
Speaker:And the first one that she talked
Speaker:about was being highly adaptable
Speaker:and flexible and approach listening
Speaker:to the opinions of others and
Speaker:seeking to understand with empathy.
Speaker:So if you want to get better
Speaker:at being adaptable and flexible
Speaker:in your approach, what are some
Speaker:things that we could throw out there
Speaker:to folks to think about?
Speaker:Well, it's funny because part of
Speaker:Wind Avenue was going through the
Speaker:strengths and the weaknesses or the
Speaker:strengths and the gaps, I would say
Speaker:is that a lot of the strengths seem
Speaker:to be attributes, whereas the gaps
Speaker:are like gaps in knowledge.
Speaker:So I didn't think we were comparing
Speaker:apples and oranges.
Speaker:And so some of that
Speaker:is just an attribute to some
Speaker:extent you're born with the ability
Speaker:or not, but then you can get better
Speaker:at it. I was not a particularly
Speaker:patient person and I've definitely
Speaker:learned to listen more as I've
Speaker:gotten older, and that has been
Speaker:a combination of noticing.
Speaker:I was impatient and exploring why
Speaker:I'm not patient.
Speaker:And what does that mean about me and
Speaker:what are my insecurities
Speaker:that are feeding it. So that's part
Speaker:of like therapy and doing the work
Speaker:and introspection.
Speaker:And then the other part is just
Speaker:practice.
Speaker:So just listening
Speaker:and see what happens when you're not
Speaker:trying to jump in with your ideas
Speaker:and have faith that your
Speaker:idea will come up, you know, when
Speaker:there's time. But otherwise
Speaker:just hold on to what the other
Speaker:person is saying and the number
Speaker:of times where somebody has an idea
Speaker:and I'm like, Ooh, yes, that's a
Speaker:really good idea for all these
Speaker:different reasons. And in my head I
Speaker:just go and we'll wait.
Speaker:And they might talk longer than I
Speaker:want and they might be a bit rumbly,
Speaker:but the nine times out of ten get
Speaker:to all of the different reasons why
Speaker:it's a good idea and the
Speaker:interconnects that I also
Speaker:had. And it's just like, okay, look,
Speaker:I can have faith that other people
Speaker:can figure out these interconnects
Speaker:too, and that they might
Speaker:not realize why their idea is a good
Speaker:idea and they have to think it
Speaker:through out loud.
Speaker:But they get to all those points.
Speaker:And so it just becomes
Speaker:an ability to let go
Speaker:and trust other people more,
Speaker:because over time it's proven
Speaker:over and over again. So it's kind of
Speaker:like practice, see that it works,
Speaker:reinforces it, continue to practice.
Speaker:So the second one she'd spoken
Speaker:about was a high resilience
Speaker:threshold, working through barriers
Speaker:arising and committing
Speaker:wholeheartedly.
Speaker:So what do you make of this in terms
Speaker:of getting better at that?
Speaker:I just laughing at my preamble,
Speaker:which I think is all about I was.
Speaker:Really.
Speaker:Digging deep, being resilience,
Speaker:ignoring your own needs.
Speaker:Yeah, maybe not the healthiest way
Speaker:of doing that, but I think
Speaker:resilience really is one of those
Speaker:that you have a certain amount
Speaker:that you're born with and then you
Speaker:can reinforce it.
Speaker:Some people are just not as
Speaker:resilient as others and maybe
Speaker:sometimes not just resilience, but
Speaker:also like questioning ambition and
Speaker:what you want in life, because it's
Speaker:fine to choose different levels of
Speaker:grit and hard work.
Speaker:So I have been born
Speaker:and blessed and cursed
Speaker:with a massive period and work
Speaker:ethic. You know, I work hard,
Speaker:I do my a star.
Speaker:I am not lazy, but the
Speaker:resilience for me comes from
Speaker:not just working hard because
Speaker:they'll break yourself, but
Speaker:taking time to reflect after
Speaker:something shitty has happened and
Speaker:seeing that I survived it.
Speaker:So the next time something shitty
Speaker:happens, I know I'll be able to
Speaker:survive it again.
Speaker:I guess it's like I just really like
Speaker:empirical evidence.
Speaker:So I take the time to review my
Speaker:empirical evidence and
Speaker:I have empirical evidence that I'm
Speaker:resilient and therefore believe I
Speaker:can do it again.
Speaker:I've had this conversation many
Speaker:times in the past where at the end
Speaker:of the day, there's been some
Speaker:massive issue within the company.
Speaker:A single person or several people
Speaker:have freaked out about whatever is
Speaker:going on and, you
Speaker:know, sitting down with them to talk
Speaker:them through what has happened.
Speaker:And the fact of the matter is we
Speaker:live to fight another day.
Speaker:And regardless of what's happened,
Speaker:things are going to move on.
Speaker:So as long as we kind of anchor
Speaker:ourselves to what we're trying to
Speaker:accomplish for the
Speaker:purpose of why we're here and why
Speaker:we're at this company, why we're
Speaker:bothering to wake up the morning and
Speaker:we'll get past this.
Speaker:I think that kind of mentality and
Speaker:mindset, kind of sharing that with
Speaker:individuals I think usually tends to
Speaker:help.
Speaker:So you're actually building
Speaker:resilience within your team
Speaker:rather than talking about how to
Speaker:build resilience within yourself.
Speaker:I guess kind of both in a way,
Speaker:because I tell myself the same
Speaker:thing. I think as you get older and
Speaker:more mature, I think these
Speaker:machinations of company tend to
Speaker:impact you less and you care less
Speaker:about them in a sense.
Speaker:Like you care a lot about your
Speaker:career and your focus and delivering
Speaker:good results. But it's like.
Speaker:Holding everything quite lightly, I
Speaker:guess, in terms of how it actually
Speaker:impacts you. And I feel like only
Speaker:through experience and time I've
Speaker:gotten to a place where the minutiae
Speaker:of what happens in these companies
Speaker:does not impact me or affect me
Speaker:elicits, you know, crazy dramatic, I
Speaker:suppose.
Speaker:Take it for what it is.
Speaker:It's a software company.
Speaker:Nobody's going to die.
Speaker:We're going to move on.
Speaker:I can have a great career regardless
Speaker:of whether this company succeeds or
Speaker:not. But I'm here.
Speaker:And because I'm here, I want to make
Speaker:this work and I want to do my best
Speaker:job to make that happen, I guess.
Speaker:So I think it's a bit of like that
Speaker:thinking that I'm trying to like
Speaker:plant in myself and also plant in
Speaker:others where we're here
Speaker:eight hours a day working our asses
Speaker:off. Let's make an impact.
Speaker:Perspective is always very good.
Speaker:I think just because of the year
Speaker:that I've had. As everybody knows,
Speaker:my resilience wasn't actually
Speaker:necessarily work related.
Speaker:Like, there's just been a lot of
Speaker:deaths this year to get over and
Speaker:a lot of health issues where
Speaker:there's still a level of resilience
Speaker:and understanding that life can
Speaker:throw a lot at you or a lot at
Speaker:me and I can survive it.
Speaker:All right. Number three, gap
Speaker:filling.
Speaker:So overseeing and managing areas
Speaker:where there may be functional
Speaker:leaders missing and filling those
Speaker:gaps for whatever time period.
Speaker:How do you get good at that?
Speaker:I don't know how you get good at it.
Speaker:I don't know if you should get good
Speaker:at it, but it just seems to be,
Speaker:again, something that happens a lot.
Speaker:I like that has been
Speaker:the number one
Speaker:story of my career
Speaker:at New Voice Media.
Speaker:I was SVP of Strategy, but I
Speaker:basically did all of
Speaker:the bits of other people's jobs that
Speaker:didn't know how to do and was like
Speaker:the unsung hero of all of
Speaker:those things. Or as our
Speaker:very scary French
Speaker:chair called it, I was in the shit
Speaker:list.
Speaker:Right. Okay, that's that's.
Speaker:That's great.
Speaker:Yeah. It was like, so inspiring.
Speaker:And then even now at
Speaker:peak, we have
Speaker:our head of account management going
Speaker:on maternity leave.
Speaker:And guess who's now the acting Matt
Speaker:leave cover.
Speaker:Nice.
Speaker:Right on top of everything else.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:What was the most random function
Speaker:you've ever led for a while.
Speaker:The marketing one does bring to mind
Speaker:because marketing is probably
Speaker:where I'm least
Speaker:knowledgeable but have
Speaker:the biggest opinion.
Speaker:So it's a bad.
Speaker:Nightmare for the marketing team.
Speaker:Exactly.
Speaker:But in fairness to myself, I try to
Speaker:hold all that stuff in check and do
Speaker:my best job to be a proper CEO,
Speaker:which is listen to what's happening.
Speaker:Listen to the experts that are on
Speaker:the ground list, experts that I know
Speaker:outside the company that are good
Speaker:marketers and try
Speaker:to ask really smart and useful
Speaker:questions to make sure that we're
Speaker:thinking about the right things
Speaker:where whether I'm the expert or not
Speaker:in that case doesn't matter.
Speaker:But as long as I'm kind of holding
Speaker:people to account, asking good
Speaker:questions, driving the program
Speaker:forward, let the experts kind of do
Speaker:their thing, then generally
Speaker:speaking, you're in a decent
Speaker:position. So what's your most random
Speaker:backfill?
Speaker:For me, it was
Speaker:s.p.a..
Speaker:So financial planning and analysis,
Speaker:because I didn't know it was
Speaker:a thing.
Speaker:I didn't know it was a discipline.
Speaker:I just was self-taught into
Speaker:figuring out how to build models.
Speaker:And for like three and a half years
Speaker:at peak, I was the FP and a
Speaker:function.
Speaker:So basically our CFO
Speaker:says looking at the future
Speaker:is what strategy does.
Speaker:You're looking at the future.
Speaker:In order to look at it, you need to
Speaker:model it.
Speaker:Go And I did
Speaker:because I was young
Speaker:and inexperienced in experience and
Speaker:didn't realize.
Speaker:And so I did it for
Speaker:three and a half years.
Speaker:And then we got bigger and then we
Speaker:raised money from T V,
Speaker:and then we had like more
Speaker:sophisticated people come in
Speaker:and a new CFO who hired
Speaker:somebody whose entire job was FPGA.
Speaker:And I was like, this is
Speaker:a discipline.
Speaker:This is a job. Like this is one
Speaker:person's job. This is a just one
Speaker:fifth of my job.
Speaker:It was such an eye opener for me,
Speaker:and it was like we raised
Speaker:120 million off the back of my
Speaker:mom.
Speaker:Really?
Speaker:Wow. Okay.
Speaker:That's impressive.
Speaker:No idea what I was doing.
Speaker:That was enough logic.
Speaker:I was fine. Yeah.
Speaker:Wow. That's amazing.
Speaker:Especially like fundraising.
Speaker:That amount of money based off a
Speaker:model with a nonprofessional at the
Speaker:helm of it.
Speaker:So for Bessemer and TCV both.
Speaker:Actually, this is a question for
Speaker:you. When do you need proper
Speaker:modeling, do you think?
Speaker:In 2024?
Speaker:I mean way, way before we
Speaker:had it,
Speaker:yeah. I think with your series
Speaker:A, given the size of Series A's now
Speaker:a days, you definitely need
Speaker:a finance professional.
Speaker:You need it for the model in the
Speaker:future and you need it
Speaker:for not
Speaker:ridiculously spending your money on
Speaker:stupid things.
Speaker:Like it's just a good bit of
Speaker:experience.
Speaker:I think part of the reason why we
Speaker:could get away with me doing
Speaker:whatever I was doing was
Speaker:because we had a very experienced
Speaker:team except for me.
Speaker:I was the least experienced
Speaker:by far.
Speaker:And so although I was the
Speaker:glue that held things.
Speaker:Together and did everybody's shit
Speaker:jobs.
Speaker:They also gave me
Speaker:context and experience that I
Speaker:didn't know about.
Speaker:And you also need experience
Speaker:and you need to find it somehow.
Speaker:You need a combination of people who
Speaker:don't have experience with people
Speaker:who do.
Speaker:And what I see a lot is
Speaker:companies that get to their series
Speaker:A where just everybody
Speaker:is new to the world.
Speaker:And now once you have
Speaker:a sizable amount of money in your
Speaker:bank account, you start to need to
Speaker:have some people who are not new to
Speaker:the world.
Speaker:Typically, when you come in to a
Speaker:series A, the team,
Speaker:a lot of teams are pure
Speaker:newbies to the world, as you've
Speaker:described it.
Speaker:How many kind of like more senior
Speaker:executives do you think you need on
Speaker:the pathway from A to B?
Speaker:So we had to mix that team a little
Speaker:bit in terms of seniority.
Speaker:So I definitely go for some sort of
Speaker:finance
Speaker:person. I go for I hate
Speaker:the term, but I don't know how else
Speaker:to say it. A finance person with an
Speaker:operations fight.
Speaker:So you can get some amount
Speaker:of like, what's this leadership
Speaker:team do? Who should be in the
Speaker:leadership team?
Speaker:The importance of meeting regularly,
Speaker:the importance of having clear
Speaker:reporting, plus a
Speaker:good model plus fiscal
Speaker:responsibility.
Speaker:And then I would
Speaker:put somebody in the technical area
Speaker:as well, because quite often
Speaker:technical co-founders are great at
Speaker:hacking stuff together, but don't
Speaker:actually know how to scale an
Speaker:organization as you tend
Speaker:to need somebody who knows how to
Speaker:scale on the
Speaker:product side, and those would be
Speaker:the minimal viable hires
Speaker:I would make.
Speaker:So why don't we park it here and
Speaker:get on to our conversation with
Speaker:Tiffany and Ole's.
Speaker:So what are the strengths of CEOs
Speaker:en masse? What does that look like
Speaker:for us?
Speaker:So the ones that indexed most
Speaker:highly and you won't
Speaker:be surprised by some of these.
Speaker:Definitely. If I wasn't building
Speaker:strong relationships with key
Speaker:decision makers in the business.
Speaker:And that means anywhere, right,
Speaker:say board here
Speaker:below and rest of team.
Speaker:And I feel like that's the real
Speaker:strength of CEOs generally like
Speaker:they're generally very humble
Speaker:servant leadership able to
Speaker:really connect and take people on
Speaker:the journey. Then you've got owning
Speaker:and managing their functional areas
Speaker:that lend well to their strengths.
Speaker:They're very resilient, as you would
Speaker:imagine, from all the things that
Speaker:they then have to do and go through.
Speaker:And when they work through barriers,
Speaker:they tend to be quite
Speaker:consensus driven in their approach
Speaker:with others and then will commit
Speaker:wholeheartedly towards decided
Speaker:the highly adaptable, flexible.
Speaker:They love corralling other people's
Speaker:opinions, understanding what other
Speaker:people think situations and
Speaker:they embrace perspectives even when
Speaker:they're not their own.
Speaker:So they can be that person who
Speaker:really helps to homogenize
Speaker:and curate opinions
Speaker:and understand what different people
Speaker:are thinking.
Speaker:Gap filling.
Speaker:No surprise there.
Speaker:So leading other functional areas
Speaker:when there's a leader missing, we
Speaker:get drafted into that lot.
Speaker:And then changing processes if
Speaker:they're not effective, but doing
Speaker:it in a very systematic, pragmatic
Speaker:way.
Speaker:And I often hear this spoken about
Speaker:as treating it like product.
Speaker:So internal stakeholders, your
Speaker:customer.
Speaker:So thinking about that way,
Speaker:those are the biggest drags. I mean,
Speaker:there are lots, right? And this is a
Speaker:certain segment of a population,
Speaker:but it is the segment of the
Speaker:population. It was very mixed in
Speaker:terms of gender, so 5050 gender.
Speaker:And actually, in terms of the CEOs
Speaker:that we got responses back from,
Speaker:these are not incredibly early stage
Speaker:CEOs. These are actually people who
Speaker:are quite experienced in their
Speaker:roles. So this is why I thought was
Speaker:super interesting because some of
Speaker:the gaps then are interesting given
Speaker:that's the context.
Speaker:They're not newbie CEOs
Speaker:who are early stage of their career.
Speaker:These are folks who've been doing it
Speaker:for a little while.
Speaker:Given that we're talking about
Speaker:fairly senior or senior CEOs,
Speaker:I don't know. How dare we have gaps
Speaker:because we're perfectionists where
Speaker:they start to kids.
Speaker:What are those gaps that you find in
Speaker:the CEOs?
Speaker:The first one and again, there are
Speaker:some of these where you're like,
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Generally speaking, this would seem
Speaker:to be a gap. But being an external
Speaker:spokesperson for the business
Speaker:and whether that's attending
Speaker:networking events, speaking
Speaker:at conferences.
Speaker:And I actually love this one because
Speaker:this one is incredibly nuanced, I
Speaker:think, around
Speaker:the fact that actually some CEOs are
Speaker:incredibly comfortable being an
Speaker:internal spokesperson.
Speaker:That's why external is interesting.
Speaker:And even those CEOs who are
Speaker:incredibly comfortable being an
Speaker:internal spokesperson sometimes
Speaker:struggle speaking at board level,
Speaker:which again is the tipping point
Speaker:possibly between internal and
Speaker:external. Maybe I'm wondering
Speaker:if it's struggling to speak at the
Speaker:board or this dynamic around
Speaker:disagreeing commit and then showing
Speaker:a united front in front of the
Speaker:board. This is something I
Speaker:definitely found difficult myself
Speaker:the last time around because I
Speaker:wouldn't necessarily always agree
Speaker:with the decisions that had been
Speaker:made that we were then representing
Speaker:to the board.
Speaker:And then if I was asked specifically
Speaker:my opinion, I
Speaker:would find it difficult because
Speaker:I didn't want to show not a united
Speaker:front. And it's like, where
Speaker:is your loyalty?
Speaker:Is your loyalty with the board or is
Speaker:your loyalty with the exact
Speaker:team slash the CEO
Speaker:as I don't know if it's a discomfort
Speaker:so much as a hard
Speaker:place to be.
Speaker:And having to decide when
Speaker:you state your ground and
Speaker:when you disagree and commit.
Speaker:I also found it quite difficult
Speaker:sometimes in board situations, this
Speaker:when I was operating to know
Speaker:what my role was.
Speaker:And it sounds a bit weird, but it's
Speaker:like if the CEO
Speaker:is updating on all of these
Speaker:different things and he's this sort
Speaker:of being the face of the company,
Speaker:it almost has to be pre-contract
Speaker:it's that you have a role at the
Speaker:board, otherwise you end up.
Speaker:Sort of.
Speaker:Sitting there.
Speaker:I think CEOs generally
Speaker:perceive themselves as very internal
Speaker:facing people, so they see
Speaker:themselves as that, you know, they
Speaker:do the all hands, the strategic golf
Speaker:sites and they may be wonderful
Speaker:speakers, but they don't see
Speaker:themselves as the external person
Speaker:for the company. They're their
Speaker:audience. Sales are not the seat of
Speaker:the company. They don't feel like
Speaker:it's part of their remit, I think.
Speaker:So part of it, I think is partially
Speaker:a mindset shift to understand
Speaker:that the external side is equally
Speaker:as important.
Speaker:And I think that customer
Speaker:centricity, really understanding
Speaker:some of the issues that they're
Speaker:having, you know, in much part of
Speaker:senior level, because you can bring
Speaker:that external relationship, that
Speaker:external kind of understanding back
Speaker:into the company and have much more
Speaker:of that real connection to the
Speaker:marketplace. And I think that's not
Speaker:a sales role and it doesn't have to
Speaker:be a CEO role. It can be a CEO role.
Speaker:By the way, there's another gap in
Speaker:there, which is interesting, which
Speaker:we should come on to talk about.
Speaker:But I was having a fascinating
Speaker:conversation with Andrew Richardson
Speaker:recently.
Speaker:We were talking about the same
Speaker:thing.
Speaker:Lots of CEOs, the external
Speaker:spokesperson thing can also go to
Speaker:customer, right?
Speaker:CEOs can have limited interaction
Speaker:with customers and therefore you
Speaker:then have less of a connection to a
Speaker:customer's problems are and so on.
Speaker:And you don't see yourself as a
Speaker:salesperson as
Speaker:such. And I think that could be
Speaker:quite problematic actually as zero
Speaker:because you get a whole different
Speaker:view, as you say, on the business by
Speaker:talking to customers and seeing it
Speaker:from their viewpoint.
Speaker:But I think there's two elements to
Speaker:external. There's the external
Speaker:spokesperson versus having customer
Speaker:relationships and that spokesperson
Speaker:I can again see why the CEO might
Speaker:not always feel comfortable doing
Speaker:that, particularly if you have a
Speaker:co-founder, CEO
Speaker:or founder CEO, where it's their
Speaker:vision, their baby.
Speaker:They're the ones who are thinking
Speaker:five years ahead and evangelizing
Speaker:all the time.
Speaker:You're never going to sound as good.
Speaker:You're never going to be that
Speaker:founder who just, like loves it and
Speaker:thinks about it 24 hours a day.
Speaker:And so it's around figuring out what
Speaker:kind of spokesperson you can be,
Speaker:where you are authentic
Speaker:and understand the business, but are
Speaker:not going to necessarily be
Speaker:emulating our corporate copy of a
Speaker:founder CEO who's just in
Speaker:a different level.
Speaker:Absolutely. And finding the things
Speaker:that you're passionate about talking
Speaker:about for you
Speaker:then will make the whole external
Speaker:spokesperson piece will be easier.
Speaker:But I agree with you, it's very
Speaker:difficult. It's a bit role based.
Speaker:Again, what's your role in doing
Speaker:it? Why? What's the outcome?
Speaker:Was the desired outcome of you doing
Speaker:it? Because whilst it can be to
Speaker:raise your own brand, this has to be
Speaker:a business oriented, reasonable say
Speaker:to do it.
Speaker:And when I was at mine, Candy, mine
Speaker:was a lot talent, a lot of talent
Speaker:related as an encouraging
Speaker:folks to understand that it was a
Speaker:great place to be and all of that
Speaker:kind of good stuff bringing people
Speaker:to us, which I felt like was a great
Speaker:role actually as an external
Speaker:spokesperson because I loved being
Speaker:so much that I could really
Speaker:evangelize that.
Speaker:And it was a slightly different
Speaker:perspective to the see from the CEO
Speaker:who's talking, as you say, about why
Speaker:we do what we're doing, how we're
Speaker:going to go, the vision and the
Speaker:mission and all of that kind of good
Speaker:stuff. But it's a great one.
Speaker:And Brandon, you mentioned another
Speaker:gap.
Speaker:So Brandon, is all the gaps.
Speaker:Among the gaps and all of the gaps
Speaker:right now.
Speaker:But yeah, so that one was a great
Speaker:one. Would you like to move to
Speaker:another gap?
Speaker:Well, I want to know about the gaps
Speaker:that Brandon's mentioned.
Speaker:What are these ones that Rand is
Speaker:getting?
Speaker:So this one around sort of
Speaker:being a negotiator,
Speaker:which is also related to the
Speaker:customer side of things, which
Speaker:came out of the gap.
Speaker:And again, understandably, because
Speaker:whilst you have a group of CEOs,
Speaker:you may have a spike in customer
Speaker:operations or go to market
Speaker:sales, etc., you also
Speaker:have a lead the day, right?
Speaker:They have a very different scheme, I
Speaker:would think, because so many CEOs
Speaker:come with a CFO background.
Speaker:CFOs are good at negotiating as
Speaker:well. And really on the money, maybe
Speaker:it's the CEOs that come from a pure
Speaker:ops background that struggle with it
Speaker:because those of us from sales are
Speaker:used to negotiating and those of us
Speaker:from CFO worlds
Speaker:are as well, or at least should be
Speaker:like a good CFO really needs to know
Speaker:how to negotiate.
Speaker:True.
Speaker:I think it's yeah, as you say, it's
Speaker:pure ops because if you've come from
Speaker:a sales background, you have it
Speaker:already.
Speaker:CFO is an interesting one because I
Speaker:found that not all CFOs have that.
Speaker:Maybe that would be a gap for other
Speaker:CFOs. I mean, because how else are
Speaker:you going to get really good?
Speaker:Well, first of all, to stand
Speaker:your ground and make sure that
Speaker:the deals that you're doing and that
Speaker:your sales team are doing are good
Speaker:deals, Sydney, to understand and
Speaker:actually be in deals or have a team
Speaker:that are in deals.
Speaker:And then also when you're buying
Speaker:major contracts, having
Speaker:the CFO in as that final
Speaker:bad cop to lower the price is just
Speaker:essential.
Speaker:I used to have a great guy that
Speaker:worked for me. I called Alex, who
Speaker:was a very, very commercial finance
Speaker:person, and he would go and
Speaker:renegotiate things like payment
Speaker:terms and stuff, which from a
Speaker:financial perspective is incredibly
Speaker:important.
Speaker:It's slightly tangential, but like
Speaker:you tend to have some who are
Speaker:more commercial and some who are
Speaker:more technical and they tend
Speaker:to be camps, right?
Speaker:It's another little piece of opinion
Speaker:of mine is for scale
Speaker:up start ups and scale ups.
Speaker:You need commercial finance
Speaker:people and not technical finance
Speaker:people. Yeah, because your actual
Speaker:technical is going to be quite low.
Speaker:Probably it's going to be quite
Speaker:straightforward versus the
Speaker:commercial side of things, which
Speaker:might be a lot more helpful and
Speaker:there's just no value add in.
Speaker:If you get somebody who's just
Speaker:straight technical because you need
Speaker:someone who can negotiate with fund
Speaker:fundraising, understand
Speaker:the best ways of structuring
Speaker:those types of deals, somebody who
Speaker:can work with your customers
Speaker:and structure deals well there and
Speaker:your suppliers.
Speaker:So anyhow, if anybody happens to be
Speaker:listening who's hiring a CFO or a
Speaker:finance person, those are my $0.02.
Speaker:And I would also say for the CEO,
Speaker:I feel like I'm constantly
Speaker:negotiating in different forms.
Speaker:And usually it's more complex
Speaker:situations where the commission plan
Speaker:for the sales reps is broken for
Speaker:some reason, and the sales rep, the
Speaker:leader of the sales team has been
Speaker:caught out. They need to talk to
Speaker:somebody about it in terms of what
Speaker:to do because person is really
Speaker:upset for whatever reason that VP
Speaker:of Sales needs to have a
Speaker:conversation around what we need to
Speaker:negotiate with with that person
Speaker:or, you know, other nonstandard
Speaker:situations where a leadership team
Speaker:has also either contractual issues
Speaker:or something that's happening in
Speaker:terms of. They're winding down
Speaker:and the terms associated to that
Speaker:wind down and how to get the best
Speaker:out of that person. There's some
Speaker:level of negotiation that needs to
Speaker:occur. So I feel like for the CEO,
Speaker:there's often this but nonstandard
Speaker:negotiations, spectrum of things and
Speaker:pop up all over the place where, you
Speaker:know, it may not be strictly like a
Speaker:supplier negotiation, but there's
Speaker:definitely a lot of nonstandard
Speaker:negotiations that need to happen
Speaker:where we are involved to come up
Speaker:with the best outcome for an
Speaker:individual or for a team.
Speaker:It's interesting because I think
Speaker:CEOs have the skills for
Speaker:negotiation, but when you put the
Speaker:label negotiation on it,
Speaker:we get a bit freaked out.
Speaker:So, that's salesy, that's external.
Speaker:That is an area,
Speaker:an agreement I'm not used to.
Speaker:Whereas if you think about the
Speaker:strengths that you mentioned, one of
Speaker:the first strengths was doing great
Speaker:stakeholder management, which is
Speaker:just negotiation.
Speaker:Well, and even company comms, right?
Speaker:A lot of company comms is actually
Speaker:objection handling really.
Speaker:And so there's lots of kind of
Speaker:pieces of it that really fit in the
Speaker:internal piece.
Speaker:But maybe it's the external
Speaker:exhibit like this is sort of not
Speaker:known today is a bit more
Speaker:uncomfortable.
Speaker:So yes, that's an interesting one.
Speaker:The other gap that Brandon mentioned
Speaker:was resource allocation.
Speaker:And this came up quite strongly and
Speaker:I have having been
Speaker:spoken to the CEOs about this one,
Speaker:I now realize why,
Speaker:because on the face of it, you're
Speaker:like, they should be really good at
Speaker:that. And again, out of my
Speaker:experience, married Theirs was,
Speaker:well, in these companies
Speaker:you're constantly having to rejig
Speaker:resource allocation.
Speaker:It doesn't just stay the same.
Speaker:If you're scaling, you're like,
Speaker:okay, where do we need people?
Speaker:Or if you've got different parts of
Speaker:the business that are running some
Speaker:bits of working, some bits won't be
Speaker:working. So you might need to
Speaker:rightsize certain bits of it at
Speaker:different times or change the
Speaker:structure in different places.
Speaker:And I think they, they get the sense
Speaker:that they therefore are
Speaker:always sort of
Speaker:second guessing themselves,
Speaker:Michaela, to do it potentially a
Speaker:little bit, but quarterly
Speaker:rightsizing.
Speaker:As for how I used to think about it,
Speaker:where every quarter I then kind of
Speaker:look at the organ and think right
Speaker:we good at the moment or we
Speaker:got some weird bits happening
Speaker:in different places.
Speaker:We've got the right structures, we
Speaker:got the right people. If we got the
Speaker:right levels of this stuff
Speaker:because of this thing.
Speaker:But I think it's it is a challenge
Speaker:and it's knowing when
Speaker:you've got the right balance as
Speaker:well, especially if you think about
Speaker:where you're investing versus
Speaker:where you're not.
Speaker:If you're trying to be profitable,
Speaker:that means, you know.
Speaker:So I think it's quite tricky
Speaker:area and RMB ambiguity
Speaker:and they might be good at it but not
Speaker:think they're good at it.
Speaker:That's the other thing because it's
Speaker:really hard and it's changing
Speaker:like it's a problem that never ends.
Speaker:And so if you have to change, does
Speaker:it mean that you got it wrong?
Speaker:It just means that the company has
Speaker:changed.
Speaker:Yeah. And it kind of feels like
Speaker:there's two aspects to it.
Speaker:Like what is the purely financial
Speaker:side of the financial modeling?
Speaker:Because you're trying to model out
Speaker:the future of the company over the
Speaker:next, you know, three, six, nine, 12
Speaker:months and what that looks like and
Speaker:you're constantly iterating it based
Speaker:on actual revenue and actual budget
Speaker:and these sorts of things, you're
Speaker:thinking through how best to
Speaker:allocate funds for the future in
Speaker:terms of hires or what have you.
Speaker:So there's purely that side of it
Speaker:that there's an entirely different
Speaker:dynamic around the actual people in
Speaker:the company. The skills that you
Speaker:have, the capabilities that you have
Speaker:or don't have.
Speaker:And it's much more really
Speaker:understanding, I guess, your
Speaker:existing employee base in terms of
Speaker:what they're good at and what
Speaker:they're capable of doing in the
Speaker:future type of thing.
Speaker:But being able to combine those two
Speaker:things together and do it on this
Speaker:iterative basis with the functional
Speaker:leaders I think we're at, that's
Speaker:where it all comes together, where
Speaker:the CEO hopefully is connecting all
Speaker:those dots to try to think that
Speaker:through holistically for the
Speaker:company, working with whatever
Speaker:functional leader that they're
Speaker:working with.
Speaker:And then I think the newest element
Speaker:to throw into that, which might also
Speaker:make it is I'm struggling with
Speaker:the moment is where does
Speaker:Jenny fit in and therefore
Speaker:where your allocation of resource
Speaker:of finding new skills,
Speaker:investing in technology and
Speaker:what can and cannot actually be
Speaker:done more efficiently.
Speaker:With Jenny, it's like a new resource
Speaker:to try and allocate.
Speaker:When I even found that I'm a
Speaker:fractional CEO, a very small
Speaker:business now, we still have
Speaker:the same challenges, just on a much
Speaker:smaller scale.
Speaker:It's like we'll change things and do
Speaker:things and then like about a month
Speaker:later we'll be like.
Speaker:So the right thing to do
Speaker:or have we really so
Speaker:set ourselves up for success here?
Speaker:And then think about it again, so
Speaker:much so that as soon as I heard this
Speaker:from the CEOs in the survey, I was
Speaker:like, Yeah, this sounds just because
Speaker:it just keeps moving.
Speaker:You can't ever say you've done it.
Speaker:And then would you recommend on some
Speaker:cadence or basis thinking through
Speaker:it quite specifically?
Speaker:Because generally speaking, as a
Speaker:CEO, I think about it when I need
Speaker:to think about it as opposed to
Speaker:setting some kind of time slot or
Speaker:something like that. But what do you
Speaker:make of that?
Speaker:I would if the company is scaling,
Speaker:definitely. And that's what the
Speaker:situation I found myself in, which
Speaker:was like, I feel like I am the only
Speaker:person potentially who
Speaker:is thinking about this in the
Speaker:holistic round in the same way,
Speaker:and the CEOs of making deals
Speaker:and doing other things and
Speaker:developing the company in different
Speaker:ways. So it's like, right, this has
Speaker:to be me. So I'm going to think
Speaker:about I'm going to just deliberately
Speaker:time box it, just keep thinking
Speaker:about it and in different.
Speaker:Pieces.
Speaker:So, I mean, it worked for me, put it
Speaker:that way. That worked well in the
Speaker:situation I was in.
Speaker:And then quarterly works because
Speaker:that's when you're budgeting or
Speaker:you're trying to decide like, what's
Speaker:the hiring plan for the next
Speaker:quarter? So it's an opportunity to
Speaker:pause and make sure that the plan
Speaker:from the last quarter is still
Speaker:necessary.
Speaker:Even in scaling territory,
Speaker:it feels like you hold
Speaker:your nerve for a bit just to make
Speaker:sure everybody gets it and then you
Speaker:so it kind of is a step to growth
Speaker:path versus can't just keep adding
Speaker:more and more and more and more
Speaker:people and expecting that's going to
Speaker:be efficiency.
Speaker:That also works well in a quarterly
Speaker:cadence.
Speaker:Yeah, it's an interesting one, that
Speaker:one.
Speaker:So this is something that we're
Speaker:trying to do something about at the
Speaker:moment, but it's got two bits to it.
Speaker:Understanding financial reports
Speaker:was one side of it and
Speaker:the other side of it.
Speaker:And this nuance, this whole talk
Speaker:about, okay, of course it's always
Speaker:nuanced,
Speaker:understanding business metrics
Speaker:in businesses that you don't work in
Speaker:which different business models,
Speaker:but the metrics that drive success
Speaker:in different business models,
Speaker:what we talk about first metrics
Speaker:or financials.
Speaker:Let's go financials.
Speaker:Okay. So the financials on the
Speaker:financials one is interesting,
Speaker:right? So I believe
Speaker:that, again, from talking to the
Speaker:folks at the events and
Speaker:afterwards, it's not that they don't
Speaker:understand financials personally,
Speaker:as in and I had this with a
Speaker:wonderful lady who's a client of
Speaker:mine who in her own health was like,
Speaker:This isn't a strength of mine,
Speaker:actually. Then we went through the
Speaker:financials, and the observations she
Speaker:made about it were brilliant.
Speaker:She's very astute.
Speaker:It's all good. However,
Speaker:if you then went one layer
Speaker:deeper than that and you asked
Speaker:her or them off the back
Speaker:of a balance sheet or something like
Speaker:that, more complex
Speaker:questions around financial
Speaker:management.
Speaker:No, it wouldn't happen.
Speaker:And so I think that's where this
Speaker:comes in. It's like to a point
Speaker:where you could make strategic
Speaker:business based decisions off
Speaker:the back of reading
Speaker:your balance sheet, for example.
Speaker:That's where this I think
Speaker:falls down versus
Speaker:being able to read financial data.
Speaker:And if you think in certain board
Speaker:scenarios where you've
Speaker:more often than not you've got more
Speaker:financially literate folks,
Speaker:possibly less operationally literate
Speaker:at times, then they're likely
Speaker:to have really in-depth knowledge
Speaker:of company valuation and how
Speaker:you do it, what you're looking for
Speaker:or funding mechanisms or
Speaker:any of these things that Sarah
Speaker:might not they may not
Speaker:have as much of a view or opinion
Speaker:on that dependent on their knowledge
Speaker:of what they've been exposed to.
Speaker:I feel like in terms of the
Speaker:financial instruments, it's always
Speaker:there's always a new one.
Speaker:There's always like currently
Speaker:every person I speak to, I guess
Speaker:because of the avoidance of down
Speaker:rounds, are talking about Collins
Speaker:convertible, low notes.
Speaker:And like five yeadours ago nobody
Speaker:talked about it.
Speaker:And now, like every single time I go
Speaker:to a meeting, I talk to somebody
Speaker:and they're like, we're negotiating
Speaker:a clean and we all just know about
Speaker:it. Now, every time I go to drinks,
Speaker:somebody is negotiating one and
Speaker:wants to know about something.
Speaker:But anyhow, I do agree that you
Speaker:learn it as you need it.
Speaker:And we're not
Speaker:CFOs unless we were CFOs to
Speaker:begin with, which is
Speaker:for me, it's not necessarily a skill
Speaker:that I would go out and desperately
Speaker:try and improve
Speaker:versus just having a good CFO
Speaker:or the ability to Google things.
Speaker:I think it's important to know what
Speaker:your strengths are and where you
Speaker:need to know enough and to
Speaker:learn what you need to learn when
Speaker:you need to know it rather than like
Speaker:go out and just decide to learn
Speaker:it for no particular reason.
Speaker:When you're in a business, that's
Speaker:not going to be funding.
Speaker:The challenge here, I think, is that
Speaker:there's a level of proficiency
Speaker:that's expected.
Speaker:And so how do you get to that
Speaker:without then massively overdoing
Speaker:it? I even think if I look back,
Speaker:I was a hybrid CIO, CFO, because
Speaker:I qualified in my evenings from just
Speaker:accounting because I'd sit
Speaker:in the board meeting sometimes and
Speaker:I'd be like, I know what they're
Speaker:talking about.
Speaker:This financial I'm not Rachel is
Speaker:like.
Speaker:I would say this, though, I kind of
Speaker:feel like to Bethany's point, I
Speaker:feel like I've picked up finance
Speaker:where I've needed to understand it
Speaker:to help run the business, basically.
Speaker:So when I think about my financial
Speaker:acumen, a lot of it revolves around
Speaker:financial forecast, not the PNL
Speaker:staff essentially to help run
Speaker:the business effectively and think
Speaker:through how we spend money and
Speaker:what the revenue creation is going
Speaker:to look like and making sure that
Speaker:burn rates appropriate.
Speaker:Anything that revolves around that,
Speaker:I'm very interested in.
Speaker:And to your point, Bethany, you
Speaker:know, I've Googled, you know, ad
Speaker:nauseum, I've looked at all sorts of
Speaker:videos and stuff like that.
Speaker:At this point in my life and career,
Speaker:I can very much pair with a finance
Speaker:person where collectively we can
Speaker:work together, where there are
Speaker:excellent. I'm modeling, I'm
Speaker:excellent at understanding the
Speaker:business and what happens in the
Speaker:business itself.
Speaker:And you combine those two things
Speaker:together, then boom, you have like
Speaker:models that actually really
Speaker:represent the business and you can
Speaker:actually do some proper modeling to,
Speaker:to figure out how to spend money and
Speaker:how to ensure that you're ramping in
Speaker:a sensible way.
Speaker:And then if you talk about the board
Speaker:level conversations, because those
Speaker:are different to the modeling that
Speaker:Brandon's talked about.
Speaker:It's much more fundraising strategy,
Speaker:corporate debt, different
Speaker:types of instruments
Speaker:where like balance sheet
Speaker:matters and what are you
Speaker:capitalizing and what are you,
Speaker:you know, kind of like the art
Speaker:of working on your financials
Speaker:so that you look the right way
Speaker:depending on what your valuation
Speaker:like. Is it a revenue based
Speaker:valuation? Is an EBITDA based
Speaker:valuation?
Speaker:How do you make it look the way it
Speaker:needs to or is close to it as you
Speaker:can? But I guess for me,
Speaker:all of that's come through experience,
Speaker:through conversations.
Speaker:And I'm very much been a just
Speaker:in time learner and also
Speaker:on the boards that I sit on, my
Speaker:pitch is I'm the operator.
Speaker:I am like the friend of the CEO.
Speaker:I can understand what's
Speaker:hard in your life, but I've
Speaker:also done so many fundraising
Speaker:rounds. I've hung out with
Speaker:investors. I understand how they
Speaker:think. I know what an investment
Speaker:banker does, that I can help
Speaker:translate on both sides.
Speaker:And what I am not going
Speaker:to do is help with your fundraising
Speaker:strategy and conversely,
Speaker:your board members, who have always
Speaker:been investment bankers, should not
Speaker:be trying to help you
Speaker:on your go to market strategy.
Speaker:You're like, if we understand our
Speaker:lanes and we can talk a little bit
Speaker:across them and know enough that
Speaker:if something sounds really wonky, we
Speaker:can intercept.
Speaker:But I think it's very valuable
Speaker:in board conversations for people
Speaker:to understand where your level of
Speaker:expertise is and why you're sitting
Speaker:at the table.
Speaker:And I'm not going to try and pretend
Speaker:that I'm a financial expert
Speaker:and I'm going to understand the
Speaker:investment strategy in the way
Speaker:that these guys who do it all day
Speaker:long and for the most part, our
Speaker:guys, what they negotiate, how
Speaker:they think about it, all the ins and
Speaker:outs, it's fascinating to learn.
Speaker:No, I'm with you.
Speaker:And I think to tie your points
Speaker:together 100% and I think this is
Speaker:a level of proficiency that even
Speaker:a level proficiency that gives you
Speaker:the just gives you the confidence to
Speaker:be in the room when it's being
Speaker:spoken about.
Speaker:I totally agree on the forward
Speaker:facing piece. And I think that's why
Speaker:the balance sheet side of it is
Speaker:interesting because that's more of
Speaker:the forward facing.
Speaker:We know what will we be doing with
Speaker:the business, how do we leverage our
Speaker:assets, all of that sort of thing.
Speaker:And that's the bit that really
Speaker:missing.
Speaker:We talk about the business metrics
Speaker:side.
Speaker:I'm curious on that one.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So one woman's opinion, I just may
Speaker:as well like to cloak
Speaker:myself, say one woman's opinion
Speaker:since I sort of
Speaker:understood some different business
Speaker:models. I feel like I then
Speaker:got more of an appreciation for the
Speaker:business models I worked in,
Speaker:whereas I worked in subscription
Speaker:business models for a really long
Speaker:time. Right? So I know subscription
Speaker:business models like the back of my
Speaker:hand. You could ask me anything
Speaker:pretty much maybe.
Speaker:And I sort of I'd have a view
Speaker:of whether it's right or wrong.
Speaker:I have you and then I start learning
Speaker:about other ones and was like, Hey,
Speaker:that's interesting because if I'd
Speaker:have known that you could apply some
Speaker:of that to that.
Speaker:And actually just knowing one thing
Speaker:is all very well, but you then are
Speaker:in a complete vacuum and
Speaker:it's only after then, it's not
Speaker:like I've been seeing
Speaker:all the different business models
Speaker:out there, but just enough that I
Speaker:can then sort of have a bit of
Speaker:objective perspective.
Speaker:And yet you tend to find that
Speaker:actually because people stay in
Speaker:certain industries,
Speaker:they may like me, just be
Speaker:one, they may have one that's
Speaker:they know inside and out, and then
Speaker:you throw something else at them and
Speaker:they have no idea how it works.
Speaker:So it's the informing of like one
Speaker:business model against another and
Speaker:actually sort of the importance of
Speaker:different metrics and different
Speaker:places.
Speaker:And even what you can beg, borrow
Speaker:and steal.
Speaker:It's interesting because I have this
Speaker:emotional reaction of like, I'm in
Speaker:my space, I have my metrics,
Speaker:nothing else matters.
Speaker:And because I haven't looked, I
Speaker:don't know if I think it would be
Speaker:interesting. I think it's a fair
Speaker:challenge. And again, for me,
Speaker:it goes back to Jenny
Speaker:has captured my imagination.
Speaker:What are any of our worlds going to
Speaker:look like in five years, let alone
Speaker:ten years time?
Speaker:What are our new business models
Speaker:going to be?
Speaker:So I can get the idea of going
Speaker:out and learning different ones now
Speaker:just to realize that there is
Speaker:many options as there are
Speaker:to help open my mind to what the
Speaker:future might be.
Speaker:Rather than beg, borrow and steal
Speaker:for what today looks like.
Speaker:Because I really I'm trying to see
Speaker:how are all of our businesses, what
Speaker:are our lives going to be like
Speaker:in five years?
Speaker:Yeah. And I would almost double down
Speaker:on what you said, if any, because I
Speaker:kind of feel like the more you
Speaker:understand other types of businesses
Speaker:and how they operate from a business
Speaker:model point of view and their
Speaker:pricing and packaging and that sort
Speaker:of thing, it is helps inform
Speaker:how you think about your business
Speaker:and your context as to what's
Speaker:happening, because oftentimes
Speaker:things will come up or things will
Speaker:change, right?
Speaker:So suddenly we're going from
Speaker:enterprise selling into product like
Speaker:growth and you're like, okay, well
Speaker:what does that mean?
Speaker:So, so product like growth.
Speaker:I found I was stealing bits from my
Speaker:past to think through the PLG
Speaker:side of things and product line
Speaker:sales and so on.
Speaker:It's an interesting one.
Speaker:And even if I think about mine,
Speaker:Candy, so my Kelly was of course
Speaker:subscription, but we then went
Speaker:into licensing
Speaker:and licensing royalty went
Speaker:into music music royalties
Speaker:every time we went into a new piece.
Speaker:No idea. I was.
Speaker:Ooh, sounds interesting.
Speaker:I have to go figure out how that
Speaker:works then.
Speaker:But then the more I got into it, the
Speaker:more I was like, Gosh, this is
Speaker:really fascinating because depending
Speaker:on the assets that you create, the
Speaker:value you create, you can monetize
Speaker:it in many different ways, but you
Speaker:may get so fixed in one space
Speaker:that you can't actually see that
Speaker:there's opportunity.
Speaker:You know, I mean, there are
Speaker:multitude of ways to
Speaker:create even more value for the
Speaker:business from this thing,
Speaker:this piece value asset we've
Speaker:created.
Speaker:And yet it depends if I can see it
Speaker:or not, if it's even in my
Speaker:peripheral vision
Speaker:and it does come back to you,
Speaker:There's another gap on here, by the
Speaker:way, that's around future facing
Speaker:projects and opportunities for
Speaker:businesses.
Speaker:And again, I wonder if this is
Speaker:because normally it's seen as the
Speaker:purview of the CEO.
Speaker:No, no. This shows the development
Speaker:of the business is down to you.
Speaker:But actually, I
Speaker:think it's one of the most
Speaker:interesting bits.
Speaker:So I always loved being part of that
Speaker:as a CEO.
Speaker:And so developing knowledge
Speaker:in that area. But interesting that
Speaker:it's a gap.
Speaker:A big gap as well.
Speaker:The gap is future.
Speaker:So defining future based
Speaker:opportunities for business, whether
Speaker:it be, I think, sweating
Speaker:current assets in a different way
Speaker:or M&A,
Speaker:corporate development ways
Speaker:to grow a business that may be
Speaker:slightly outside of your
Speaker:kind of experience, set
Speaker:Some of these gaps I think are just
Speaker:like a lack of opportunity rather
Speaker:than something that you need to go
Speaker:out immediately.
Speaker:Like I guess I'm just thinking it's
Speaker:a just in time learning and
Speaker:you figure it out.
Speaker:You need to.
Speaker:I think there's like a step down
Speaker:situation where you have
Speaker:the same product repackaged,
Speaker:repurposed for a different
Speaker:marketplace.
Speaker:Somebody needs to figure out how to
Speaker:sell it into that new space and not
Speaker:sell it in this space where we
Speaker:structure our program to go into
Speaker:that new space whereby you're
Speaker:pulling the assets of the company in
Speaker:a different direction and how you
Speaker:operationally pull that together,
Speaker:programmatically set it in motion
Speaker:and get the resources behind it to
Speaker:make it happen without distracting
Speaker:the company in a way that is not
Speaker:helpful, basically.
Speaker:There is definitely an art and a
Speaker:science to that, and I think the
Speaker:operator having space and capacity
Speaker:to be able to focus on things like
Speaker:that is something is really
Speaker:important.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:Well, it's interesting and it always
Speaker:brings me back to this.
Speaker:And again, so tangible example, when
Speaker:I was at mind, Candy, we created a
Speaker:secondary product for children,
Speaker:which was a creative space
Speaker:that they could be creative in
Speaker:and sort of a community social
Speaker:network type of thing.
Speaker:And because we then
Speaker:got to a point where we didn't feel
Speaker:like we the right people to run it,
Speaker:it got divested, we sold it to
Speaker:Super Awesome, who's clever
Speaker:because we sold it to them, but with
Speaker:a kickback that then meant that
Speaker:we then could keep
Speaker:cash coming in from it as they
Speaker:monetized and put it through their
Speaker:advertising channels and really sort
Speaker:of boosted its revenue.
Speaker:So the more they then did that, the
Speaker:more money. We then got back
Speaker:for a period of time, which helped
Speaker:the business to sort of stabilize
Speaker:itself over time.
Speaker:I would have thought that not at the
Speaker:time.
Speaker:I was like, Well, and of course my
Speaker:clever, clever buy was a bit like,
Speaker:That's really good.
Speaker:That's just such a good thing to do.
Speaker:There's something about that skill
Speaker:set around spotting opportunities.
Speaker:I don't have it, by the way.
Speaker:That's not my natural mode of
Speaker:operation at all.
Speaker:If we think about sort of CMO as
Speaker:being a true partner to the CEO
Speaker:founder, and this is where I got
Speaker:involved in this because I used to
Speaker:then love having conversations with
Speaker:them about it, or I was like, this,
Speaker:I didn't know anything about This is
Speaker:really interesting and stuff that
Speaker:they would then tell me and I'd be
Speaker:like, I wouldn't even have noticed
Speaker:that. Wouldn't even if that wouldn't
Speaker:have come into my brain.
Speaker:Different way of thinking.
Speaker:So I wonder if it's that sage
Speaker:or trusted advisor,
Speaker:CEO, CMO partnership thing.
Speaker:Having a bit of kind of that
Speaker:way of thinking is sometimes
Speaker:helpful.
Speaker:I think it's also entrepreneurs are
Speaker:just rule breakers
Speaker:or not even a rule, not
Speaker:series. I don't even know if they're
Speaker:breaking rules.
Speaker:It's just like,
Speaker:yeah, there are no boundaries,
Speaker:nothing.
Speaker:And CEOs are
Speaker:quite often rule creators,
Speaker:enforcers and followers.
Speaker:And therefore our brains are not
Speaker:always necessarily going for
Speaker:like infinite possibilities
Speaker:where as entrepreneurs
Speaker:tend to and everything
Speaker:has a plus and
Speaker:like a dark side and a light side.
Speaker:And so the light side
Speaker:is what you're talking about with a
Speaker:lovely kick back.
Speaker:And then the dark side are just
Speaker:deals that are horrible
Speaker:and you never actually see any money
Speaker:from or possibly
Speaker:illegal, you know?
Speaker:It's like it's always true, isn't
Speaker:it?
Speaker:But I don't think that's I think the
Speaker:the relationship in that way is
Speaker:where the CEO can really be helpful
Speaker:to the CEO, which is sometimes, as
Speaker:we know, CEOs can have all sorts of
Speaker:crazy ideas about all sorts of
Speaker:things and drag the company in
Speaker:different directions that are super
Speaker:unhelpful and very destructive in a
Speaker:lot of ways.
Speaker:So the question of having a sensible
Speaker:CEO sitting there to talk that stuff
Speaker:through, but also for the CEO to
Speaker:have some level of like ally
Speaker:element to them where they're not
Speaker:going to simply dismiss what the
Speaker:CEO. Saying outright, but actually
Speaker:having that open minded space to
Speaker:think it through with them, to
Speaker:bounce back and forth a little bit
Speaker:and to help the two of you come to a
Speaker:mutual conclusion.
Speaker:One, it's the worst thing you can
Speaker:say to a co-founder right now.
Speaker:First is, yeah, it's a great idea.
Speaker:I'm not sure we can do it now, but
Speaker:let's put it on the backlog or
Speaker:something, you know, let's discuss
Speaker:it and actually see if we could.
Speaker:But the worst thing is, I know right
Speaker:then you are a blocker and a barrier
Speaker:and all of those things.
Speaker:So the old adage from improv,
Speaker:it's always the yes and response.
Speaker:For our listeners.
Speaker:If they could only remember one
Speaker:thing from our conversation today,
Speaker:what would it be?
Speaker:I think this piece of string space
Speaker:management is actually really
Speaker:important.
Speaker:I mentioned to you I've been to all
Speaker:apps the session, I've been thinking
Speaker:about this where I was like, I love
Speaker:this because I now know how I can
Speaker:support my zeros further.
Speaker:However, how do you build
Speaker:on your strengths and really lean
Speaker:into those and get proficient
Speaker:enough in the areas that
Speaker:are your gaps so that you are
Speaker:your perceived gaps in order that
Speaker:you feel confident in your role.
Speaker:Because I think that's the important
Speaker:piece about it.
Speaker:It's actually about, as you were
Speaker:saying, it's like just internal
Speaker:learning just in time.
Speaker:Learning is absolutely fine.
Speaker:Like that's a good way of going
Speaker:about things.
Speaker:And how can you know enough that you
Speaker:just feel confident in those rooms
Speaker:and spaces where you need to hold a
Speaker:good conversation.
Speaker:So I think that's the takeaway.
Speaker:Lovely. So thank you for coming back
Speaker:on to the operations room.
Speaker:If you like what you hear, please
Speaker:leave a comment or subscribe and we
Speaker:will see you next week.
