67. COO Superpowers Revealed Part 2
In this episode we discuss: What is a COO's strengths and gaps? We are joined by Divinia Knowles, The COO Coach.
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We chat about the following:
- How do COOs turn their knowledge gaps into strengths through experience?
- What can personality tests like the Enneagram teach us about effective COOs?
- How do COOs balance servant leadership with the challenges it brings?
- What’s the secret to building a powerhouse CEO-COO relationship?
- How can COOs use self-awareness to grow as leaders and advisors?
References
Biography
Divinia Knowles is an accomplished operator and coach with extensive experience supporting startup and scale-up COOs, CEOs, and leadership teams through growth, exit, and beyond. With a career spanning roles as COO, CFO, CEO, and Board Advisor, Divinia has worked with companies like Pact Coffee and Mind Candy, helping scale global brands and drive success.
As the founder of the London COO Roundtable, Divinia has built a thriving network for operational leaders. Since 2017, she’s coached over 150 executives, combining advanced coaching accreditation with expertise in organizational psychology, resilience, and team dynamics.
To learn more about Beth and Brandon or to find out about sponsorship opportunities click here.
Summary
16:42 Exploring COO Strengths and Weaknesses
26:36 Personality Types and Archetypes in Leadership
28:09 The Shadow Side of COOs
29:06 Servant Leadership
30:21 The Relationship Between COOs and CEOs
35:24 Ruminating vs. Acting: Different Leadership Styles
37:24 Embracing Public Speaking and Thinking on Your Feet
39:28 The Ruminator: Processing Information Over Time
41:04 The Caregiver Archetype in Leadership
45:39 Balancing Empathy and Performance Management
47:54 The Nature of Relationships in Leadership
48:44 Directness and Good Intent in Communication
49:33 Embracing Self-Awareness and Personal Growth
Transcript
Hello, everyone, and welcome to the
Speaker:Operations Room, a podcast for CEOs.
Speaker:I am Brandon Bensinger joined by my
Speaker:lovely co as Bethany Iris.
Speaker:How are things going?
Speaker:Bethany Hey, I'm back to being
Speaker:lovely.
Speaker:I always notice which way the intro
Speaker:is. Things are okay.
Speaker:I am not the Christmas spirit.
Speaker:Do you have a Christmas tree up yet?
Speaker:Yes, we have a Christmas tree.
Speaker:So I'm allergic to actual Christmas
Speaker:trees. So whatever pine trees or
Speaker:what have you. So we can actually
Speaker:add them, which is a boon, to be
Speaker:honest, because then I have to deal
Speaker:with a buying one, be dealing
Speaker:with all the pine needles everywhere
Speaker:and so on. So we have a fake
Speaker:tree, the same tree that goes up
Speaker:every year. We actually just got our
Speaker:I don't know what you call it.
Speaker:They give it like this massive
Speaker:bundle of all the crafts
Speaker:that the kids have done over the
Speaker:past three months.
Speaker:So it is a huge batch of stuff.
Speaker:We always wonder what to do with
Speaker:these things, right? Like, this
Speaker:thing. So you have to pass through
Speaker:it, you know, what are the golden
Speaker:nugget? So you want to save and then
Speaker:the rest of it you have to obviously
Speaker:put through recycling.
Speaker:But you have to gently put it
Speaker:through.
Speaker:Are you to suddenly put it through
Speaker:and nobody can discover,
Speaker:but yet they will never remember it
Speaker:again. So as long as you do it
Speaker:without getting caught, it's
Speaker:absolutely fine.
Speaker:It just isn't feeling Christmasy
Speaker:here. I don't quite know what I'm
Speaker:taking time off work, so I feel like
Speaker:I'm yeah, I'm just in this limbo
Speaker:of work is really,
Speaker:really, really busy.
Speaker:And yet the sun came
Speaker:up at 730 in the
Speaker:morning. It goes down before
Speaker:four.
Speaker:My whole body wants to cuckoo.
Speaker:And yet work is like the busiest
Speaker:period of the year.
Speaker:I always find this really difficult
Speaker:and we still have about four
Speaker:deals to sign that are going
Speaker:to happen some time between now
Speaker:and the 31st, which again
Speaker:means that you can't entirely
Speaker:breathe out.
Speaker:And they're big enterprise deals.
Speaker:They have been in close
Speaker:plans since October
Speaker:with everybody saying we want to
Speaker:close before Christmas.
Speaker:Everybody going 100%.
Speaker:We're going to close before
Speaker:Christmas. And then it just slips
Speaker:and then it just seems a little bit
Speaker:more. And this little list, the
Speaker:31st.
Speaker:That's a lot of pressure.
Speaker:Yeah. And then
Speaker:something I want to talk to you
Speaker:about, Brandon, was our strategy
Speaker:days.
Speaker:We've done strategy in
Speaker:October and we've done strategy
Speaker:in January.
Speaker:And this year, maybe because I
Speaker:joined middle of September,
Speaker:we've ended up pushing the strategy
Speaker:date back to January again.
Speaker:So not only was there board
Speaker:meetings, budget planning,
Speaker:end of year wrap up, I
Speaker:also spent a lot of yesterday
Speaker:thinking through our strategy
Speaker:day and format and pre
Speaker:reads and questions to cover
Speaker:for when we
Speaker:come back.
Speaker:When do you do your strategy days
Speaker:and how do you do your strategy days
Speaker:or what way do you think works the
Speaker:best?
Speaker:I would say that I feel like the
Speaker:December team
Speaker:week, I think to me is the right
Speaker:time generally to do the stuff
Speaker:because you want a time period where
Speaker:clearly there is time and space
Speaker:to reflect on what has happened.
Speaker:I mean, I think this whole
Speaker:reflection on how is the year gone?
Speaker:What does it look like?
Speaker:How is it felt to us?
Speaker:What results have we seen or not
Speaker:seen? And the learning's taken away
Speaker:from that very clearly is kind of
Speaker:like a December mojo thing, I would
Speaker:say. Your vibe in the stuffing, not
Speaker:a vibe you're going to get in
Speaker:January where it's like, go, go, go.
Speaker:The second piece is the culture part
Speaker:of it, which is I always used to
Speaker:call this strategy day or strategy
Speaker:days or strategy week or whatever.
Speaker:And at some point somebody was
Speaker:telling me like, Look, Brenton,
Speaker:every day is Strategy Day.
Speaker:Every day you should be thinking in
Speaker:the back of your head around What
Speaker:are we doing?
Speaker:And it puts a lot of pressure on the
Speaker:week itself as well to like somehow
Speaker:deliver some transformative
Speaker:new strategy or better strategy
Speaker:or whatever you want to call it, I
Speaker:guess.
Speaker:So we ended up calling it Team week,
Speaker:and Team Week is reflective of
Speaker:the team itself, the reflection on
Speaker:the year and the team thinking about
Speaker:the year ahead of us.
Speaker:It's interesting. I like that.
Speaker:I agree in the
Speaker:strategy is every day and
Speaker:also so the new way
Speaker:that we're meeting as an exact team
Speaker:is we meet twice a week.
Speaker:And at first I was like, my God,
Speaker:that's a lot of meetings.
Speaker:But actually it works really well
Speaker:because we have two maximum
Speaker:one hour meetings a week and I
Speaker:say maximum because sometimes we're
Speaker:done in 35 minutes
Speaker:and other times we take the full
Speaker:hour and the first
Speaker:meeting of the week, we
Speaker:do our AWB R so Weekly business
Speaker:review and so
Speaker:the we are has.
Speaker:Forecast pipeline
Speaker:escudos
Speaker:cash collected,
Speaker:which is mostly like a help needed
Speaker:if somebody you know isn't.
Speaker:We need to escalate that somebody is
Speaker:not paying, that they're ignoring
Speaker:us or whatever.
Speaker:We have one of those the other week.
Speaker:I don't know if I should be sharing
Speaker:this or not, but I'm not sharing
Speaker:names. We have one of the other
Speaker:week. We just wasn't paying, wasn't
Speaker:paying.
Speaker:And there's escalated to me and I
Speaker:was prepared for this really tough
Speaker:conversation.
Speaker:And I just said, so basically, let
Speaker:me explain how we see it anyway,
Speaker:okay, I guess we have to pay.
Speaker:And then he paid.
Speaker:It's like this conversation
Speaker:I've ever had.
Speaker:Okay. Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah. So that was amazing.
Speaker:Sometimes you just have to ask.
Speaker:I was like pushing back to junior
Speaker:people and I guess maybe just having
Speaker:a senior person do it.
Speaker:I honestly have no idea.
Speaker:Or we had to explained it well.
Speaker:Explain the invoice in a different
Speaker:way.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker:Pretty much. That was. I was just
Speaker:like, This is what you're paid,
Speaker:this is what you need to pay.
Speaker:And he went, okay,
Speaker:So we talked about like cash
Speaker:collection, monthly active
Speaker:users or I guess weekly active users
Speaker:of a couple of different products,
Speaker:that kind of stuff.
Speaker:And so we, we run through
Speaker:it. Sometimes there's a
Speaker:conversation, sometimes there's not
Speaker:much of a conversation at all.
Speaker:So it can be anything from
Speaker:ten minutes to half an hour
Speaker:depending on if something's
Speaker:surfaced.
Speaker:And then we bring up whatever other
Speaker:topics we need.
Speaker:And then we have a second meeting on
Speaker:a Thursday where it
Speaker:is whatever topics
Speaker:we need to cover as a group.
Speaker:But that will often,
Speaker:if there aren't any, just like base
Speaker:stuff, will just become
Speaker:discussions over a topic that
Speaker:somebody is thinking about.
Speaker:And so we have like these kind of
Speaker:like micro
Speaker:strategy chats.
Speaker:So we're working
Speaker:through and untangling something on
Speaker:a very regular basis, and that seems
Speaker:to be working well
Speaker:and not having it be as structured.
Speaker:So generally I think you're on to
Speaker:something here because I found a
Speaker:similar strand eventually,
Speaker:and it took me a while to realize
Speaker:what was happening and why it was
Speaker:happening, but very similar thing,
Speaker:which is we had a structured
Speaker:leadership meeting which was 90
Speaker:minutes, which eventually turned
Speaker:into a two hour block once a week
Speaker:that we would have a two hour block
Speaker:would be half kind of like
Speaker:our stuff. So the key KPIs
Speaker:of the business, making sure that
Speaker:we're on that, tracking that
Speaker:and accountable to that and looking
Speaker:at the gaps, why they were happening
Speaker:and kind of assigning out kind of
Speaker:outcomes and next steps to solve
Speaker:issues.
Speaker:And then the second half, that
Speaker:meeting was kind of a
Speaker:cross-functional problem that we
Speaker:were having where we had pre reads
Speaker:coming into those meetings to
Speaker:discuss a particular topic that was
Speaker:well set up or structured in the
Speaker:sense of here's the pre read, here's
Speaker:what the issue is, here's a bunch of
Speaker:the thoughts behind it.
Speaker:Now collectively, let's get together
Speaker:and have a structured conversation
Speaker:as to how to get to know, cover
Speaker:a set of next steps that can put
Speaker:this problem to bed
Speaker:so we never see it again
Speaker:effectively.
Speaker:So we would do this and it
Speaker:kind of worked and it was kind of
Speaker:okay. And at some
Speaker:point I think the SEO founder
Speaker:kicked off a different thing almost
Speaker:in a way, like essentially getting
Speaker:together for coffee.
Speaker:And it wasn't the entire leadership
Speaker:team, it was just the C-suite.
Speaker:And at that point there was four of
Speaker:us having this coffee and
Speaker:completely unstructured, throwing
Speaker:out thoughts and having ideas.
Speaker:And the power of that conversation
Speaker:ultimately, I think was better than
Speaker:our structured meeting in terms of
Speaker:the thoughts were having that were
Speaker:much more organic, much more
Speaker:creative, much more riffing.
Speaker:I would say there's a different feel
Speaker:to having a discussion where you're
Speaker:kind of bouncing off each other,
Speaker:where it's not geared up as like
Speaker:this thing of like, okay, we have
Speaker:a pre read and it's a big
Speaker:conversation everyone's ready for.
Speaker:I there's a bit of like defensive
Speaker:posturing and
Speaker:all that other stuff that comes with
Speaker:structured meetings ultimately for
Speaker:us and ultimately for the company.
Speaker:That's where we passed it down to
Speaker:eventually, which is, okay, let's
Speaker:do our WB hours and
Speaker:let's have this coffee chat and open
Speaker:up to the rest of leadership as
Speaker:well. I'll have this kind of like
Speaker:wider discussion or that that is
Speaker:more unstructured.
Speaker:So I think eventually we found a
Speaker:router, a route to kind of
Speaker:what you're doing.
Speaker:And what we've also done
Speaker:to have this slightly more
Speaker:structured conversations is we do
Speaker:a MVR once
Speaker:a month.
Speaker:And how that works
Speaker:is we have
Speaker:a set of ready made
Speaker:slides or, you know, like areas that
Speaker:we look at. It's like basically
Speaker:similar to what we share with the
Speaker:board. So financial performance
Speaker:forecast, pipeline
Speaker:skills, actuals again, and then
Speaker:the kind of the equivalent you can
Speaker:see where my my spike is.
Speaker:I like that's looking at where's the
Speaker:money and are we getting more money?
Speaker:But then we have similar ones for
Speaker:for product and
Speaker:people in engineering and then
Speaker:we try and keep that to like
Speaker:maximum 30 slides
Speaker:so that it's really all that
Speaker:actually matters
Speaker:and it's pretty standard.
Speaker:So because it's like I think
Speaker:people forget that it's creating
Speaker:slides is not only onerous
Speaker:on the person creating them, but
Speaker:it's onerous on the person who has
Speaker:to read them. And so it's down to
Speaker:the person creating them to make
Speaker:sure that they're sharing the most
Speaker:important information rather than
Speaker:all the information.
Speaker:And so it's actually hard to keep it
Speaker:limited to what we need.
Speaker:People tend to sneak in a little bit
Speaker:more and then the feedback is it's
Speaker:gotten to getting too long and it's
Speaker:hurting my brain and then like strip
Speaker:stuff out again. And then we have
Speaker:in certain areas where we're
Speaker:working through harder
Speaker:problems, bits of analysis.
Speaker:And so anyhow, I read
Speaker:the whole deck ahead of time
Speaker:and then think about
Speaker:the themes, the topics
Speaker:we need to resolve and
Speaker:my analysis on it.
Speaker:And so then the
Speaker:agenda basically changes
Speaker:every month.
Speaker:We do like a very quick run through
Speaker:of how's everybody's what do we
Speaker:need to know about everybody's area?
Speaker:And then we cover one, two, three
Speaker:topics in detail
Speaker:and I'll work through the data
Speaker:and what other people have said and
Speaker:the analysis that they've shared
Speaker:come up with a framing.
Speaker:And then we work it through.
Speaker:And so that's almost like we're
Speaker:dealing in a way, again, with some
Speaker:of the strategy stuff monthly.
Speaker:And then for this monthly review,
Speaker:it's again with the leadership team
Speaker:and the slide creation of who's
Speaker:creating that is each the functional
Speaker:leaders doing their pieces and then
Speaker:passing that together or how does
Speaker:that happen?
Speaker:So some of it is like a large
Speaker:chunk of it is.
Speaker:And because it's the same stuff that
Speaker:we're sending to the board.
Speaker:And then there'll be the functional
Speaker:leaders will
Speaker:have maybe a little bit extra.
Speaker:That isn't stuff that goes to the
Speaker:board like monthly user
Speaker:active users is not something that
Speaker:the board is caring about.
Speaker:I think that's a fantastic idea
Speaker:because you're doing two things
Speaker:quite usefully actually, which is
Speaker:every single month you're on a
Speaker:pathway to the quarters review
Speaker:with the board in very similar
Speaker:format. So you are as a leadership
Speaker:team being accountable and tracking
Speaker:to the progression of the company in
Speaker:the same kind of progression that
Speaker:the board is going to want to see at
Speaker:the end of the quarter.
Speaker:So by the time you get to the end of
Speaker:that quarter, you have to do nothing
Speaker:special at that point because you've
Speaker:been tracking this month to month up
Speaker:until that point, which is great.
Speaker:The second bit of
Speaker:the strategic analysis on a monthly
Speaker:basis, there has to be some place,
Speaker:the organization where that occurs
Speaker:because it's not going to happen in
Speaker:your weekly sessions and it has to
Speaker:happen somewhere.
Speaker:And then it becomes a question of do
Speaker:you do it monthly or do you do a
Speaker:quarterly?
Speaker:In my previous company
Speaker:we did it more on a quarterly basis.
Speaker:However, we also had another
Speaker:meeting that was happening, which is
Speaker:every cross-functional OKR
Speaker:team where leadership was involved
Speaker:in those OKR teams as well.
Speaker:We would basically have the OKR
Speaker:teams come together and basically
Speaker:present their progress for the
Speaker:month. So we had four
Speaker:cross-functional teams and therefore
Speaker:we had four kind of monthly reviews
Speaker:on our progress.
Speaker:And maybe that's a slightly
Speaker:different thing that we're talking
Speaker:about, but it's another batch of
Speaker:meetings that are tracking the
Speaker:progress of the company.
Speaker:In this case, it's on the what
Speaker:you define as the most important
Speaker:things in the business to progress
Speaker:on. So I'm not sure what you make of
Speaker:that.
Speaker:It's just really interesting.
Speaker:This is how every business runs.
Speaker:And I'm not even convinced that
Speaker:what we're doing is perfect.
Speaker:You know, I don't think there is
Speaker:such a thing as perfect.
Speaker:I mean, it sounds reasonable to me.
Speaker:Basically, I haven't done it.
Speaker:It comes down to the culture of the
Speaker:business. And I suspect
Speaker:that what the meetings
Speaker:are and when they're held
Speaker:is less important than
Speaker:how effective the meetings are.
Speaker:And it's almost like, how do you get
Speaker:to the point of efficacy
Speaker:rather than copying somebody
Speaker:else's schedule.
Speaker:This is where the culture of the
Speaker:company and the particular trappings
Speaker:of the company comes in, because we
Speaker:had a very good, healthy culture
Speaker:around accountability for the
Speaker:doctors.
Speaker:There was the teams that
Speaker:drove the process.
Speaker:I would say, behind doing this.
Speaker:Cross-functional monthly reviews are
Speaker:progress check ins.
Speaker:And they put in a good,
Speaker:clear effort to ensure they could
Speaker:articulate that in terms of where
Speaker:the initiatives were at, where the
Speaker:results were at, what the month
Speaker:had looked like, what the next month
Speaker:ahead would look like.
Speaker:And those sessions, from a efficacy
Speaker:standpoint, I thought were really
Speaker:super valuable and very, very
Speaker:useful.
Speaker:Previously, I have spent a
Speaker:tremendous amount of time tracking
Speaker:activity, like agreeing actions
Speaker:and making sure people do actions
Speaker:and a high level accountability
Speaker:around action.
Speaker:And what I've started doing
Speaker:this time around is
Speaker:not really focusing on the action at
Speaker:all. It may be because it's the
Speaker:exact team and a lot of the doers
Speaker:are not in that meeting,
Speaker:but it's around surfacing
Speaker:areas where we need to have the hard
Speaker:conversations.
Speaker:And it's basically
Speaker:the problem keeps arising because
Speaker:we don't make the decision
Speaker:or we don't have the conversation
Speaker:or we talk around something
Speaker:and then kind of feel like we have a
Speaker:resolution and because, okay,
Speaker:but if you look back and reflect, we
Speaker:have no resolution.
Speaker:And what I'm really doing is
Speaker:focusing on
Speaker:let's resolve something or
Speaker:let's realize we can't resolve it
Speaker:because we need more information.
Speaker:Let's go and find the information
Speaker:and then reopen.
Speaker:The conversations have been very
Speaker:clear on whether or not.
Speaker:We have resolution and that seems
Speaker:to be a real unlock way
Speaker:more than an action tracker.
Speaker:I think sometimes when you have
Speaker:these conversations, various things
Speaker:happen in people's heads, right?
Speaker:Where they're like, I kind of buy
Speaker:into this, but I kind of don't.
Speaker:Or more often than I kind
Speaker:of buy into this, but I kind of
Speaker:don't care.
Speaker:So therefore, in earnest, I'm not
Speaker:really going to try to solve this
Speaker:problem. And what ends up happening
Speaker:is that that problem will come back
Speaker:into the leadership meeting in a
Speaker:mutated form at some point down the
Speaker:road. And you're kind of looking at
Speaker:it again. You're like, why is this
Speaker:happening?
Speaker:This gets to the culture of the
Speaker:leadership team and the facilitator
Speaker:that's helping make it happen,
Speaker:which is sussing out at the
Speaker:end of that meeting probably the
Speaker:beginning, to be honest, which is
Speaker:like, how much do we care about
Speaker:this? Like do we honestly, the
Speaker:people that we're talking like we
Speaker:all have a thousand things to do.
Speaker:Is this an important problem that we
Speaker:should talk about now?
Speaker:Is it urgent enough?
Speaker:Is it pervasive enough?
Speaker:And if it is, let's talk it through.
Speaker:Let's come to an agreement on it and
Speaker:let's get it done. Basically, that
Speaker:it's not. Look at this again.
Speaker:I think because we're all good
Speaker:communicators, it can feel like
Speaker:you've made a decision or you've
Speaker:kind of gone around and you've had a
Speaker:chat here and had a chat there and
Speaker:and you've had like a complete
Speaker:conversation and
Speaker:it feels like you've made a
Speaker:decision. And then if you take a
Speaker:step back, you realize like no
Speaker:decision has been made.
Speaker:We've all just aired our views
Speaker:and agreed with each other's views
Speaker:or disagreed with each other's
Speaker:views. But there's not been
Speaker:something after that.
Speaker:We've discussed around
Speaker:the topic.
Speaker:I feel as though most of my career
Speaker:has been this experience.
Speaker:Like it's not unique to peak where
Speaker:we can have this really robust
Speaker:conversation and actually nothing
Speaker:has been decided and somehow we
Speaker:haven't noticed it.
Speaker:But it gets back to like the
Speaker:initially five steps in those
Speaker:meetings, right?
Speaker:Once you've like mined for your
Speaker:disagreement, you've been able to
Speaker:air everything. You've co-created a
Speaker:shared understanding of the problem
Speaker:and you're driving towards buy in.
Speaker:And then the next step after that is
Speaker:like, I think, reflection back
Speaker:to the group saying, okay, here's
Speaker:what I think we've decided or what
Speaker:the outcome is.
Speaker:Do we actually do we agree to that?
Speaker:Like that second half of the meeting
Speaker:is probably the critical piece to to
Speaker:drive it to a conclusion.
Speaker:I think previously in my career,
Speaker:it's kind of like a tension only
Speaker:like there's so much to it.
Speaker:This is an obvious conversation.
Speaker:We've resolved it done, whereas
Speaker:really we haven't resolved it at
Speaker:all.
Speaker:And I'm focusing much more on that
Speaker:now.
Speaker:All right. We've got part two in our
Speaker:series, which is what are the gaps
Speaker:in the SEO toolkit?
Speaker:We have a lovely returning
Speaker:guest, Stephanie Knowles, and
Speaker:she is the founder of the SEO
Speaker:roundtable and the former CEO
Speaker:of Mind Candy.
Speaker:So this episode really
Speaker:is digging into the shadow side
Speaker:of the SEO strengths.
Speaker:And Davinia had talked
Speaker:about four strengths
Speaker:of the SEO that are human
Speaker:archetypes. And I wanted to go
Speaker:through each of the four with you.
Speaker:So the first one that she'd
Speaker:spoken about was the caregiver
Speaker:SEO.
Speaker:And this is a person that focuses on
Speaker:creating a supportive and nurturing
Speaker:environment within the organization.
Speaker:And the weakness of their.
Speaker:The shadow side is
Speaker:over protection and excessive
Speaker:leniency, avoiding tough
Speaker:decisions, trying to preserve
Speaker:harmony, becoming overly involved
Speaker:in day to day issues, preventing
Speaker:scalability and strategic focus.
Speaker:So without weakness in
Speaker:play and for that kind of caregiving
Speaker:SEO, what would be some tips
Speaker:to that person to mitigate
Speaker:that weakness?
Speaker:I think it's about four factors.
Speaker:Taking and also the difference
Speaker:between being nice and being kind
Speaker:and looking at your behavior.
Speaker:And so if you're somebody who does
Speaker:not like being disagreeable,
Speaker:disagree ability is another one of
Speaker:these psychological things.
Speaker:And yet another one of these tests,
Speaker:so agreeable and disagreeable is
Speaker:like whether or not you mind
Speaker:being a bit of a contrarian or
Speaker:causing some discomfort within an
Speaker:organization.
Speaker:And so if you are somebody
Speaker:who really does not like being
Speaker:disagreeable, really likes
Speaker:harmony, it is difficult
Speaker:to have those hard conversations
Speaker:and is easy to be a bit avoidant
Speaker:in those situations and easy
Speaker:to think about being nice
Speaker:and having probably been praised as
Speaker:a child about being nice.
Speaker:And isn't that a strength of yours?
Speaker:And nice particularly, I think for
Speaker:women. You know, being nice is one
Speaker:of those things that we're supposed
Speaker:to be, but that is not the same as
Speaker:being kind.
Speaker:And I think it's much more important
Speaker:to be kind than it is to be nice.
Speaker:And so if you
Speaker:don't have the difficult
Speaker:conversations, if you don't hold
Speaker:people to account, if you don't give
Speaker:feedback so that they can do better,
Speaker:you end up enticing them to the
Speaker:point too, that you then have to
Speaker:fire them.
Speaker:And it's a total surprise.
Speaker:And actually the much kinder thing
Speaker:is to give people the ability to
Speaker:change along the way for the
Speaker:organization to develop along the
Speaker:way.
Speaker:So number two, the Sage SEO.
Speaker:So this is the strategist and the
Speaker:analyst leveraging data and
Speaker:knowledge drive operational
Speaker:efficiency and growth.
Speaker:And the weakness
Speaker:of the sage SEO is analysis
Speaker:by paralysis and detachment.
Speaker:Detachment in the sense of going
Speaker:through intellectual exercises and
Speaker:thinking through great strategies
Speaker:and ways to be effective in the
Speaker:business. But when it comes to
Speaker:actually getting buy in from
Speaker:individuals and getting the heart
Speaker:and soul of business to move in a
Speaker:direction, there's that detachment
Speaker:piece where they're not quite not
Speaker:particularly strong at that.
Speaker:I thought Sage
Speaker:could be part of me,
Speaker:but my idea of a sage was more
Speaker:like the wise
Speaker:man, because why not be gendered
Speaker:here?
Speaker:Sitting on the mountaintop
Speaker:that everybody goes to for
Speaker:sage bits of advice.
Speaker:And I feel as though I'm that one
Speaker:rather than the analysis paralysis.
Speaker:And what I think
Speaker:my weakness is, if we use
Speaker:my definition of the sage
Speaker:is I'll have a certain
Speaker:amount of fixed mindset because it's
Speaker:like my wisdom and only my wisdom.
Speaker:Rather than being flexible that
Speaker:there could be other wisdom.
Speaker:And also because a lot of my
Speaker:self esteem is wrapped up in knowing
Speaker:things and being
Speaker:the one who has seen it
Speaker:before, it can
Speaker:be hard for me to step away from
Speaker:what I decide is the right thing.
Speaker:And it's not just intellectually
Speaker:hard. It's emotionally hard.
Speaker:And so for me, that would be what it
Speaker:is, is like growth mindset
Speaker:has got me where I am and
Speaker:maintaining a growth mindset.
Speaker:Even when you think that
Speaker:you are the wisest person
Speaker:is the challenge and the shadow side
Speaker:for me.
Speaker:And then there's also maybe
Speaker:this is another part of the sage
Speaker:element is when you have
Speaker:another sage,
Speaker:join the exec
Speaker:team.
Speaker:I get myself freaked out because I'm
Speaker:like, my role here
Speaker:is being.
Speaker:I'm the sage.
Speaker:I think
Speaker:it is interesting because part of me
Speaker:is like, we need more experience.
Speaker:I love having you at New Voice
Speaker:Media. We had loads of experience
Speaker:around the table. I was at least
Speaker:experienced. I was playing a
Speaker:different role.
Speaker:I really valued everybody else's
Speaker:experience around the table.
Speaker:But when I am the
Speaker:one with the most experience in the
Speaker:room and that has become my self
Speaker:worth, and then you have somebody
Speaker:else coming in who's like, No, I
Speaker:know more that one.
Speaker:Like even just talking about it, I
Speaker:can feel the tension in my stomach
Speaker:of like, what's my role if this
Speaker:isn't my role anymore?
Speaker:And so it's just the
Speaker:the physical response I'm having
Speaker:talking about it right now.
Speaker:One, I'm feeling very vulnerable.
Speaker:And two, it's clearly something I
Speaker:need to work through because my
Speaker:whole body is in flight
Speaker:mode over the idea
Speaker:of somebody taking my place.
Speaker:Massive shadow side raising
Speaker:its head at the moment.
Speaker:The third one is the hero solo.
Speaker:So this is the action oriented,
Speaker:driving the organization toward
Speaker:ambitious goals by overcoming
Speaker:challenges and inspiring resilience.
Speaker:That sounds totally amazing.
Speaker:That's you bias for action.
Speaker:So the weakness here of that
Speaker:one is overextension
Speaker:and burnout over committing to
Speaker:ambitious goals, leading to
Speaker:unrealistic expectations for
Speaker:themselves and their teams, taking
Speaker:on too much personally, undermining
Speaker:delegation and team empowerment
Speaker:that.
Speaker:Is so 100% me that it's just feel
Speaker:like you're taking on too
Speaker:much, you know,
Speaker:burnout.
Speaker:And I think there's also so there's
Speaker:a hero and then there's it's tied up
Speaker:with the fact that you're able to do
Speaker:a lot of things and so you end up
Speaker:taking on all these other roles.
Speaker:I can remember that.
Speaker:You know, that's another element.
Speaker:Charlene talked about it.
Speaker:Didn't she like the ability to be
Speaker:big and small and
Speaker:the glue that sticks it all
Speaker:together?
Speaker:Yeah, this is 100% me.
Speaker:And a lesson I have to learn
Speaker:over and over again is not to push
Speaker:the team too hard, not to make
Speaker:them cry out of exhaustion
Speaker:and burnout. Because
Speaker:if I can do it, the whole team can
Speaker:do it. Not to make my self burnout,
Speaker:which I think has been I'm not burnt
Speaker:out, but the theme of the last few
Speaker:episodes has been it's dark
Speaker:and cold and miserable
Speaker:and I don't want to
Speaker:do anymore.
Speaker:So, you know, but I really like
Speaker:Rejoint for four months, so I don't
Speaker:refusing to use the word burnout
Speaker:here.
Speaker:Again, if I'm being really
Speaker:vulnerable and open today on
Speaker:all of this is I have, instead
Speaker:of acknowledging the
Speaker:dark side, just decided
Speaker:to embrace that.
Speaker:This is what I want to do.
Speaker:And it's fun.
Speaker:So tucking away the dark side into a
Speaker:little box.
Speaker:Yeah, totally. I'm just like, This
Speaker:is 100%
Speaker:how I want to live life.
Speaker:I want to live life to the fullest.
Speaker:There is no dark side.
Speaker:Let's just go.
Speaker:And so maybe another thing I need to
Speaker:explore and maybe open
Speaker:up that box.
Speaker:And I think there's also there are
Speaker:definitely ways to be more balanced.
Speaker:Like if I look at instead
Speaker:of the fact that I'm doing too much
Speaker:and might possibly be burnt out is
Speaker:within a business
Speaker:context driving
Speaker:the team too hard.
Speaker:Or sometimes I'll have a vision
Speaker:and I'll share the vision and then
Speaker:people take me
Speaker:literally.
Speaker:And then it sounds like an
Speaker:impossible thing to achieve
Speaker:and they don't really understand how
Speaker:to get started.
Speaker:Whereas I'm like, No, no, no.
Speaker:I can't even think of an example I
Speaker:wish I could, which would make it
Speaker:better. But like, I don't mean
Speaker:we need a crystal palace,
Speaker:I just need a box
Speaker:with some windows and we'll
Speaker:get to the Crystal Palace.
Speaker:But let's do the box with windows
Speaker:first. And I was like,
Speaker:because sometimes I'll have
Speaker:a vision in mind and it just gets
Speaker:everybody tangled up.
Speaker:And then they go in like, way over
Speaker:Architect What I'm talking about, as
Speaker:I've learned to try and break down
Speaker:the vision into very small,
Speaker:achievable steps.
Speaker:But sometimes I don't do that.
Speaker:And then the other one is because I
Speaker:have this ideal that we're working
Speaker:towards and I have quite
Speaker:a high standards, particularly
Speaker:for like slides
Speaker:and clarity of thought that
Speaker:often I demand 100%
Speaker:and forget the 8020 rule.
Speaker:And so I am trying to introduce more
Speaker:of an 8020 rule for myself and
Speaker:everyone else of like, what is
Speaker:the 20% that's going to make the
Speaker:biggest difference and not do the
Speaker:100% like and
Speaker:which is a big departure because I'm
Speaker:not even saying like, let's do 80%.
Speaker:I'm saying let's do 20%, which is
Speaker:hard for me to get around
Speaker:because I want it to be perfect.
Speaker:But actually it's very true.
Speaker:So number four is the last one.
Speaker:This is the magician.
Speaker:Whoa! This is the person that
Speaker:envisions and executes
Speaker:transformative strategies to make
Speaker:the company a leader in innovation.
Speaker:So this kind of sounds like your
Speaker:what you just talked about.
Speaker:Actually, I think a little bit.
Speaker:Yeah. I think Okay, so I've these
Speaker:two and these are my archetypes.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:What's the shadow side on this
Speaker:one?
Speaker:So the shadow side is idealism
Speaker:and lack of grounding way.
Speaker:I just talked about that.
Speaker:I like what
Speaker:my Crystal Palace said.
Speaker:How were you going to get there?
Speaker:Yeah, actually, I think that you're
Speaker:exactly right. So let me let let me
Speaker:read the two details here, though,
Speaker:see if this resonates.
Speaker:So overhauling systems or processes
Speaker:too frequently, causing disruption
Speaker:and confusion and neglecting
Speaker:routine operations or details that
Speaker:sustain the business.
Speaker:I think we've talked about this
Speaker:before, this idea of
Speaker:there being three archetypes of
Speaker:the way people think.
Speaker:This is come from a friend who
Speaker:worked at Bridgewater and this is
Speaker:why Bridgewater have structured
Speaker:their business.
Speaker:There are operators who deal with
Speaker:the day to day and the firefighting
Speaker:and the turning of the handle.
Speaker:And then you have the
Speaker:architects who
Speaker:build out.
Speaker:The vision and the operational
Speaker:strategy, and they're thinking
Speaker:from six months to 18, two years
Speaker:out. And then you have the
Speaker:strategists who are like two, three
Speaker:years to ten years out.
Speaker:What's the big vision?
Speaker:Where are we going?
Speaker:And the chessboard that I can't
Speaker:even see.
Speaker:And it's around creating
Speaker:a team that has all of those
Speaker:attributes.
Speaker:And so I'm very much the architect,
Speaker:and I can be the perfect architect
Speaker:and forget about the day to day
Speaker:stuff. So I make sure that I hire
Speaker:in people who love the day to day.
Speaker:And then I make sure I partner with
Speaker:somebody who has that massive vision
Speaker:rather than trying to be all things
Speaker:at all times.
Speaker:I'm never going to love
Speaker:grinding away on
Speaker:the same information over and over
Speaker:again.
Speaker:So what? Do we park it here and get
Speaker:on to our conversation with
Speaker:Stephanie Knowles for part two.
Speaker:And the shadow side of
Speaker:our strengths.
Speaker:The ones that tend to come up quite
Speaker:a lot are caregiver
Speaker:apps.
Speaker:Sage The Wisdom
Speaker:Heroes.
Speaker:So Sage caregiver
Speaker:hero, which I think is like
Speaker:the Challenger bravely
Speaker:and magician, which
Speaker:is the transforming one, which
Speaker:you can again you can understand
Speaker:because a lot of CEOs end up being
Speaker:change and transformation leaders.
Speaker:So the magician who sort of
Speaker:does things as if by magic, often
Speaker:in the background, people don't see
Speaker:it and then things come to fruition.
Speaker:We all have a shadow
Speaker:side, like a union, shadow side
Speaker:to ourselves.
Speaker:And I watched Inside
Speaker:Out too, with one of my teenage
Speaker:sons, my younger teenage son,
Speaker:yesterday.
Speaker:And the entire lesson was
Speaker:about accepting
Speaker:the entirety of who we are, the good
Speaker:with the bad, the shadow
Speaker:self with the
Speaker:light self.
Speaker:I just love inside out like the
Speaker:first one. The second one maybe
Speaker:wasn't as compelling a story, but it
Speaker:was an absolutely amazing
Speaker:lesson to learn and one that I think
Speaker:any teenager capable of doing that
Speaker:is amazing.
Speaker:I think it's great that 45 to be
Speaker:able to embrace any of my dark side
Speaker:openly.
Speaker:And so I just thought I'd be
Speaker:interested davinia to highlight
Speaker:areas that are like
Speaker:tend to be fundamental
Speaker:weaknesses of,
Speaker:of CEOs or the dark
Speaker:side to what we view as our
Speaker:strengths. Because it's a cliche,
Speaker:but it's true that every strength
Speaker:comes with a weakness.
Speaker:And I have a feeling that it relates
Speaker:a lot to servant
Speaker:leadership, which is difficult,
Speaker:isn't it? Because servant
Speaker:leadership, in one way I feel like
Speaker:is a blessing and a curse,
Speaker:which is so if you are in service
Speaker:of others all the time, which CEOs
Speaker:generally tend to be what
Speaker:I find in upcoming CEOs when I'm
Speaker:coaching them particularly, is
Speaker:to use John Geary's phrase, there's
Speaker:something about teaching them to be
Speaker:propositional or inviting
Speaker:them to be propositional, which
Speaker:is that they sometimes struggle to
Speaker:have the confidence and
Speaker:ego sometimes because they're
Speaker:incredibly humble, usually
Speaker:personalities, to be
Speaker:really forthright and have a solid
Speaker:opinion, which I think can
Speaker:be enormously challenging.
Speaker:When you look at some of these gaps,
Speaker:for example, the external
Speaker:spokesperson piece, but that's also
Speaker:sometimes at board level, as we were
Speaker:talking about last time.
Speaker:And sometimes I think it can be
Speaker:because you're expected to be
Speaker:in service often, and there's
Speaker:something about how you then frame
Speaker:that in your own mind as to whether
Speaker:therefore you're allowed
Speaker:to have your own opinion
Speaker:about where the business is going,
Speaker:how it's being run, the strategy,
Speaker:all of these other things versus
Speaker:accepting what you're given in terms
Speaker:of I get given
Speaker:a strategy and then I have to
Speaker:execute against it.
Speaker:I think about like the role of
Speaker:a c O
Speaker:and that relationship
Speaker:with a CEO
Speaker:versus a relationship with the rest
Speaker:of the business. And how
Speaker:much is servant leadership for the
Speaker:rest of the business versus almost
Speaker:like a de facto servant leadership
Speaker:for the CEO?
Speaker:And how do you have a challenging
Speaker:relationship with your CEO
Speaker:that's also effective?
Speaker:I mean, maybe it's just my own
Speaker:thing, but I seem to be
Speaker:I'm better at being disagreeable,
Speaker:stating my position, having a
Speaker:proposition throughout the rest
Speaker:of the business.
Speaker:And it's the relationship with the
Speaker:CEO that I can often find
Speaker:more challenging where I
Speaker:have either it's blatantly wrong
Speaker:and I will say something
Speaker:or it makes enough sense
Speaker:that I'll just go and execute and
Speaker:kind of like not be bothered to
Speaker:think I don't know what that
Speaker:archetype is. The lazy archetype
Speaker:like that lazy thinking archetype.
Speaker:Does that make sense? Does that is
Speaker:that something you've ever dealt
Speaker:with?
Speaker:100%? And I think that this back
Speaker:to this sort of being propositional
Speaker:thing doesn't always have to be
Speaker:because you don't have the confidence.
Speaker:It could also be because you're
Speaker:following what you have
Speaker:been instructed to do and
Speaker:to all intents purposes feels like
Speaker:it's not a hill you want to dial and
Speaker:say, off you go, until
Speaker:you realize actually in practice
Speaker:that that doesn't necessarily
Speaker:work the way that anyone had
Speaker:thought it would.
Speaker:But, you know, that's what came into
Speaker:my head as well, the relationship
Speaker:with the CEO, because I also find
Speaker:that in lots of instances when I'm
Speaker:working with CEOs, when I'm
Speaker:working with CEOs, and back to sort
Speaker:of the first episode we ever did,
Speaker:this thing about relationship is
Speaker:huge, right?
Speaker:As in when I'm
Speaker:doing chemistry work with CEOs
Speaker:who I want to work with that
Speaker:one of the first questions I ask
Speaker:is, how's the relationship with the
Speaker:CEO? Let's talk about that for a
Speaker:bit, because generally speaking, if
Speaker:it's bad, it's just not going to
Speaker:work, right? And also, then I
Speaker:question whether coaching was a good
Speaker:idea because it's like if we're
Speaker:going to just spend all of our time
Speaker:talking about your relationship with
Speaker:your family because it's
Speaker:dysfunctional, then I don't think
Speaker:this is a good idea.
Speaker:That's not to say that all of these
Speaker:relationships are rosy,
Speaker:remembering that most of those
Speaker:relationships, quasi relationships,
Speaker:are on some form of spectrum.
Speaker:I think more often than not, when
Speaker:you. You hear about CEOs looking for
Speaker:CEOs, one of the first things they
Speaker:say is partner,
Speaker:including sparring partner.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:So somebody I can bounce ideas off,
Speaker:somebody who can tell me when they
Speaker:think I've gone a bit sort of off
Speaker:piste somewhere.
Speaker:And again, back to sort of the hero
Speaker:or the challenger. How do you do
Speaker:that whilst having a good
Speaker:relationship with them?
Speaker:And in a way that's more as I really
Speaker:like the phrase trusted advisor
Speaker:so that they see that you can
Speaker:in some ways sometimes give your
Speaker:opinion, sometimes to the
Speaker:coach and ask questions and be
Speaker:curious.
Speaker:All of that then within that
Speaker:relationship, but not always
Speaker:agreeing with them. And sometimes
Speaker:that's okay too is I don't
Speaker:necessarily agree with what, you
Speaker:know, the direction you're taking
Speaker:here.
Speaker:Some say that I won't do it.
Speaker:I'll do as I am bid, but I'm
Speaker:not entirely sold
Speaker:at this point. We'll see.
Speaker:So those are not my challenges.
Speaker:My challenge is taking the time
Speaker:to have an opinion because
Speaker:I think there's just so much going
Speaker:on.
Speaker:And also, I love change
Speaker:and I love doing things
Speaker:and I kind of like, what's the worst
Speaker:that could happen? We can always
Speaker:back out.
Speaker:So I'm like, That sounds like fun.
Speaker:I'll go for it.
Speaker:And I don't always have that circuit
Speaker:breaker of actually let
Speaker:me have a bit more of the five.
Speaker:The analysts. Let me think this
Speaker:through because I'm like, That's not
Speaker:fun. Let's just go
Speaker:and I can, you
Speaker:know, like completely
Speaker:pivot on our product and sell
Speaker:something brand new that we know
Speaker:nothing about because, like, that
Speaker:sounds like really an interesting
Speaker:project.
Speaker:And so for me, it's taking
Speaker:the time to actually
Speaker:decide whether or not it's a good
Speaker:idea and then being the sparring
Speaker:partner. So I really only do that
Speaker:when it's like just hits me between
Speaker:the eyes. That is like a really bad
Speaker:idea.
Speaker:So, but anything short of a
Speaker:really bad idea, I'm game.
Speaker:And I suppose it's one of those
Speaker:characteristics of buys for action,
Speaker:which is a good quality for the most
Speaker:part. But I think to your point
Speaker:out of any I think this trusted
Speaker:advisor I think is absolutely
Speaker:spot on, which is you won't have a
Speaker:relationship with the co founder
Speaker:where there is inherent trust.
Speaker:They lean on you for thoughts and
Speaker:you're in that position where
Speaker:they're whatever they're coming up
Speaker:with, they feel comfortable to
Speaker:bounce those ideas off of you and
Speaker:it gives you an opportunity at that
Speaker:point to provide thoughts back
Speaker:to them in kind of an innocuous way
Speaker:in terms of what your view is
Speaker:on that particular issue or maybe a
Speaker:broader set of issues or what have
Speaker:you. But if you're in that space as
Speaker:the trusted advisor, that is a
Speaker:key and wonderful place to be.
Speaker:And I think this archetype around
Speaker:the Sage, I think it dovetails
Speaker:directly into it, which is that sage
Speaker:quality very much is exactly
Speaker:this, which is you're the trusted
Speaker:advisor to the CEO or you're the
Speaker:trusted advisor to the leadership
Speaker:team or the trusted advisor across
Speaker:the business.
Speaker:That to me is like a senior CMO
Speaker:that really is demonstrated to the
Speaker:organization.
Speaker:This person that backstops
Speaker:everything in a very sensible,
Speaker:rational, helpful way.
Speaker:So this thing around, lots
Speaker:of senior CEOs that I work with have
Speaker:done some form of coaching
Speaker:qualification and they're
Speaker:not necessarily going to go off and
Speaker:be coaches, lots of them.
Speaker:They can stay as CEOs because that's
Speaker:what they love.
Speaker:However, that is
Speaker:because it's a skill that they
Speaker:really want to employ in the
Speaker:business, not just with the people
Speaker:that work with them, but with the
Speaker:CEO as well.
Speaker:So I think that's super interesting
Speaker:is how you then how you develop
Speaker:some of this skill set.
Speaker:Bethany had a question for you
Speaker:because I have a feeling there's a
Speaker:shadow in here, which is I
Speaker:bump into this quite a lot with
Speaker:CEOs. The shadow sometimes
Speaker:is that they're actually ruminates
Speaker:and it might not be you, but it's
Speaker:kind of an interesting one.
Speaker:As we talk about the shadow side,
Speaker:they're much better when they take
Speaker:things away and think about them and
Speaker:then come back again versus, you
Speaker:know, you get lots of CEOs who kind
Speaker:of really think on their feet and
Speaker:can sort of hear something,
Speaker:data, etc.
Speaker:Just something spits something back
Speaker:out again. It's entirely reasonable,
Speaker:rational.
Speaker:Whereas lots of CEOs,
Speaker:again, they like to ingest
Speaker:information, get other data points,
Speaker:so corral everything together
Speaker:and figure out themselves and then
Speaker:come back again.
Speaker:And also, they then need to give
Speaker:themselves the time to do that,
Speaker:right?
Speaker:Brandon's definitely ruminating,
Speaker:like in terms of working together on
Speaker:the podcast.
Speaker:Brandon prepares.
Speaker:He has questions, he thinks about
Speaker:the intro.
Speaker:He finds themes that
Speaker:would kill me. I just rock up and
Speaker:whatever happens, happens.
Speaker:I think you're the opposite of the
Speaker:ruminate. Ah, I think you are the
Speaker:bias for action in real time.
Speaker:And I think that quality I don't see
Speaker:that a lot of people and I think
Speaker:this is probably one of the reasons
Speaker:or the prime reason why I've been
Speaker:massively successful.
Speaker:I would say.
Speaker:Yeah, so we've discovered somebody
Speaker:else's shadow side on that one.
Speaker:I do like gathering information, but
Speaker:I don't overly gather and I actually
Speaker:prefer gathering information from
Speaker:conversations with people than
Speaker:through data analysis
Speaker:or sitting with a spreadsheet for a
Speaker:long time. I love building a
Speaker:spreadsheet. One of my favorite
Speaker:things like if I have to do a
Speaker:spreadsheet, I save it to the end
Speaker:as my dessert, my
Speaker:special treat,.
Speaker:When I'm also remove data,
Speaker:which. Brandon you can probably tell
Speaker:because I also have a preparer.
Speaker:I hear things and then I'm like
Speaker:it. Go back, check that.
Speaker:And I kind of get. Go away and
Speaker:talk to people and have a look at
Speaker:things or reads and stuff, then come
Speaker:back again.
Speaker:Which was always interesting for me
Speaker:because then in board situations
Speaker:I'm very quiet because I'm sort of
Speaker:taking it and trying to figure out
Speaker:what do I actually think?
Speaker:And as I said, lots of CEOs that
Speaker:I've worked with are also ruminates
Speaker:and trying to see that not as that
Speaker:it doesn't have to necessarily be
Speaker:a weakness or gaffe.
Speaker:When we talk about being expert,
Speaker:stern or spokesperson, sometimes
Speaker:CEOs then shy away from that because
Speaker:they're like, well, I'm not very
Speaker:this is not my strength versus
Speaker:I feel like I and I'm not one
Speaker:of those people. I'm like a
Speaker:sufferer. I'll be like, I can
Speaker:do this. I will do this.
Speaker:I just keep throwing myself at it in
Speaker:some kind of form of self-love
Speaker:that I then learned to speak in
Speaker:public because I kept doing it.
Speaker:But actually it taught me to think
Speaker:more on my feet because if you go
Speaker:into panels and stuff, you're you
Speaker:don't know what you're going to get lost
Speaker:to you and you then have to be a bit
Speaker:more kind of like, right, I've got
Speaker:to sort of have a point of view very
Speaker:quickly. I've got to say something
Speaker:interesting or at least try to
Speaker:at this point in time so that
Speaker:you help me is like not shying away
Speaker:from public speaking.
Speaker:I was like, Right, if I get public
Speaker:speaking requests, I'm going
Speaker:to be on panels, definitely Q&A
Speaker:style.
Speaker:So if a bit more kind of statement
Speaker:was coming.
Speaker:So I definitely recommend that to.
Speaker:I could do a panel or a Q&A
Speaker:any day of the week having to do a
Speaker:proper talk.
Speaker:I hate because I have to think about
Speaker:it. I have to have topics.
Speaker:It has to have a flow
Speaker:that gives me all kinds of stress
Speaker:versus a Q&A or a panel.
Speaker:And I find that I actually end up
Speaker:with better ideas and insights
Speaker:I hadn't come up with yet
Speaker:because I'm speaking off the cuff.
Speaker:Going back to something that you
Speaker:said that I wanted to get into
Speaker:was that you'll hear something
Speaker:and then you'll store it for later
Speaker:to investigate.
Speaker:Whereas I hear something
Speaker:and I immediately investigate.
Speaker:Then why don't you investigate
Speaker:when you first hear it?
Speaker:I quite often find that
Speaker:there are things stored in my head
Speaker:somewhere that as it bubbles
Speaker:away still in there, it kind of
Speaker:works its way around.
Speaker:Something will occur to me.
Speaker:Or I'll think about other examples
Speaker:where I might have seen this before,
Speaker:or I remember an article I
Speaker:once read.
Speaker:So actually, what happens in my
Speaker:brain, my ruminating brain,
Speaker:is that my brain keeps working
Speaker:on it. And so I find that then
Speaker:it kind of takes me down an avenue
Speaker:to then kind of go and figure
Speaker:something out, or I'll be like, Who?
Speaker:Remember that person?
Speaker:Actually, I kind of chat with them
Speaker:and I sort of come back with
Speaker:a bit more of a fully formed
Speaker:opinion. So to say that I would
Speaker:these days, I mean, now that I'm a
Speaker:self a bit longer in the tooth, I
Speaker:have a tendency to I'll
Speaker:share an opinion upfront.
Speaker:However, I'm like, this is an
Speaker:unqualified opinion at this point,
Speaker:but my gut tells me this.
Speaker:I may go away, sleep on it,
Speaker:have a shower, think about it, and
Speaker:then come back with something
Speaker:slightly different.
Speaker:But generally speaking, I go away
Speaker:and other things occur to me just
Speaker:when my particular brain works.
Speaker:And it's not to say when I was
Speaker:operating slightly different,
Speaker:which is that I had,
Speaker:you know, obviously there was still
Speaker:peace time, but there was also quite
Speaker:a lot of war time and that be crisis
Speaker:situations that would bubble up.
Speaker:And then of course you can't do
Speaker:that. So like I need to have an
Speaker:opinion right now and I need to get
Speaker:this thing and I would of course
Speaker:go do that.
Speaker:And then you learn by making
Speaker:mistakes and all of that kind of
Speaker:good stuff.
Speaker:However, when I have the time,
Speaker:I'd rather take the time
Speaker:because I know my brain works better
Speaker:on something over a period of time.
Speaker:I'm okay with that.
Speaker:I'm a remedy to be quite open about
Speaker:it. I may go When something
Speaker:else may come to me, I'll come back.
Speaker:So here's a question for
Speaker:the both of you, which is this
Speaker:caregiver role.
Speaker:So he said most CEOs come from
Speaker:this background or have this
Speaker:archetype within them.
Speaker:I'm curious if you can tell us more
Speaker:about why that's the case, why
Speaker:there's so many CEOs that are
Speaker:phenomenal caregivers.
Speaker:I have a feeling that this is to do
Speaker:with that lovely
Speaker:living in the gray peace
Speaker:in organizations, right?
Speaker:So you end up as a CEO
Speaker:being the person that is a
Speaker:commercial business person who's
Speaker:trying to think, right, what's the
Speaker:business need? What does it not need
Speaker:at this point in time?
Speaker:And also being a person who
Speaker:loves and cares for the team,
Speaker:because again, as a caregiver
Speaker:myself, it felt
Speaker:to me when I was in organizations,
Speaker:even the big ones, that people in
Speaker:teams that weren't mine
Speaker:felt like my people.
Speaker:Like actually the whole company is
Speaker:my team because I sort of
Speaker:work on the whole company.
Speaker:So I sort of worked across
Speaker:everything. So I then mentor
Speaker:people in different teams and all
Speaker:that sort of good stuff as well.
Speaker:But that living in the gray I think
Speaker:is very difficult sometimes
Speaker:for a founder CEO
Speaker:to do.
Speaker:And what I mean by that is and
Speaker:again, sometimes founder CEOs
Speaker:I think can be a bit more business
Speaker:commercial and a bit cutthroat
Speaker:sometimes about people, honestly,
Speaker:which sometimes they need to be
Speaker:right. If you want to have a
Speaker:very highly performant organization,
Speaker:you have to be very mindful
Speaker:of performance management, giving
Speaker:people feedback, all of this other
Speaker:stuff.
Speaker:And I.
Speaker:Feel like sometimes
Speaker:because also they're the founder in
Speaker:this whole piece around founder
Speaker:week, I mean, where
Speaker:they kind of reveal it and
Speaker:people sort of treat them at a
Speaker:distance because it's like, well,
Speaker:it's the founder, etc., etc..
Speaker:They may be one step away from
Speaker:people which allows them to have a
Speaker:bit more substantive, objective
Speaker:judgment about them, but sometimes
Speaker:leads them down the path of not
Speaker:really completely understanding
Speaker:or knowing those people as well as
Speaker:they could.
Speaker:I felt the same way quite often.
Speaker:Then place the other path that
Speaker:where they do know people
Speaker:incredibly well if they're a
Speaker:caregiver and they do understand
Speaker:who these people are.
Speaker:So I have a feeling that's where
Speaker:this comes from, that it's
Speaker:sort of a yin and yang.
Speaker:And again, I'm not saying that
Speaker:founder CEOs own this like
Speaker:they and they're not nice.
Speaker:Their teams are not saying that at
Speaker:all. But I think delicate balance
Speaker:between building a highly
Speaker:performing organization and
Speaker:focusing on performance management
Speaker:and how you've gotten the business
Speaker:and who you need and who you don't
Speaker:need and roles you need and all
Speaker:of that. This kind of good stuff
Speaker:when organizations become too
Speaker:bloated and all that.
Speaker:But I have a feeling that the CEO
Speaker:sometimes is a foil to that
Speaker:place. The other side of it.
Speaker:Yeah, I'm not a caregiver.
Speaker:Bethany doubles down on that.
Speaker:The cutthroat.
Speaker:I think because of I'm an introvert,
Speaker:I can have some very deep
Speaker:relationships with people,
Speaker:but it doesn't sway my opinion
Speaker:or my work relationship
Speaker:with them. Like even if I have a
Speaker:very deep relationship, know about
Speaker:them. If they're underperforming, I
Speaker:will tell them if they need to leave
Speaker:the organization, I
Speaker:will have them leave the organization,
Speaker:but it's separate to my relationship
Speaker:with them.
Speaker:But I do think that's caregiving
Speaker:and that's my point.
Speaker:But again, I don't want to offend
Speaker:founder CEOs, but actually I've
Speaker:worked with a lot
Speaker:in a coaching capacity
Speaker:that we didn't.
Speaker:Yeah, I would give you that.
Speaker:So actually then as the CEO,
Speaker:when I talk about caregiving, I'm
Speaker:more about that.
Speaker:But you know, these people, you like
Speaker:them, you're friendly towards them.
Speaker:You may know a bit about sort of
Speaker:their family and all of this good
Speaker:stuff. And yet you will also
Speaker:be the person who will give them
Speaker:some feedback because it's kind and
Speaker:it's a gift.
Speaker:That's when I hear caregiving in CEO
Speaker:world is actually the marriage of
Speaker:the two is not being
Speaker:overly soft
Speaker:is like being empathetic but also
Speaker:holding the candle around being
Speaker:performant.
Speaker:I think also for me, I
Speaker:don't have a lot of relationships.
Speaker:And so I guess I was thinking of a
Speaker:caregiver as somebody that has a lot
Speaker:of relationships across the
Speaker:business, maybe because of my
Speaker:introversion or just time.
Speaker:Like I'll have limited deep
Speaker:relationships and then almost
Speaker:no relationship with everybody else.
Speaker:And I just go out of my way to have
Speaker:relationships.
Speaker:Like I feel as though my leadership
Speaker:style for the most part,
Speaker:does not depend on individual
Speaker:relationships, and
Speaker:those just happen because
Speaker:of a byproduct of working with
Speaker:people or something has meant that
Speaker:our paths have crossed in a more
Speaker:meaningful way.
Speaker:Is there a number of relationships
Speaker:as part of the caregiving element?
Speaker:If you think about it a slightly
Speaker:different way, some characterized it
Speaker:really nicely for me the other day
Speaker:when they were talking about
Speaker:sometimes dependent on
Speaker:your personality.
Speaker:You're either somebody who networks
Speaker:for need because you want you
Speaker:want need to do something and
Speaker:therefore you go and
Speaker:sort of create relationships in
Speaker:order to do that, or you do it
Speaker:in of itself, as in
Speaker:these people in front of you and
Speaker:you're curious about them and you
Speaker:want to sort of learn a bit about
Speaker:them and you may never work with
Speaker:them or do something with them
Speaker:because of how far away in the
Speaker:organization they are to you.
Speaker:It doesn't matter anyway.
Speaker:You're curious enough that you would
Speaker:go and seek them out and figure out
Speaker:who they are.
Speaker:And I think that's kind of that's a
Speaker:good characterization because it's
Speaker:like you're more likely,
Speaker:therefore, to engage in
Speaker:social situations for no
Speaker:purpose.
Speaker:So no sort of work related
Speaker:or task related purpose,
Speaker:you're more likely to be there
Speaker:to be around.
Speaker:And again, you know, it's
Speaker:interesting because I would say that
Speaker:I'm I'm actually I'm also
Speaker:an introvert and I have a few
Speaker:deep relationships,
Speaker:but I'm also incredibly people
Speaker:curious.
Speaker:So I love talking to new people,
Speaker:but it takes me a lot of energy to
Speaker:do that if I don't know them.
Speaker:And it's a learned skill over time.
Speaker:Similarly, I feel like, you know, if
Speaker:we think about caregiving as having
Speaker:these two sides of this coin, when
Speaker:I was younger in my career, I look
Speaker:younger in my career, I feel like I
Speaker:was very soft indeed.
Speaker:So I'd more of the empathy side,
Speaker:less of the other side, until
Speaker:I sort of had a bit of a realization
Speaker:of like, this is helping
Speaker:people, but actually giving them
Speaker:feedback, making sure that they're
Speaker:very valid in the organization that
Speaker:they're performing, that it's
Speaker:helping them.
Speaker:I think what you said, Bethany, is
Speaker:right on point, which is this one
Speaker:too many leadership style, where you
Speaker:have a large organization and you
Speaker:have to project yourself or people
Speaker:understand who you are and
Speaker:get some feeling of empathy
Speaker:or connection or.
Speaker:Or residents or they understand
Speaker:who Bethany is, and therefore that
Speaker:means something to them.
Speaker:Thereby, the leadership overlay
Speaker:on top of that becomes much more
Speaker:powerful in a sense.
Speaker:I think you're very good at this
Speaker:because I think your ability to
Speaker:express vulnerability,
Speaker:openness, compassion, I
Speaker:think your ability to project that
Speaker:on a one to many basis, I almost
Speaker:guarantee you, serves you quite well
Speaker:in terms of creating connections
Speaker:with individuals, even if you don't
Speaker:realize it.
Speaker:Which happens most of the time.
Speaker:But I will be more might
Speaker:because there will always be people
Speaker:that see something in me that upsets
Speaker:them because it sees show something
Speaker:in them that they don't like.
Speaker:And I know that there's a probably
Speaker:a core of 20, 30%
Speaker:who don't get
Speaker:me like me, fear me,
Speaker:have whatever issues with me.
Speaker:But at this point I just don't care.
Speaker:Like I should care, but I don't care
Speaker:because I just don't have time for
Speaker:it. And it's a reflection of
Speaker:something that's going on in their
Speaker:own minds, not on mine.
Speaker:And I've set out my stall and I am
Speaker:who I am. And if you don't like me,
Speaker:then don't listen to me.
Speaker:Don't follow me.
Speaker:Don't stay at the company.
Speaker:There's plenty of space for people
Speaker:who do want to.
Speaker:Should you care?
Speaker:I don't know. Maybe I should care,
Speaker:but I don't think they see their
Speaker:light side. Dark side don't know.
Speaker:We are wired to try
Speaker:to figure out other people's
Speaker:behavior. Why are they doing that?
Speaker:What's going on?
Speaker:Why are they doing?
Speaker:And the other and we fundamentally
Speaker:just basically guess
Speaker:all the time.
Speaker:And also in lots of times,
Speaker:lots of people are not curious
Speaker:enough to ask what's going on for
Speaker:that other person.
Speaker:Because most times, as you say,
Speaker:Beth, the thing that you are
Speaker:receiving, it's got nothing to do
Speaker:with you. It's actually all to
Speaker:do with what's happening in their
Speaker:world and how they have that.
Speaker:Then the narrative they've created
Speaker:around it could be to do with you
Speaker:depending on how you act towards
Speaker:people. I'm not saying all behavior
Speaker:is acceptable by any means,
Speaker:but quite often it has nothing
Speaker:to do with you.
Speaker:It's closest to the person.
Speaker:So if everybody
Speaker:of our listeners can only take one
Speaker:thing away from today's
Speaker:conversation, what is it?
Speaker:Say I'm taking back to something
Speaker:that we said in the last episode of
Speaker:this that's come up again here,
Speaker:which is, So how
Speaker:do you firstly truly embrace the
Speaker:things that are you
Speaker:say all the things that are you
Speaker:in terms of your skills, but also in
Speaker:terms of your characteristics,
Speaker:personality, that sort of thing.
Speaker:How do you embrace that and use that
Speaker:and what you do?
Speaker:But also how do you
Speaker:acknowledge there may be shadows
Speaker:here, some of which you could do
Speaker:something about, some of which you
Speaker:can't and understand them?
Speaker:Because I think the more self-aware
Speaker:we are about some of these things,
Speaker:the better off will be as to be
Speaker:choice for about what we decide to
Speaker:do.
Speaker:And if some of the points here
Speaker:have resonated for you in terms
Speaker:of development points and could
Speaker:be some areas that you may want to
Speaker:work on know.
Speaker:And so take note of things.
Speaker:And work on with Davinia the SEO
Speaker:coach. Not that I'm just going to do
Speaker:the plug for you, so if you feel
Speaker:like you need to do some
Speaker:coaching work and any
Speaker:of this has sparked
Speaker:a curiosity, I highly recommend
Speaker:getting in touch with Davinia.
Speaker:Thank you once again Davinia for
Speaker:joining us on the operations room.
Speaker:If you like what you hear, please
Speaker:leave a comment or subscribe and we
Speaker:will see you next week.
