77. How does AI change the approach to professional development?
In this episode we discuss: How does AI change the approach to professional development? We are joined by Anna Tavis, Clinical Professor and Chair of the Human Capital Management Department at NYU’s School of Professional Studies.
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We chat about the following with Anna Tavis:
- If career growth is no longer about climbing the ladder, how should we redefine success in professional development?
- Are our current learning systems truly preparing people for real work, or are they just ticking boxes outside the flow of everyday tasks?
- Could AI-powered coaching finally make professional development as personalised and responsive as a sports coach with their athletes?
- What happens to the manager’s role when AI takes over much of the supervision—does it free them to become genuine mentors?
- How do we ensure AI-driven development tools enhance equity and well-being, rather than deepen existing gaps?
References
- linkedin.com/in/annatavis
- https://www.sps.nyu.edu/homepage/academics/divisions-and-departments/division-of-programs-in-business/human-capital-management/coaching-and-technology-summit.html
- https://www.amazon.com/Humans-Work-Practice-Creating-Workplace/dp/1398604232
- https://www.amazon.com/Digital-Coaching-Revolution-Employee-Development/dp/1398612510
Biography
Dr. Anna Tavis is Clinical Professor and Chair of the Human Capital Management Department at NYU’s School of Professional Studies. Recognised on the Thinkers50 Radar (2020) and among the Top 100 Global Influencers in People Analytics (2023, 2024), she co-authored Humans at Work (2022) and The Digital Coaching Revolution (2024).
Her global career spans business, consulting, and academia, including senior roles at Motorola, Nokia, United Technologies, and AIG Investments, as well as faculty positions at Columbia University, Williams College, and Fairfield University.
Her Harvard Business Review articles, “HR Goes Agile” and “The Performance Management Revolution,” co-authored with Dr. Peter Cappelli, have been featured in HBR’s Must Reads, Definitive Management Ideas of the Year, and Agile: The Insights You Need.
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Summary
00:13:29 – Defining professional development
00:15:21 – Why traditional tools fall short
00:18:30 – AI-driven coaching in action
00:25:04 – Rethinking career growth
00:30:24 – Responsible AI rollout
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Transcript
Hello and welcome to another episode
Speaker:of the operations room a podcast for
Speaker:COOs. I am Brandon And then sing a,
Speaker:I am joined by Effy D'Air.
Speaker:That's like the first time you've
Speaker:ever messed up on that one.
Speaker:Apparently, I've lost it.
Speaker:How is life?
Speaker:So I listened to a different
Speaker:podcast. I know heresy, but you
Speaker:know, I listened to a
Speaker:sex and relationships podcast
Speaker:called.
Speaker:Savage Love by Dan Savage.
Speaker:I've ever mentioned him before.
Speaker:You have used to be the columnist
Speaker:for the Vancouver Sun the newspaper
Speaker:back in Vancouver
Speaker:Well, he actually was the columnist
Speaker:for the
Speaker:Seattle stranger.
Speaker:And then it was syndicated
Speaker:in all kinds of other places, so it
Speaker:must have been in yours.
Speaker:It was in the Albuquerque alibi, but
Speaker:I discovered originally the village
Speaker:voice. And so I've been a damn
Speaker:savage fan for years now as a
Speaker:podcast. And I listen.
Speaker:Nearly weekly.
Speaker:And he always has the same
Speaker:segments, and he always says the
Speaker:same thing.
Speaker:And when you say the same things,
Speaker:I'm like, oh, our listener's gonna
Speaker:find this weird or boring or
Speaker:whatever, but they're somehow like.
Speaker:Quite soothing.
Speaker:To hear it the same way every time.
Speaker:And then every so often he'll drop a
Speaker:word.
Speaker:He hasn't said it properly, rather
Speaker:than, oh, look, it's different.
Speaker:Puts our listeners into the groove
Speaker:from the outset.
Speaker:From the outset and then also the
Speaker:ending and the rap, you know, that I
Speaker:think people actually like to hear
Speaker:people being me and therefore I'm
Speaker:extrapolating more than just me.
Speaker:Like to hear the same thing multiple
Speaker:times. And also every saw
Speaker:a film when he...
Speaker:Doesn't say the exact same words.
Speaker:I go, oh, it isn't pre-recorded,
Speaker:because sometimes it's exactly the
Speaker:same. So anyhow, I'm going on
Speaker:holiday very soon.
Speaker:Nine working days away.
Speaker:Oh, I didn't know this.
Speaker:Really, fabulous. Where are you
Speaker:going?
Speaker:I'm good to help her.
Speaker:Sing family, sing friends.
Speaker:Recharging, seeing the sun, seeing
Speaker:some nice sunsets, I miss sunset so
Speaker:much. I miss sunsets in the sky.
Speaker:The desert and it's also very high
Speaker:and like I just feel like I can
Speaker:breathe. Have you been to
Speaker:Albuquerque?
Speaker:No, no, I haven't.
Speaker:Why would I go to Albuquerque?
Speaker:For a Breaking Bad tour?
Speaker:Does that, do they have a Breaking
Speaker:Bad Tour?
Speaker:They used to, I don't know if they
Speaker:still do, but Albuquerque definitely
Speaker:cashed in on Breaking Bad.
Speaker:It was filmed there, so.
Speaker:You can go to all of the places.
Speaker:The city itself is not beautiful.
Speaker:It's like.
Speaker:A very spread out.
Speaker:Southwestern or western city.
Speaker:Like all of them, loads of strip
Speaker:malls.
Speaker:Loads of individual houses.
Speaker:Have to drive, not a lot of charm,
Speaker:but they're pockets that are quite
Speaker:nice. And there's like a
Speaker:arts community, a lot a
Speaker:creativity.
Speaker:It's a real mixing
Speaker:pot of, I think New Mexico
Speaker:has highest per capita
Speaker:number of PhDs.
Speaker:In America.
Speaker:Well, because we have a lot of
Speaker:national labs, we have a lot PhDs
Speaker:working on.
Speaker:Ways to kill people efficiently.
Speaker:Not anymore with all the layoffs,
Speaker:but yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker:Well, this is true, but prior to
Speaker:that. It's the home of
Speaker:the nuclear programs for.
Speaker:America.
Speaker:Los Alamos.
Speaker:Sandhya national lab.
Speaker:So we have that combined with
Speaker:like a massive rich poor gap.
Speaker:And the smartest thrown in.
Speaker:Kind of like East London.
Speaker:Okay, all right.
Speaker:So the rich and poor divide, a lot
Speaker:of academics, and
Speaker:a dash of sprinkling of creativity
Speaker:artists, artisans.
Speaker:And then also like weird
Speaker:spirituality.
Speaker:This is like for me, an epitome of
Speaker:New Mexico.
Speaker:We tend to fly into Denver,
Speaker:and that's what we're doing this time,
Speaker:and then drive to Albuquerque.
Speaker:It's just a lot cheaper, but then we
Speaker:do some skiing on the way back, hang
Speaker:out in Denver a bit, see some
Speaker:friends. And so we were driving
Speaker:down and.
Speaker:Just outside of Santa Fe, there's
Speaker:another town called Las Vegas,
Speaker:New Mexico.
Speaker:Which is obviously not as famous
Speaker:as its sister.
Speaker:Las Vegas, Nevada.
Speaker:And we ended up eating there in
Speaker:this little Mexican restaurant,
Speaker:all run by.
Speaker:60 and 70 year olds.
Speaker:Hispanic women.
Speaker:Like, proper TIAs.
Speaker:I went to the bathroom, came out.
Speaker:And there were like beads
Speaker:everywhere. This woman's trying to
Speaker:pick them all up and they were.
Speaker:Beads from her bracelet that
Speaker:somebody from South Africa had given
Speaker:her. To bring good luck and
Speaker:fix.
Speaker:Pains and ailments.
Speaker:Because this is New Mexico.
Speaker:So you have like.
Speaker:A little bit of South Africa thrown
Speaker:in with some magic beads.
Speaker:In a place where everybody's pretty
Speaker:much speaking Spanish while cooking.
Speaker:The only Mexican food.
Speaker:It's just a different place.
Speaker:You know how every state in America
Speaker:is its own?
Speaker:Country. And it's a really relaxed.
Speaker:Kind of mystic vibe with.
Speaker:A lot of natural beauty.
Speaker:So I'm looking forward to going
Speaker:home, recharging spiritually.
Speaker:I might pick up some.
Speaker:Beads.
Speaker:I'm going on vacation too, as well,
Speaker:in the summer time, which is not
Speaker:anytime soon.
Speaker:I've actually assigned my wife the
Speaker:task of trying to find us where we
Speaker:should be going. So she is going to
Speaker:come back to me with her
Speaker:recommendations on the Mensinga.
Speaker:Summertime vacation so we'll see
Speaker:what I'll give you an update when I
Speaker:when I know
Speaker:You don't have any.
Speaker:A country yet.
Speaker:So the Turkey thing last year worked
Speaker:out well. It was kind of a tier
Speaker:three pricing for a tier one
Speaker:experience, I would say.
Speaker:So it's a.
Speaker:All-inclusive family.
Speaker:Beach.
Speaker:Pools, water slides, all these kind
Speaker:of requirements for the kids, the
Speaker:kids club and all that jazz.
Speaker:So I suspect we'll be doing
Speaker:something similar to that.
Speaker:With young children, I never wanted
Speaker:to do an all-inclusive.
Speaker:I didn't understand the point of it.
Speaker:I was a bit snobby about it.
Speaker:Then I did an all inclusive with
Speaker:young kids and I was like, this is
Speaker:amazing.
Speaker:And also, you could just properly
Speaker:relax, because...
Speaker:Of the buffet.
Speaker:The kids can look at the food,
Speaker:choose the three grapes they're
Speaker:willing to eat, and you just don't
Speaker:have to deal with either trying to
Speaker:cook stuff or the...
Speaker:Hassle of a restaurant where they
Speaker:just don't want to eat anything.
Speaker:I don't know. That's my children.
Speaker:My children were unbelievably picky
Speaker:and it was really stressful.
Speaker:So we've got an amazing topic for
Speaker:today, which is how does AI change
Speaker:the approach to professional
Speaker:development? And we have a wonderful
Speaker:guest for this which is Anna Thomas.
Speaker:She is the department chair at NYU.
Speaker:Where she oversees the HR program
Speaker:and is the co-author of Humans at
Speaker:Work. So before we get to and
Speaker:i wanted to ask you a couple
Speaker:questions first one is she
Speaker:defined professional development
Speaker:broadly as an ongoing commitment to
Speaker:our own skills and well being.
Speaker:To maintain career relevancy.
Speaker:Do you like that definition?
Speaker:I do. I like it better than, well,
Speaker:you know what I feel like about
Speaker:PDPs.
Speaker:Frameworks. So, you know, I hate a
Speaker:framework, I hate a PDP.
Speaker:So. Taking your
Speaker:relevancy into your own hands and
Speaker:your personal responsibility to
Speaker:figure out how you stay relevant
Speaker:sounds great to me.
Speaker:And then just briefly, if you can
Speaker:just package this up, why do we
Speaker:collectively hate PDPs,
Speaker:LMSs, training courses as
Speaker:a whole? What's the issue?
Speaker:So I hate PDPs because
Speaker:they generally are too many things
Speaker:that people are trying to do at
Speaker:once.
Speaker:Over too long a period.
Speaker:And like stupid smart objectives
Speaker:and you spend all this time writing
Speaker:it and like what resources do I need
Speaker:and in theory it should be good and
Speaker:help you think.
Speaker:But it just ends up becoming.
Speaker:Tedious.
Speaker:Overly complicated and then you put
Speaker:it in a drawer and never look at it
Speaker:again. So that's why I hate PDPs.
Speaker:LMS is.
Speaker:I rarely take a course
Speaker:ever.
Speaker:That I learned something from.
Speaker:And I have Almost.
Speaker:No respect for any teachers
Speaker:of any courses.
Speaker:I mean, I have to say this is like
Speaker:and training courses and stuff.
Speaker:And it's very hard to find somebody
Speaker:who's good and it's really hard to
Speaker:learn something from that.
Speaker:And then in LMS, you just stick it
Speaker:on a video and it becomes even more
Speaker:pointless.
Speaker:And more of a box-taking exercise.
Speaker:I have to say, though...
Speaker:I am taking, as you know,
Speaker:one course that has changed my life
Speaker:with an amazing teacher, and that's
Speaker:my writing class.
Speaker:But it's not about like how to write
Speaker:good emails.
Speaker:So my experience with LMSs in
Speaker:particular is that they get zero
Speaker:usage, zero adoption, or very
Speaker:little. At the end of the day, it
Speaker:has to be applied in some form,
Speaker:whether it's like your writing
Speaker:course or my acting classes that I
Speaker:talked about before, where you're
Speaker:not just getting instruction, you're
Speaker:getting out there to actually do it
Speaker:and getting critiqued on your doing.
Speaker:Thank you.
Speaker:I think that's where the rubber hits
Speaker:the road in terms of actual
Speaker:usefulness for those types
Speaker:of things.
Speaker:One thing that Anna had talked about
Speaker:was the future being
Speaker:these personalized AI coaches
Speaker:to mentor you in the flow of work.
Speaker:And get those nudges in real time
Speaker:as you're actually doing what you're
Speaker:doing. What do you think of that?
Speaker:I think it sounds scary and then
Speaker:also I'm not sure we
Speaker:all need nudges.
Speaker:I don't think I'd want to use AI as
Speaker:a thing that nudges me in a certain
Speaker:direction. I can see how that's
Speaker:helpful.
Speaker:With your sales team,
Speaker:if you're looking for some sort of
Speaker:compliance around doing the selling
Speaker:in the right way, but people don't
Speaker:really like to be nudged all the
Speaker:time. You know, you want to do a
Speaker:bit of learning and then have some
Speaker:agency and ability to do it
Speaker:yourself. I think it'll be more
Speaker:helpful when you go to.
Speaker:Or when you're monitoring
Speaker:a bunch of AIs, they're doing things
Speaker:for you.
Speaker:And then also I watched this video
Speaker:the other day.
Speaker:About Critical
Speaker:thinking?
Speaker:That when you use AI,
Speaker:your ability to think critically
Speaker:plummets.
Speaker:And that sounds.
Speaker:A bit scary.
Speaker:But then I was also thinking, is it
Speaker:scary or is it just that we don't
Speaker:like change and schools want
Speaker:to teach children the way the
Speaker:Victorians thought children should
Speaker:be taught and we feel like any
Speaker:diversion from that.
Speaker:Is bad and inherently awful,
Speaker:but really...
Speaker:Times change, humans'
Speaker:ability to use technology.
Speaker:Means that how we're hardwired
Speaker:in our bodies is nothing compared to
Speaker:what our brains are capable of.
Speaker:Is it okay that we lose the ability
Speaker:to critically think as long as we
Speaker:have the ability to have machines
Speaker:critically think for us?
Speaker:I suppose there's always a critical
Speaker:thinking that has to happen.
Speaker:You're just critically thinking
Speaker:about other issues than what's being
Speaker:provided to you from ChanGBT or
Speaker:whatever.
Speaker:Yeah, but I guess we do
Speaker:need to have an ability to recognize
Speaker:bullshit.
Speaker:And hallucinations and maybe
Speaker:it will just stop.
Speaker:Or will become really, really good
Speaker:at it because it matters a lot.
Speaker:I'm sure to your point, the
Speaker:orchestration of the AI agents to do
Speaker:useful things will become a skill
Speaker:unto itself, I suspect.
Speaker:She talked about this example
Speaker:of this company called Valance, and
Speaker:Valance is an AI coach.
Speaker:And it's specifically tailored to
Speaker:allowing you as an individual to
Speaker:vent to it.
Speaker:It's something that holds you
Speaker:AI-wise as being accountable.
Speaker:And helps you reflect on your
Speaker:performance, your ways of working,
Speaker:it assists you in role-playing
Speaker:scenarios, and assists you at
Speaker:working with others or managing
Speaker:others in this case.
Speaker:And this whole kind of AI
Speaker:coach space.
Speaker:What do you make of that? Because on
Speaker:the one side of it, I can see this
Speaker:having massive value in the sense
Speaker:that traditional coaching,
Speaker:business coaches like Matthew Stone.
Speaker:Very good, but very expensive and
Speaker:not scalable across the
Speaker:organization. So if you really want
Speaker:to have an AI coach.
Speaker:There for every single person in the
Speaker:company that legitimately, to your
Speaker:point, when you need help and you
Speaker:want help, you're using it to get
Speaker:help. What do you make of that?
Speaker:I think I'm just old.
Speaker:I'm old and a Luddite.
Speaker:There's a part of me that's like,
Speaker:yeah, I can see the value of that.
Speaker:And then there's a part of like.
Speaker:But where's the human connection
Speaker:and.
Speaker:How much of coaching?
Speaker:How much of the value of coaching is
Speaker:the insights that you get?
Speaker:And how much of the value of
Speaker:coaching is the connection you make
Speaker:with another human.
Speaker:Who then like helps you have real
Speaker:insights.
Speaker:And there's like.
Speaker:AI therapists.
Speaker:Kind of going back to the.
Speaker:Dan Savage chat in the beginning
Speaker:there.
Speaker:A.I.
Speaker:Girlfriends that lonely men can
Speaker:have. Or lonely people, but I think
Speaker:it tends to be men and it's like.
Speaker:It's amazing that people can
Speaker:bond with.
Speaker:Machines, knowing that they're
Speaker:machines, but are so desperate for
Speaker:connection.
Speaker:That they're able to form a
Speaker:bond with them angrily.
Speaker:Just kind of have the plausible
Speaker:deniability.
Speaker:And so.
Speaker:For how should I write this email
Speaker:or...
Speaker:Help me practice what I
Speaker:should say for a difficult
Speaker:conversation really quickly.
Speaker:There's a benefit to it.
Speaker:But if nobody talks to
Speaker:humans and all of our time
Speaker:is spent. With machines.
Speaker:I think we're just gonna have a lot
Speaker:more incels and we're gonna have a
Speaker:lot of more radicalized.
Speaker:Men in their mother's basements,
Speaker:and already young people aren't
Speaker:having sex anymore.
Speaker:I know that we're not talking about
Speaker:sex, but clearly it's on my mind
Speaker:today, somehow all of this
Speaker:technology stuff.
Speaker:Yes, use it.
Speaker:Tactically, but still
Speaker:also.
Speaker:Talk to other humans.
Speaker:Who are actual people.
Speaker:And not machines.
Speaker:You know, as Charlie Cowan had
Speaker:talked about, if you're line
Speaker:managing somebody and all
Speaker:their PDP information, their
Speaker:performance reviews, your
Speaker:one-to-ones, whatever they have
Speaker:around the individual.
Speaker:They're all sitting there as a
Speaker:project and you're basically using
Speaker:that as a tool to help yourself
Speaker:think through how best to help
Speaker:that person in terms of management
Speaker:of that individual for career
Speaker:development, for whatever purposes
Speaker:that you have, that seems like a
Speaker:very useful tactical thing to have
Speaker:by your side.
Speaker:As a bit of a co-pilot too to help
Speaker:you do those one-to-ones better and
Speaker:also being able to do
Speaker:that in a way where...
Speaker:You're not having to spend hundreds
Speaker:of pounds on coaches, but you have a
Speaker:tool by which you can help yourself
Speaker:be better as line manager.
Speaker:Yes, but I think you should still
Speaker:make sure you talk to people.
Speaker:And not just talk, like make
Speaker:connections with people.
Speaker:So why don't we wrap up and move
Speaker:on to our conversation with Anna
Speaker:Tevis.
Speaker:You know, professional development
Speaker:itself is changing as we speak
Speaker:because...
Speaker:Professional development used to be
Speaker:about climbing the corporate
Speaker:ladder.
Speaker:The mailroom to, you know,
Speaker:executive suite.
Speaker:And our professional development is
Speaker:a. Kind of a hygiene.
Speaker:Necessity for pretty much any
Speaker:professional.
Speaker:Because of the changing environment,
Speaker:changing technologies.
Speaker:Changing roles and
Speaker:you know, instability basically in
Speaker:the job market, a lot of volatility
Speaker:there.
Speaker:So professional development is
Speaker:an ongoing commitment that
Speaker:every professional should make to.
Speaker:Their own skills,
Speaker:to their own even well-being
Speaker:and mental health, to how to
Speaker:manage.
Speaker:This level of change
Speaker:all around us.
Speaker:So professional development is a
Speaker:must do.
Speaker:For anyone who is
Speaker:in the workplace.
Speaker:Professional development, if
Speaker:you want to make it short
Speaker:and easy to understand is
Speaker:your portfolio of skills.
Speaker:That are marketable and
Speaker:have a real application
Speaker:in the workplace.
Speaker:It is about your social network.
Speaker:Professional network.
Speaker:That needs to be constantly updated
Speaker:as people move around, etc.
Speaker:And it is really your ability
Speaker:to, you know, take in.
Speaker:And understand and analyze
Speaker:the context.
Speaker:Of the day.
Speaker:Situation, work environment you are
Speaker:in. So it's kind of
Speaker:from basic skills.
Speaker:What do I do?
Speaker:So who do I know?
Speaker:And what it all means.
Speaker:Those three components are
Speaker:in your portfolio for professional.
Speaker:So it's not about having to take a
Speaker:bunch of courses, because whenever I
Speaker:think about professional development,
Speaker:that's what I think.
Speaker:Not at all. In fact, we are moving
Speaker:far away from traditional
Speaker:credentialing.
Speaker:And uh... The courses courses just
Speaker:absolutely one of the ways in
Speaker:which you enhance your
Speaker:skills, build your network.
Speaker:Understand the market.
Speaker:SITUATION BOT
Speaker:There are so many other.
Speaker:Ways in which that professional
Speaker:development could be achieved by
Speaker:individuals today because to new
Speaker:technologies that.
Speaker:It's just a small sliver
Speaker:of what you need to understand
Speaker:about.
Speaker:Taking care of your professional
Speaker:life.
Speaker:My feeling around professional
Speaker:development or instantly I think
Speaker:about learning management systems or
Speaker:LMSs and how useless they've been in
Speaker:organizations for the most part in
Speaker:scale-ups. So can you maybe just
Speaker:quickly comment on the LMS thing
Speaker:and then I guess maybe more
Speaker:interesting for the audience I think
Speaker:is where you're coming from Anna
Speaker:just in terms of your...
Speaker:Thesis on AI
Speaker:and its impact on professional
Speaker:development and what that looks like
Speaker:going forward.
Speaker:So I think the LMS is
Speaker:the kind of early 21st
Speaker:century way of organizing
Speaker:information.
Speaker:And it's still about an
Speaker:individual sitting passively sitting
Speaker:in front of.
Speaker:Whatever needs to be developed.
Speaker:Delivered the information where
Speaker:the learner...
Speaker:It's not a learner-centric,
Speaker:it's a learner focused environment,
Speaker:a little bit more targeted.
Speaker:However, The learner is still
Speaker:kind of a passive actor in
Speaker:that. LMS in the situation.
Speaker:Where we are at right now
Speaker:with the technologies available to
Speaker:us, and I write and speak
Speaker:about it.
Speaker:A personalized A.I.
Speaker:Coaching.
Speaker:Training, mentoring.
Speaker:That is built in the flow
Speaker:of work.
Speaker:So you work or you do something,
Speaker:you get feedback, you get
Speaker:just-in-time data.
Speaker:If there is a gap in your
Speaker:understanding of how to do certain
Speaker:things, there's an immediate
Speaker:feedback, et cetera.
Speaker:So it's very personalized.
Speaker:You are not stopping to
Speaker:do this professional development on
Speaker:the side. You are actually.
Speaker:Continuing to do your work,
Speaker:your tasks, and learning
Speaker:happens right there.
Speaker:So we have that capability right
Speaker:now with AI, and I think that
Speaker:that's really the future of
Speaker:learning. Overall not just
Speaker:professional development because
Speaker:those tools are beginning to
Speaker:be. Introduced in
Speaker:schools, at the universities.
Speaker:We're still far from
Speaker:the scaled implementation of
Speaker:those tools.
Speaker:But the experiments are on
Speaker:the way.
Speaker:Case studies are already beginning
Speaker:to. Get published.
Speaker:And really learning fast
Speaker:about creating immersive
Speaker:learning environments.
Speaker:And as I mentioned.
Speaker:In the flow of work rather than
Speaker:away from work.
Speaker:I guess when you were first
Speaker:answering the question of...
Speaker:Personal development or professional
Speaker:development. I was thinking about it
Speaker:as... Me developing
Speaker:myself.
Speaker:But actually, your answer is also
Speaker:about... Training staff
Speaker:or developing your teams.
Speaker:And so as a COO, who's looking
Speaker:at how to be much more effective
Speaker:for my team.
Speaker:Training and development, what would
Speaker:you recommend?
Speaker:To use the.
Speaker:These personalized learning
Speaker:tools, the coaches, and...
Speaker:Even chat GPT could be
Speaker:trained to be specifically
Speaker:focused on
Speaker:supporting, let's say, your team.
Speaker:And accomplishing certain goals.
Speaker:As a manager.
Speaker:What these tools allow you to do
Speaker:is to definitely have
Speaker:frequent interactions with your
Speaker:team. However, the team members are
Speaker:already in between those sessions,
Speaker:in between those interactions with
Speaker:the manager.
Speaker:Have the opportunity to get
Speaker:that tutoring and feedback on
Speaker:their own.
Speaker:Because of the data on their
Speaker:performance.
Speaker:Delivered just in time.
Speaker:If you take the performance
Speaker:management process as it was
Speaker:traditionally down in companies.
Speaker:It was done at the end of the.
Speaker:Year usually when a
Speaker:manager got together with their
Speaker:teams and and have had the
Speaker:conversation.
Speaker:There was a recency bias.
Speaker:There were all sorts of.
Speaker:Gaps in the data collection,
Speaker:etc.
Speaker:Now we can...
Speaker:Fast forward to AI and
Speaker:find that.
Speaker:Those interactions could be
Speaker:happening. On a daily basis.
Speaker:There are systems that are...
Speaker:Set up and you can help train
Speaker:your system as needed for your
Speaker:specific workplace.
Speaker:That will provide nudges to
Speaker:your team. So you as a manager
Speaker:do not.
Speaker:The traditional name for
Speaker:or historical name for
Speaker:a manager was a supervisor, right?
Speaker:So the supervisor is no longer
Speaker:looking over your shoulder because
Speaker:you are getting from the system's
Speaker:objective multimodal.
Speaker:Communication around.
Speaker:How you're performing.
Speaker:And the manager can make
Speaker:adjustments, have a different
Speaker:level of conversation around
Speaker:strategy.
Speaker:How to best apply.
Speaker:We have skills, et cetera, but.
Speaker:The very basic.
Speaker:Y'know. Feedback that needs
Speaker:to happen for people to develop
Speaker:their skills happens.
Speaker:Pretty much automatically in those
Speaker:organizations, especially now
Speaker:as we see companies coming
Speaker:in like these AI coaching companies,
Speaker:some of them I work with them.
Speaker:They're actually trained
Speaker:on the company's
Speaker:specific business.
Speaker:On the company's
Speaker:specific policies.
Speaker:Other types of information that are
Speaker:behind the firewall
Speaker:that our lamps are
Speaker:developed for the purposes of
Speaker:that particular organization and
Speaker:that particular business.
Speaker:So there's a lot of targeting that
Speaker:happens.
Speaker:And then the role of manager becomes
Speaker:more of a mentor and facilitator
Speaker:rather than a supervisor in
Speaker:the traditional sense.
Speaker:And also we're really always
Speaker:for.
Speaker:Lots of practical advice on this
Speaker:podcast and you're working with some
Speaker:of these.
Speaker:Providers do.
Speaker:Recommend any, like who
Speaker:should COOs look at?
Speaker:Yeah, I mean, I will just name a
Speaker:few in fact.
Speaker:At NYU in New York,
Speaker:I hold a coaching and technology
Speaker:summit. Which is a
Speaker:conference where we bring and
Speaker:these companies that specialize in.
Speaker:Coaching, educational.
Speaker:AI support, et cetera.
Speaker:So the top of line companies
Speaker:range from the platforms that
Speaker:Connect coaches and
Speaker:That was the first step, coaches
Speaker:with the employees, but
Speaker:now they're all moving to purely AI.
Speaker:My top of mind is Valence
Speaker:is a company that pure
Speaker:AI, they bring it into companies
Speaker:and big companies,
Speaker:diversified companies like Delta
Speaker:Airlines.
Speaker:Coca-Cola.
Speaker:Nestle and others are
Speaker:already bringing these tools
Speaker:in to make them available
Speaker:to.
Speaker:The employees at all levels,
Speaker:the beauty of these tools.
Speaker:Obviously is that they are
Speaker:cost-effective.
Speaker:They're specialized in the
Speaker:against policies and
Speaker:specifics of that particular company
Speaker:and that particular business, they
Speaker:have the capability of looking at
Speaker:data across multiple disciplines
Speaker:and multiple departments.
Speaker:And bring those data to
Speaker:individuals in a very targeted way.
Speaker:They're available.
Speaker:24-7.
Speaker:They are in multiple languages.
Speaker:Et cetera, and my favorite case
Speaker:study is what, for example,
Speaker:Delta allies has done.
Speaker:Where it was a very serious
Speaker:sort of operational issue.
Speaker:If you recall, there was a moment at
Speaker:time when...
Speaker:There was a computer crowd
Speaker:strike to their system and then all
Speaker:of the systems went down.
Speaker:Basically grounding on the
Speaker:airline for a whole number
Speaker:of hours.
Speaker:And so that was the
Speaker:trigger for the company to think
Speaker:what if we had AI
Speaker:level support.
Speaker:So these particular, and sort of
Speaker:instead of sending emails,
Speaker:communicating with a distributed
Speaker:network of people.
Speaker:Working at different airports, et
Speaker:cetera, in different locations.
Speaker:You can imagine that everyone on
Speaker:their handheld devices have
Speaker:access to these coaches that could
Speaker:be.
Speaker:Just in time trained on what
Speaker:the company recommends, what kind of
Speaker:recommendations centrally.
Speaker:And provide the coaching support
Speaker:to people on the ground at different
Speaker:gates at different time
Speaker:zones, etc.
Speaker:So I think that that's kind of the
Speaker:vision of...
Speaker:You know, how these particular tools
Speaker:are going to be used.
Speaker:So. Than all just
Speaker:for professional development.
Speaker:But also for problem solving.
Speaker:But also after the
Speaker:fact, they could be a great
Speaker:tool for self-reflection.
Speaker:Thinking about what kinds of
Speaker:skills were required.
Speaker:For us to You know, really.
Speaker:Get this right!
Speaker:So I think Delta is now embracing
Speaker:these tools and is beginning to
Speaker:fine tune them, but really allowing.
Speaker:All of the employees at all levels
Speaker:access to.
Speaker:The AI coaching tools.
Speaker:It kind of seems like we're now
Speaker:seeing...
Speaker:Really a blending of everything now
Speaker:together, which is it is all
Speaker:about high performance and under the
Speaker:banner of high performance.
Speaker:We have all sorts of things we have
Speaker:kind of classic training of skills,
Speaker:soft skills in terms of how to work
Speaker:with others and collaborate.
Speaker:You've got the mental health part
Speaker:of what that looks like.
Speaker:How does that all play out, I guess,
Speaker:just in terms of all the different
Speaker:pots that we're talking about,
Speaker:because if we go back to the start
Speaker:of this podcast, we talked about
Speaker:LMSs, and LMS did one specific
Speaker:thing. Mental health as it's
Speaker:classically been geared for scale up
Speaker:does one specific thing so this
Speaker:kind of blending together is really
Speaker:now we're talking about all of that
Speaker:high performance battery so i
Speaker:imagine it my head.
Speaker:So I'm just wondering where does
Speaker:that end and where does a generic
Speaker:tool like Chat GPT pick up then to
Speaker:be honest, because it's hard to see
Speaker:the dividing line anymore between a
Speaker:generalist tool as opposed to a
Speaker:specific tool based on company
Speaker:information.
Speaker:You're absolutely right.
Speaker:I personally think that the future
Speaker:of performance is going to
Speaker:be in this ability to
Speaker:integrate so many different inputs
Speaker:and data.
Speaker:On the humans and the humans are
Speaker:going to be working in hybrid teams
Speaker:and The next generation hybrid
Speaker:is not whether you work from home or
Speaker:in the office. It's going to be how
Speaker:many thoughts you have on
Speaker:your team and what kind of their
Speaker:functions are going to be.
Speaker:So I think these are all very
Speaker:different skill sets that will
Speaker:need to be acquired going forward.
Speaker:But the one thing that I
Speaker:see as the next step right now...
Speaker:There are these specialties that way
Speaker:the companies are.
Speaker:As I mentioned, like valence with
Speaker:their lead with AI developmental.
Speaker:LLM called Nadia is
Speaker:the name of the coach.
Speaker:But the integration of like
Speaker:wellbeing data, almost like
Speaker:what I compare it to professional
Speaker:athletes.
Speaker:When we look at professional
Speaker:athletes and look at their
Speaker:performance.
Speaker:You know, we do not separate out
Speaker:the state of their health from
Speaker:how they perform.
Speaker:Which we still do for humans
Speaker:in the workplace, right?
Speaker:We kind of up until recently
Speaker:probably called it was a great
Speaker:accelerator.
Speaker:For us to start looking into
Speaker:the wellbeing part of
Speaker:performance as an integral
Speaker:part of.
Speaker:Effective.
Speaker:And productive.
Speaker:Employee than their overall
Speaker:So I think we're going to see
Speaker:this tremendous degree of
Speaker:integration.
Speaker:In the workplace and...
Speaker:Everyone is going to be managing
Speaker:multiple.
Speaker:Agents between agents,
Speaker:digital tweens, this is still out
Speaker:there.
Speaker:They're already existing and
Speaker:beginning to.
Speaker:Show up in some experimental
Speaker:case studies where You play
Speaker:different scenarios, it's very
Speaker:immersive.
Speaker:We've talked about for skills
Speaker:development, we've looked at.
Speaker:Metaverse for example, we kind of
Speaker:put it on the back burner for a
Speaker:while But he's gonna come
Speaker:back pretty soon where
Speaker:you're going to be practicing skills
Speaker:in these.
Speaker:Simulated environments,
Speaker:which basically ensure a
Speaker:much more accelerated
Speaker:Learning curve.
Speaker:Than from what we've seen before
Speaker:sitting in class and taking notes.
Speaker:Et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker:And the challenge for us right now
Speaker:is to better understand.
Speaker:How humans need to do that and
Speaker:train people on taking
Speaker:advantage of all of these support
Speaker:systems.
Speaker:That are becoming available.
Speaker:And my recommendation is to start
Speaker:with just some basic color lamps
Speaker:that people have on there.
Speaker:Phones right now like Chad's GPT.
Speaker:And train them and create their
Speaker:own.
Speaker:Chat that will be like your
Speaker:dedicated coach.
Speaker:So that they have
Speaker:of the memory and information about
Speaker:your preferences, et cetera, et
Speaker:cetera, and that will become even
Speaker:more important.
Speaker:As people move
Speaker:from job to job because right now
Speaker:a lot of these case studies are
Speaker:within companies for the company
Speaker:to achieve their goals, etc.
Speaker:As I said, trend on the policies,
Speaker:trend on that specific.
Speaker:Market segment, etc.
Speaker:But for individuals to be able
Speaker:to have that.
Speaker:Market relevance across
Speaker:different segments in industries.
Speaker:It will be.
Speaker:Important to start with the coach
Speaker:early on and there are some
Speaker:incredibly persuasive.
Speaker:Examples of where.
Speaker:Starting from high school.
Speaker:These AI career
Speaker:coaches are beginning to get
Speaker:introduced.
Speaker:And then if all of that information
Speaker:is preserved as you move around and
Speaker:you own it.
Speaker:That will help you.
Speaker:Get coached, trained, et cetera,
Speaker:et cetera, and find appropriate
Speaker:employment.
Speaker:So that's kind of the promise out
Speaker:there. It's there right now.
Speaker:As I said, where I
Speaker:see most uptick...
Speaker:Is in the integration of
Speaker:AI coaching.
Speaker:And learning and development, skills
Speaker:development, and professional
Speaker:development in companies.
Speaker:With various types of
Speaker:experimentation continuing with
Speaker:other types of technologies.
Speaker:But all of it is focused on
Speaker:Accelerating.
Speaker:Skills development, finding
Speaker:better opportunities.
Speaker:And better fit, to be honest.
Speaker:For what you have
Speaker:to offer and what the organizations
Speaker:you might be joining are looking
Speaker:for. If that makes sense.
Speaker:It does make sense.
Speaker:This future that you paint is.
Speaker:Half terrifying and half
Speaker:exciting.
Speaker:Depending on whether you're going
Speaker:for the Pink
Speaker:Floyd, another brick in the wall
Speaker:moment, or more
Speaker:of the freeing that
Speaker:we're all going to have these
Speaker:machines doing everything.
Speaker:I'm going to choose the free
Speaker:egg. We're not all just bricks
Speaker:in the wall controlling machines,
Speaker:but actually, it means that we
Speaker:have. The ability to
Speaker:do more than we ever thought
Speaker:possible before.
Speaker:My sense working in startups
Speaker:is there's never enough hours of the
Speaker:day. There are never enough people,
Speaker:the dreams and visions that you
Speaker:have.
Speaker:Are always 18 months away.
Speaker:Do you think when we get really
Speaker:good at using machines?
Speaker:We'll actually achieve
Speaker:what we want to achieve within
Speaker:the right number of hours and
Speaker:be able to relax.
Speaker:I think that that's something that
Speaker:we should definitely aspire for.
Speaker:However, the biggest unknown to
Speaker:me is not technology.
Speaker:But the humans.
Speaker:Because all of these tools are
Speaker:showing up so fast.
Speaker:And way evolutionary.
Speaker:As, you know, mammals.
Speaker:Are not able to
Speaker:adjust in.
Speaker:Change how we know our brains
Speaker:are.
Speaker:Paleolithic, you know, we'd go back
Speaker:millennia.
Speaker:So I think that's the biggest
Speaker:unknown. And this is where...
Speaker:The concerns are, and
Speaker:this is the necessity
Speaker:of really...
Speaker:A very responsible
Speaker:individuals who are
Speaker:in charge or sort of.
Speaker:Types of innovations.
Speaker:And what I can say is with the
Speaker:introduction of these tools.
Speaker:In companies, the companies are
Speaker:watching it.
Speaker:Experimenting and watching, I'm
Speaker:involved in a couple of research
Speaker:projects right now.
Speaker:As we are kind of studying the human
Speaker:reaction to.
Speaker:Is tools.
Speaker:At scale in organizations,
Speaker:like with one.
Speaker:Leading insurance company we are.
Speaker:Looking at.
Speaker:Management behavior and how.
Speaker:Fast the managers can adjust
Speaker:how they're using these tools.
Speaker:What a day.
Speaker:Kind of the best practice use
Speaker:cases.
Speaker:And whether we're able
Speaker:to accelerate that productivity and
Speaker:efficiency, everything that we're
Speaker:looking for.
Speaker:But there's still a lot of questions
Speaker:around.
Speaker:You know, how the humans are going
Speaker:to respond.
Speaker:And the change will need to happen
Speaker:all the way to schools,
Speaker:high schools and before of how
Speaker:we learn.
Speaker:And what we learn.
Speaker:And it's already beginning to
Speaker:happen, but obviously not fast
Speaker:enough and it's.
Speaker:Most importantly, not evenly
Speaker:distributed.
Speaker:You'll have schools that are.
Speaker:Embracing it.
Speaker:Wishing it.
Speaker:And then took in from an educational
Speaker:perspective and companies as well.
Speaker:And obviously those who do not have
Speaker:the resources, the understanding,
Speaker:the staff, et cetera.
Speaker:And I think that.
Speaker:We'll create a lot of.
Speaker:Additional inequity in the market.
Speaker:And it's been amazing speaking with
Speaker:today. Unfortunately, we're rapidly
Speaker:running out of time.
Speaker:You have to answer the one question
Speaker:we ask every single one of our
Speaker:guests, which is out of everything
Speaker:that we covered today and not.
Speaker:If our listeners can only take one
Speaker:thing away, what would it be?
Speaker:I would say Just do it.
Speaker:Try it, experiment on yourself.
Speaker:Be out there.
Speaker:Trust that this is going to work
Speaker:out better for you if
Speaker:you are.
Speaker:Ahead of the curve.
Speaker:On internalizing those tools,
Speaker:learning how to.
Speaker:Use them to your advantage, et
Speaker:cetera. And then what.
Speaker:Delights me about these
Speaker:technologies.
Speaker:They're a lot easier too.
Speaker:Learn or to get.
Speaker:Used to in.
Speaker:Your day-to-day work.
Speaker:Than anything that we've seen
Speaker:before.
Speaker:On that note, thank you, Anna,
Speaker:for joining us on the Operations
Speaker:Room. If you like what you hear,
Speaker:please leave us a comment or
Speaker:subscribe and we will see you next
Speaker:week.
