76. Authenticity in Leadership
In this episode we discuss: Authenticity in Leadership. We are joined by Matthew Stone, from ME Consulting and Creating Liberating Working Cultures.
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We chat about the following with Matthew Stone:
- What message are you sending when you cancel a one-on-one — and is it the one you want employees to hear?
- Could listening more than you speak be the simplest way to strengthen trust and engagement?
- One-on-ones aren’t just meetings — how can they become your most powerful tool for retention and inclusion?
- Without proper training, are managers unknowingly missing the real value of one-on-ones?
- How can ending every one-on-one with clear commitments turn talk into tangible results?
References
- www.emeiconsulting.com
Biography
Matthew has spent decades working with some of the world’s leading organisations supporting their cultural evolution. He has designed and led transformational programmes at Group Board and Executive level on an individual and team basis in the areas of leadership, strategy, delivery and performance management and has advised on the attraction, development and retention of leading industry talent.
Through his direct experience in multiple settings, he understands organisational ecosystems from Board to early careers and their associated challenges. A master coaching practitioner,
Matthew has spent his life exploring and embracing techniques and philosophies from around the world committing his life to building and refining approaches to individual and collective development. These include an understanding of who we are and who we could be at depth, pathways that engineer our optimal development and the interplay of peer to peer development.
To learn more about Beth and Brandon or to find out about sponsorship opportunities click here.
Summary
18:14 – Curiosity over metrics in accountability conversations
31:06 – The starting point for emotional intelligence
35:28 – Building trust during onboarding
36:42 – The value of executive coaching
38:46 – Vulnerability as a leadership tool
41:26 – Preparing for difficult conversations
43:36 – One takeaway for leaders
This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis:
Podcorn - https://podcorn.com/privacy
Transcript
Hello everyone and welcome to
Speaker:another episode of the operations
Speaker:room, a podcast for COOs.
Speaker:I am Brandon Mencinga joined by my
Speaker:amazing co-host Bethany Ayers.
Speaker:How are things going, Bethany?
Speaker:I'm just having like a crisis of
Speaker:confidence today.
Speaker:Nothing's going well.
Speaker:My hair is a disaster.
Speaker:My wrinkles are coming out.
Speaker:I have Monday morning jitters
Speaker:about starting work.
Speaker:Oh jeez, it's all going on.
Speaker:All of that.
Speaker:It's just a bad day.
Speaker:It was all in my head, but yeah.
Speaker:I don't even think there's anything
Speaker:particularly bad at work today, but
Speaker:I just have the Monday dreads.
Speaker:I am just still tired.
Speaker:I didn't know when I'm going to
Speaker:recover.
Speaker:I look at myself in the mirror and
Speaker:I'm like, Look at the shell of a
Speaker:woman. What's happened to me?
Speaker:No haircuts, wrinkles everywhere,
Speaker:what's going on here?
Speaker:You've been destroyed by this
Speaker:acquisition.
Speaker:I really have, I mean, I can't blame
Speaker:the acquisition on my hair.
Speaker:I realized that I
Speaker:had my haircut just before I
Speaker:joined peak.
Speaker:And that was like eight or nine
Speaker:months ago.
Speaker:And then I haven't had my hair cut
Speaker:since.
Speaker:Oh Jesus, okay, that is a long time.
Speaker:Yes, that prompted me to get my
Speaker:haircut. I have a hairdresser that
Speaker:comes to me.
Speaker:Oh, nice.
Speaker:Okay. So this is similar to getting
Speaker:served your lunch by your husband.
Speaker:So I can see a pattern happening
Speaker:here where you're at your desk
Speaker:and you literally never leave
Speaker:because you get food, you get
Speaker:haircuts, you gets massages.
Speaker:Don't have the massages, although
Speaker:maybe I can.
Speaker:Yeah, so my hairdresser is like, he
Speaker:has a scooter and he has
Speaker:backpack full of hair accoutrement
Speaker:and he goes from house to
Speaker:house in Southwest London,
Speaker:cutting people's hair.
Speaker:And when he's not cutting our hair,
Speaker:he's doing model's hair and
Speaker:doing photo shoots and stuff.
Speaker:Okay, that's been a weird mix.
Speaker:Model hair, your hair, on
Speaker:a scooter, he's doing it all.
Speaker:I think this is probably why I'm
Speaker:having a crisis of confidence this
Speaker:morning, as I look at myself with
Speaker:every wrinkle and every
Speaker:gray hair and like, oh, he was
Speaker:hanging out modeling people for
Speaker:Ralph Lauren this weekend and now
Speaker:he's stuck looking at me.
Speaker:You're a senior executive, a
Speaker:high-ranking professional woman at
Speaker:work. You need to look your best.
Speaker:I do, but I'm just never gonna look
Speaker:like a Ralph Lauren model.
Speaker:So we have an
Speaker:amazing topic which is authenticity
Speaker:in leadership and we have
Speaker:a wonderful guest for this which is
Speaker:Matthew Stone.
Speaker:He is the director at ME Consulting
Speaker:and a long-time executive coach.
Speaker:He was in fact my coach for many,
Speaker:many years as well.
Speaker:So before we get to Matthew,
Speaker:I wanted to ask you a couple
Speaker:questions.
Speaker:What is the value in choosing
Speaker:to be curious about yourself.
Speaker:And how does one do this?
Speaker:I think there's massive value in it
Speaker:because it's about development
Speaker:and getting over your shit
Speaker:and finding a way of being happy,
Speaker:except for when you're freaking out
Speaker:about your wrinkles and gray hair on
Speaker:a Monday morning.
Speaker:So I have a friend, stay with
Speaker:me, I have this is actually
Speaker:genuinely a friend who just
Speaker:did an ayahuasca
Speaker:journey.
Speaker:You do tripping two nights,
Speaker:one night off, tripping, two nights
Speaker:go home. That's just a
Speaker:lot of hallucinating at.
Speaker:40 plus.
Speaker:I don't think I'd have the
Speaker:wherewithal anymore.
Speaker:Because I know a couple friends who
Speaker:have gone and done hallucinogens in
Speaker:this finding
Speaker:yourself, being curious about
Speaker:yourself exploration in their
Speaker:40s and 50s.
Speaker:I felt like, well, maybe I need to
Speaker:do that too.
Speaker:Maybe this is part of the journey.
Speaker:Then he was talking about it and I
Speaker:was having a panic attack.
Speaker:I told him he couldn't me about the
Speaker:hallucinating part.
Speaker:It was all about hearing about
Speaker:your insights.
Speaker:But I can't hear
Speaker:the stories of being in the place,
Speaker:in the pitch black, hallucinating.
Speaker:I really was about to start to
Speaker:hyperventilate.
Speaker:And then I was like, okay, so I'm
Speaker:really not ready
Speaker:for any sort of hallucinating,
Speaker:and I said that to him.
Speaker:He's like, well, I think you've done
Speaker:your journey in a different
Speaker:way.
Speaker:So, you know, all of the body work
Speaker:that you've done, and like, now I'm
Speaker:interested in maybe doing breast
Speaker:work. He's saying that, and it's
Speaker:like...
Speaker:I just don't think I need the
Speaker:hallucinogens to do my
Speaker:self-discovery the way
Speaker:that maybe some other people now
Speaker:do, which is why I had such a
Speaker:physical reaction to it.
Speaker:But I've really benefited
Speaker:from walking through
Speaker:the trauma of my childhood
Speaker:and getting to the other side and
Speaker:being a fully-fledged person.
Speaker:And I think that's part of it is the
Speaker:curiosity.
Speaker:I mean, maybe I'm getting a bit too
Speaker:deep for you for a Monday morning
Speaker:and it wasn't really your question.
Speaker:No, no, no. This is the question, I
Speaker:think, to be honest, because I think
Speaker:as an adult, especially when you're
Speaker:in your career and your job and in
Speaker:your relationship and your family
Speaker:environment, kids and all that,
Speaker:you start to go on autopilot to some
Speaker:extent. Like when I was in my early
Speaker:thirties, I did a fair amount of
Speaker:introspection.
Speaker:I don't feel like there's a
Speaker:tremendous amount of space and time
Speaker:to be concerned about my inner
Speaker:working, so to speak, at the stage
Speaker:of the game.
Speaker:But to your point, I think there's
Speaker:real practical ways of getting there
Speaker:that don't require these kind of
Speaker:with the top exercises.
Speaker:effective, hence yourself in this
Speaker:case.
Speaker:Yeah. But I also think that there is
Speaker:different ways of
Speaker:being able to start to face it.
Speaker:I tried therapy before I had
Speaker:kids and just was not
Speaker:there, didn't work, nothing
Speaker:happened.
Speaker:And it was after being married
Speaker:with two kids and probably
Speaker:the most stable place in
Speaker:my life I'd ever been was
Speaker:when I found myself
Speaker:capable of looking at therapy.
Speaker:My therapist at that point posited
Speaker:that the reason why that was was
Speaker:because I was in such a stable
Speaker:place. I didn't go and consciously
Speaker:think, right, now I'm somewhere
Speaker:stable. Now I can start to
Speaker:unpick the past.
Speaker:It was all subconscious, but I
Speaker:needed that safe
Speaker:base to look at
Speaker:everything that happened in the past
Speaker:and my reactions and own
Speaker:up to just how unhappy I was.
Speaker:I think if you've
Speaker:come from a really stable,
Speaker:happy background.
Speaker:you don't have a lot of trauma and
Speaker:life is like generally pretty good.
Speaker:The need for self introspection
Speaker:is probably a lot less because
Speaker:those of us who are just really
Speaker:unhappy that need to
Speaker:work through it to find the joy on
Speaker:the other side.
Speaker:So I had gotten pretty distinctly
Speaker:negative feedback in the business
Speaker:I was in at the time, and
Speaker:I frankly didn't know how to deal
Speaker:with it myself, and I was wondering
Speaker:what the next step was, and that's
Speaker:really what led me to work with
Speaker:Matthew Stone, to be honest, as a
Speaker:business coach.
Speaker:He was very effective in pulling
Speaker:out of me what the issues were,
Speaker:pushing them back on me to reflect
Speaker:on what they actually were and get
Speaker:me to act on it behaviorally
Speaker:in a way that was different.
Speaker:I feel like through that four years
Speaker:that I worked with Matthew, and this
Speaker:is slightly different I guess from
Speaker:therapy in the more classic sense,
Speaker:but really felt like therapy in a
Speaker:business sense, which is
Speaker:being able to take feedback,
Speaker:accept the feedback.
Speaker:Take it for what it is pull the
Speaker:points that are actually quite
Speaker:useful that i need to act on and
Speaker:then to introspect and then act on
Speaker:basically in a very practical way.
Speaker:Add made a big difference for me
Speaker:from my career standpoint and
Speaker:the one that was probably earlier
Speaker:than that was going into the acting
Speaker:classes and the acting class
Speaker:is our tremendous vehicle.
Speaker:to really examine myself
Speaker:but it more broadly i guess
Speaker:i can just good for examining
Speaker:human behavior as a whole because
Speaker:we're doing there when you're acting
Speaker:either watching it or being a part
Speaker:of it. It's all about human behavior
Speaker:and getting responses from yourself
Speaker:and get responses to the other
Speaker:actor. and also get in the audience
Speaker:to engage with you that whole kind
Speaker:of exercise of doing that over and
Speaker:over again and having different
Speaker:characters bring yourself to that
Speaker:character give you an ability to
Speaker:explore yourself through the
Speaker:characters you're playing it i
Speaker:thought at the end of that i was
Speaker:much more realizing my
Speaker:strengths my weaknesses my
Speaker:communication ability of like where
Speaker:i kind of sat a little bit and also.
Speaker:had an opportunity to get better at
Speaker:a lot of different aspects of how I
Speaker:communicate as a human being and
Speaker:behaviorally being able to engage
Speaker:people in more useful ways.
Speaker:Yeah, so I think you definitely
Speaker:we've ended up answering both
Speaker:questions because the other part was
Speaker:the how and I think the how
Speaker:is a multitude of ways.
Speaker:You had acting, I had
Speaker:the body work,
Speaker:somebody else is going for
Speaker:ayahuasca.
Speaker:I have another friend who like
Speaker:quarterly does MDMA in like a
Speaker:contained safe environment,
Speaker:years of therapy,
Speaker:writing.
Speaker:finding art, going for sport,
Speaker:like there's just so many different
Speaker:ways that you can start to find
Speaker:that route into yourself.
Speaker:There's not one answer.
Speaker:So that brings us to the next
Speaker:question, which is, what is the
Speaker:value in being curious about others?
Speaker:making connection with others that
Speaker:is genuine.
Speaker:Like for me, my relationships
Speaker:with others is what
Speaker:makes me feel good and
Speaker:part of the world.
Speaker:It's kind of like what's the benefit
Speaker:of donating money is it
Speaker:makes you feel good. Like everything
Speaker:ends up coming back to yourself
Speaker:because we're fundamentally
Speaker:selfish people.
Speaker:And it's also one of those things
Speaker:where I don't think I was nearly
Speaker:as good a friend or connection
Speaker:with other or as empathetic as
Speaker:I am now before becoming empathetic
Speaker:and understanding myself.
Speaker:when you have a lot of your own shit
Speaker:and you're threatened by people and
Speaker:you think you're not good and
Speaker:you don't like a large chunk
Speaker:of you and you meet somebody who
Speaker:reflects that back to you because
Speaker:they probably have the same bad
Speaker:traits and therefore you hate them
Speaker:or they're really
Speaker:successful and then you hate because
Speaker:you don t feel successful and like
Speaker:all of those reasons why you end up
Speaker:not making connection all
Speaker:comes back down to how you feel
Speaker:about yourself, and so...
Speaker:or how, you know, this is by my
Speaker:personal experience.
Speaker:And so the fact that I can like
Speaker:forgive myself and see humor
Speaker:and know that I have massive
Speaker:weaknesses along with strengths
Speaker:then means that I can be
Speaker:way more generous with other people
Speaker:because I'm generous with myself and
Speaker:I'm not like viewing myself
Speaker:through the other people through the
Speaker:lens of me all the time.
Speaker:And then being able to be generous
Speaker:with other people means that
Speaker:they can feel it.
Speaker:Barriers are lowered and
Speaker:make real connections and see
Speaker:people for who they are and that's
Speaker:just immensely rewarding
Speaker:One of the things that Matthew had
Speaker:said to me originally was part of
Speaker:what you need to do, Brandon, is be
Speaker:genuinely curious about other
Speaker:people. It just gives you an ability
Speaker:to transition seamlessly
Speaker:from classic, I don't know what you
Speaker:want to call it, like
Speaker:accountability, businessy stuff.
Speaker:to bob like what's what's really
Speaker:happening here like we need to kind
Speaker:of like figure what's going on here
Speaker:and having that conversation
Speaker:sometimes when you're going
Speaker:down this kind of accountability
Speaker:route with a person and you
Speaker:see kind of in their eyes
Speaker:or in the behavior something else is
Speaker:happening i i always clue in now and
Speaker:i'm like okay i need to like pull
Speaker:back here and try something a bit
Speaker:different and go down this track of
Speaker:a little more pushing hard on the
Speaker:empathy side and connection side to
Speaker:see if i can reveal something about
Speaker:what's And
Speaker:the use of that yields good results
Speaker:just in terms of that oscillation
Speaker:back and forth.
Speaker:And then the other question was,
Speaker:how do you access your
Speaker:own authenticity and apply it in a
Speaker:business context?
Speaker:I think part of it is just getting
Speaker:older and giving less of a fuck.
Speaker:And so it's kind of like I'm
Speaker:accessing my authenticity because I
Speaker:can't be bothered to be anybody
Speaker:else.
Speaker:How do you get there faster?
Speaker:That's a question.
Speaker:I don't know if you can speed it up,
Speaker:but I remember years
Speaker:ago when my father was approaching
Speaker:50, and he actually
Speaker:died at 52,
Speaker:just turned 52, so
Speaker:little did he know that he was quite
Speaker:so close to the end of his life.
Speaker:But I was in my early
Speaker:or mid-20s, and said to
Speaker:me, like, I'm just getting tired.
Speaker:It's like when you're young, you're
Speaker:batting cage, and the balls come at
Speaker:you, and you're like swinging every
Speaker:ball, and it's like, yes, I can
Speaker:swing another one, I could swing
Speaker:another one. It's like.
Speaker:Now at 50,
Speaker:like I just don't have the energy to
Speaker:swing at all these balls.
Speaker:They, they just don' t seem fun
Speaker:anymore. And now I'm probably
Speaker:the same age he was and
Speaker:I get it.
Speaker:I was like, you just don t have as
Speaker:much energy for all
Speaker:of the shit.
Speaker:And you're like, okay, that ball
Speaker:coming at me, that one, I need to
Speaker:swing out all these others, whatever
Speaker:I'll do one every five minutes
Speaker:rather than 50 a minute
Speaker:or whatever I do.
Speaker:Yeah, so I don't know if you can
Speaker:speed it up or it's just part of the
Speaker:natural evolution
Speaker:of being a human and
Speaker:perspective and having
Speaker:a lot of ups and downs
Speaker:and realizing that life isn't
Speaker:just about the ups, it's about the
Speaker:downs and getting through them as
Speaker:well and retaining your
Speaker:energy for what matters.
Speaker:And definitely seeing things as a
Speaker:game because it is.
Speaker:You know how a couple of years ago,
Speaker:they talked about gender being a
Speaker:social construct.
Speaker:And when it first happened, I was
Speaker:like, whatever gender social
Speaker:construct, and then it started to
Speaker:seep into me and I'm like, yeah,
Speaker:gender is totally a social
Speaker:construct. And now I just look at
Speaker:like, everything is a social
Speaker:construct, like money.
Speaker:We all really buy into it, but it
Speaker:doesn't exist.
Speaker:Jobs don't exist, our
Speaker:culture is a shell social construct
Speaker:that there's so many things and we
Speaker:have opted.
Speaker:work matter because we are
Speaker:beings and desperately need things
Speaker:to matter for the 70
Speaker:to 100 years if we're lucky that
Speaker:we're on the planet.
Speaker:But the thing is as soon as you move
Speaker:to something else, you make that
Speaker:matter loads.
Speaker:If you can keep that distance
Speaker:between what truly
Speaker:matters and what you choose to
Speaker:matter, you can have a little
Speaker:bit more humor in it all.
Speaker:Yeah, and generally enjoy your life.
Speaker:The last question, when was the last
Speaker:example for you where you felt fully
Speaker:in your element at work
Speaker:in terms of flow?
Speaker:You were just there, things
Speaker:we're trucking.
Speaker:I just have like this massive event
Speaker:that's happened to me that all I can
Speaker:think about is the last six
Speaker:weeks and I can't
Speaker:even remember what the world was
Speaker:like previous to six weeks ago.
Speaker:There were definitely moments in
Speaker:the DD exit process
Speaker:that I was in flow, but like
Speaker:not in a fun way.
Speaker:So I'm trying to remember the
Speaker:world before the exit.
Speaker:On that note, let's get on to our
Speaker:conversation with Mr. Matthew Stone.
Speaker:What is the difference between good
Speaker:executives and great executives at
Speaker:the C-suite level in your eyes?
Speaker:great executives are
Speaker:able to create
Speaker:truly engaged empathic
Speaker:relationships where
Speaker:they recognize what's
Speaker:outstanding about the people that
Speaker:are around them and
Speaker:are willing to engage
Speaker:from that place and
Speaker:with that insight and
Speaker:they also choose
Speaker:to be a cultural
Speaker:barometer.
Speaker:And by that, what I mean is, is the
Speaker:organizations coalesce
Speaker:around a series of values.
Speaker:If a great leader recognizes
Speaker:those values and choose
Speaker:to role model them,
Speaker:and invites the best from
Speaker:the people around him or her,
Speaker:and chooses to,
Speaker:where possible,
Speaker:cascade that culture and
Speaker:that sense of purpose through the
Speaker:wider organization, there's a
Speaker:possibility of greatness.
Speaker:I think to happen.
Speaker:which immediately brings me on
Speaker:to another question, which is
Speaker:greatness in whose eyes?
Speaker:I think that's a great question.
Speaker:What does that mean to you,
Speaker:greatness in whose eyes?
Speaker:Because I guess I was like, from
Speaker:Brandon's question, I was thinking
Speaker:the difference between good and
Speaker:great is immediately self-serving
Speaker:and I want to be a great executive
Speaker:and therefore be recognized
Speaker:and have career progression.
Speaker:But your answer felt more like
Speaker:a great Executive in the eyes of
Speaker:the team members of
Speaker:the company that you're working at.
Speaker:And are they one in the same?
Speaker:And I'm not sure they always
Speaker:are like you can definitely some
Speaker:great leaders are not recognized as
Speaker:great leaders at a company and vice
Speaker:versa.
Speaker:I think greatness is,
Speaker:certainly from my experience,
Speaker:is appraised as a result of the
Speaker:outcome.
Speaker:And the outcome being for
Speaker:the organization, or if it's
Speaker:in the wider political realm, but
Speaker:the organization that
Speaker:they're leading.
Speaker:So what happens?
Speaker:What happens for the folks that
Speaker:are there?
Speaker:What happens to the markets that
Speaker:they are serving?
Speaker:And hopefully the wider world that's
Speaker:impacted by the
Speaker:services and products that they
Speaker:providing.
Speaker:So I think greatness is what
Speaker:greatness does, rather than
Speaker:what it actually means for the
Speaker:individual, I would say.
Speaker:Maybe it's just kind of where I'm at
Speaker:at the moment in a slightly
Speaker:reflective place.
Speaker:How much does making
Speaker:good decisions play into
Speaker:greatness?
Speaker:I think it's fundamental.
Speaker:I think leaders are invited to make,
Speaker:where possible, great decisions and
Speaker:great decisions and the
Speaker:responsibility of making decisions
Speaker:that are fundamentally appropriate
Speaker:for the organization and what it's
Speaker:trying to provide is
Speaker:the stewardship that they're
Speaker:providing.
Speaker:So a leader's ability
Speaker:to genuinely allow
Speaker:an outstanding decision to
Speaker:arise from colleagues.
Speaker:and to be clear enough to recognize
Speaker:when it feels like the absolute
Speaker:appropriate decision for what
Speaker:they're facing, I think is
Speaker:right in the center of what
Speaker:great leadership is being tasked
Speaker:with.
Speaker:Something that occurs to me, where
Speaker:I see this pretty consistently, is
Speaker:this struggle and scale ups for
Speaker:the CEO where you want
Speaker:to have that empowered culture, you
Speaker:want have that autonomous culture,
Speaker:you want a good context around
Speaker:the empowerment and autonomy whereby
Speaker:people really understand what we're
Speaker:trying to get done.
Speaker:What CEOs often get concerned about
Speaker:is accountability, and as
Speaker:a CEO, you're trying to create a
Speaker:culture of empowerment, autonomy,
Speaker:but also on the flip side, a really
Speaker:accountable culture.
Speaker:I think a lot of companies struggle
Speaker:with this. A lot of CEOs struggle
Speaker:with it. So I'm just wondering, from
Speaker:your standpoint, how can a CEO
Speaker:kind of best foster that
Speaker:accountability side of things,
Speaker:do you think?
Speaker:I think ultimately we're
Speaker:enrolled to provide something.
Speaker:And I think a COO's
Speaker:willingness to
Speaker:lean into that responsibility
Speaker:for
Speaker:those that are around him or her
Speaker:being clear about
Speaker:that stewardship and that
Speaker:challenge.
Speaker:And what I've noticed from working
Speaker:with COOs is, is
Speaker:often the real challenge that they
Speaker:face is the
Speaker:ability to navigate
Speaker:conversations where accountability
Speaker:is front and center and doing
Speaker:it in a way that's
Speaker:constructive, empathic,
Speaker:but nonetheless, leaning into
Speaker:the direct responsibility of what's
Speaker:being anticipated from an individual
Speaker:or a team.
Speaker:That is one of the most significant
Speaker:skills, I think, for COOs
Speaker:is how do you
Speaker:steward high performance.
Speaker:Notice when it's not happening.
Speaker:and be willing and able to lean
Speaker:into the emotionality,
Speaker:but without being driven by the
Speaker:emotion of those kind
Speaker:of challenges.
Speaker:And what I've known from my
Speaker:COO clients in the past is
Speaker:that they may have a very strong
Speaker:operational strength, but the
Speaker:emotional challenge of
Speaker:holding folks to account in
Speaker:a way that's professionally
Speaker:supportive, but nonetheless
Speaker:exacting, is a very
Speaker:hard and different skill.
Speaker:And it's not always a skill that's,
Speaker:we say, encouraged
Speaker:or shaped as they have moved through
Speaker:the organization to that C-suite
Speaker:position.
Speaker:I just had an idea come across,
Speaker:which is maybe
Speaker:COOs are so tied to
Speaker:OKRs and measurable outcomes
Speaker:so they don't have to have the tough
Speaker:conversations and actually telling
Speaker:somebody that they haven't hit a KPI
Speaker:is not the same thing as holding
Speaker:somebody to account.
Speaker:It's almost a cop out for having
Speaker:that conversation because I'm not a
Speaker:big fan of KPI's just to, or sorry,
Speaker:I am a fan of KPIs, I'm a fan OKR's
Speaker:for the most part, a way a lot
Speaker:organizations, roll them out
Speaker:because there's a...
Speaker:particularly in startups and
Speaker:scale-ups, there's so
Speaker:much rigidity in them that it
Speaker:doesn't actually adjust to the
Speaker:business quite often, or we end
Speaker:up recording the wrong things, or we
Speaker:end with KPIs that are too
Speaker:soft so that we don't have to have
Speaker:those conversations.
Speaker:And then by overly
Speaker:relying on the
Speaker:KPI or arguing
Speaker:that we don't actually have the
Speaker:underlying conversation of
Speaker:true underperformance and what's
Speaker:driving that underperformance.
Speaker:and it ends up being, I guess.
Speaker:For me, one of the examples is
Speaker:always poor marketing.
Speaker:We always beat up on marketing, but
Speaker:the marketing leader
Speaker:who fights really hard for a certain
Speaker:set of KPIs that end up being fairly
Speaker:irrelevant to the rest of the
Speaker:business and then say they're
Speaker:performing against them or
Speaker:restructures how they're gonna
Speaker:calculate them and is up to
Speaker:a COO to either say,
Speaker:no, you are fundamentally
Speaker:underperforming regardless of what
Speaker:your numbers are or,
Speaker:well, I've built a structure and a
Speaker:framework and it says
Speaker:that it's green, I'm just going to
Speaker:let it be green.
Speaker:what I'd be really curious about
Speaker:is what would feel like
Speaker:a really aligned
Speaker:way in which to appraise whether
Speaker:someone is performing in
Speaker:a way or a department is performing
Speaker:in a that the organization requires.
Speaker:And what he's saying is that
Speaker:that alignment isn't always
Speaker:happening.
Speaker:And in the lack of that
Speaker:alignment, then there's a tough
Speaker:conversation, if needed,
Speaker:not necessarily happening.
Speaker:and what I notice...
Speaker:with the greatest challenges that
Speaker:organizations face, certainly
Speaker:in the C-Sweets that I work with,
Speaker:is creating that quality of
Speaker:alignment where there's a deep
Speaker:sense of agreement,
Speaker:understanding what the
Speaker:actual challenge is and the way it's
Speaker:going to be accounted for and
Speaker:measured that doesn't feel political
Speaker:or.
Speaker:in any way averting
Speaker:the fundamental issue,
Speaker:but I think creating that alignment
Speaker:is complicated.
Speaker:I don't know if KPIs and OKRs
Speaker:are actually as good as it
Speaker:needs to be in order to create
Speaker:that sense of a
Speaker:real understanding of the challenge
Speaker:and way that it's going to be
Speaker:appraised.
Speaker:So I think what you're touching on
Speaker:is really important and
Speaker:I think that what we're actually
Speaker:talking about is alignment.
Speaker:So alignment, it's interesting
Speaker:because we started with accountability
Speaker:and we've landed on alignment and
Speaker:then we need the alignment first.
Speaker:And then is it easier to hold people
Speaker:to account?
Speaker:I would say absolutely.
Speaker:I would if folks
Speaker:are aligned around the challenge and
Speaker:way that it's going to be measured
Speaker:in ways that really truly
Speaker:reflect what the organization is
Speaker:endeavoring to achieve, then it's
Speaker:much easier to
Speaker:have a powerful accountability
Speaker:conversation.
Speaker:So I think they're two parts of
Speaker:the same conundrum.
Speaker:So maybe to take the conversation
Speaker:in a different direction, the CEO
Speaker:always wants to be in a position
Speaker:where they have really good
Speaker:executive presence and they can
Speaker:really influence other leaders and
Speaker:the rest of the organization.
Speaker:Can you maybe talk us through what a
Speaker:CEO might think about to help
Speaker:themselves on that pathway?
Speaker:What I notice about presence is
Speaker:that it's normally an outcome of
Speaker:authenticity.
Speaker:And what I mean by authenticity is
Speaker:when someone recognizes
Speaker:the truth of
Speaker:how they think and feel in any one
Speaker:situation, whether it's
Speaker:a sense of purpose,
Speaker:whether it's their values
Speaker:and their choosing to inhabit
Speaker:that in a way that feels congruent
Speaker:and that sense, that feeling
Speaker:when someone is clear.
Speaker:is that you're in relationship with
Speaker:someone in their integrity.
Speaker:And what I notice is that when
Speaker:someone is aligned within
Speaker:themselves, a sense of
Speaker:clarity, it's what sums
Speaker:up to integrity presence.
Speaker:I don't think it's jazz hands, I
Speaker:don t think it s loudness, I think
Speaker:it is a function of self
Speaker:understanding and willingness
Speaker:to step into that self
Speaker:understanding when faced
Speaker:with some of the really tough
Speaker:challenges that COO,
Speaker:CEO, C-suite members and other
Speaker:members of the organization are
Speaker:facing. So I think that the hard
Speaker:yards are.
Speaker:really choosing to
Speaker:understand where
Speaker:he or she sits around
Speaker:any particular issue and understand
Speaker:it at depth and being willing
Speaker:to have a conversation from
Speaker:that place and that's much easier
Speaker:said than done in my experience
Speaker:because often that deep
Speaker:understanding requires work
Speaker:and it's not always work that's
Speaker:prioritized and what then happens
Speaker:is executive presence
Speaker:is more easily diluted because
Speaker:it's reactive, not
Speaker:responsive.
Speaker:I'm just pondering that.
Speaker:I think with a woman's view
Speaker:on this, one of the things
Speaker:that I've been told in my career
Speaker:and a lot of other women
Speaker:are told quite often is
Speaker:that we lack gravitas.
Speaker:And I would think of gravitas as
Speaker:also a version of executive
Speaker:presence.
Speaker:And it seems to be often like
Speaker:a gendered
Speaker:feedback. So our voice
Speaker:isn't right. We don't dress
Speaker:appropriately, we come
Speaker:across too girly.
Speaker:trying to think of what other kinds
Speaker:of things that have been put into
Speaker:that bucket of gravitas.
Speaker:Do you have anything specific
Speaker:that you would advise
Speaker:women to do?
Speaker:Because oftentimes, coming
Speaker:into our integrity and our
Speaker:place of truth is something that
Speaker:is quite feminine, and then we're
Speaker:told we don't have gravitas."
Speaker:My experience is
Speaker:that gravitas is a function of
Speaker:clarity and if
Speaker:women are being told that
Speaker:their executive presence is
Speaker:not landing then
Speaker:my female
Speaker:coaching clients that I work with
Speaker:that face those challenges is
Speaker:to be even more clear,
Speaker:not louder, not more robust,
Speaker:not more assertive, but even
Speaker:clearer.
Speaker:it from a basis of their
Speaker:insight, commercial acumen,
Speaker:EQ, as to
Speaker:what a clear conversation
Speaker:could look like to move forward,
Speaker:the issues that they're trying to
Speaker:move forward. So I would say
Speaker:deepening into the truth of who they
Speaker:are is where Gravitas lay,
Speaker:not in any way.
Speaker:choosing to ape
Speaker:the male approach,
Speaker:because they're not men, they're
Speaker:women, and the truth of
Speaker:who they are is more than powerful
Speaker:enough.
Speaker:So I would encourage that
Speaker:deepening of self-understanding
Speaker:and working
Speaker:on their comm style in
Speaker:a way that reflects their
Speaker:leadership style.
Speaker:So what's an even more...
Speaker:robust and by robust I don't mean
Speaker:loud but engaged
Speaker:experience of their style
Speaker:facing out to their male colleagues
Speaker:because that feels like they're
Speaker:being true to who they are rather
Speaker:than trying to be who they're not.
Speaker:So that sounds very aspirational.
Speaker:I guess the question is, how does
Speaker:one do that?
Speaker:What would you advise?
Speaker:That process is a function of
Speaker:self-awareness.
Speaker:So let's say, for example,
Speaker:somebody's facing into a situation
Speaker:where they absolutely
Speaker:notice that with this
Speaker:particular colleague, they get
Speaker:triggered.
Speaker:And when they get triggers,
Speaker:they find themselves off-center.
Speaker:They find that their conversational
Speaker:style feels less empowered.
Speaker:So the work there, if that was a
Speaker:situation, the work there would
Speaker:be to build out their
Speaker:self-awareness, to understand more
Speaker:at depth what's actually happening
Speaker:in relationship, say,
Speaker:with this person's male colleagues
Speaker:that has them feel disempowered.
Speaker:What would feeling empowered
Speaker:look feel like?
Speaker:And what would a narrative look
Speaker:and feel like that reflects the
Speaker:truth of this individual's intent?
Speaker:So I think there's practice, and
Speaker:sometimes help is useful.
Speaker:I think this practice in managing
Speaker:difficult conversations
Speaker:in this situation with male
Speaker:colleagues that can be more
Speaker:triggering so that there's
Speaker:an awareness of
Speaker:being conscious in those situations
Speaker:and not reactive.
Speaker:Because what I know about feeling
Speaker:empowered is it's a function of
Speaker:response, not reaction.
Speaker:Playing that through.
Speaker:and being, this is where support
Speaker:might be helpful, playing that
Speaker:through in a way that's
Speaker:reflecting the truth of how someone
Speaker:would like this conversation to go,
Speaker:takes work.
Speaker:And there's all sorts of
Speaker:methodologies to support
Speaker:conversational impact.
Speaker:One person that comes to mind that
Speaker:does outstanding work is a lady
Speaker:called Susan Scott, wrote a book
Speaker:called Fierce Conversations.
Speaker:and very supportive
Speaker:in thinking through how
Speaker:communication style can land,
Speaker:but in a way that's true to the
Speaker:individual, not based on
Speaker:gender politics.
Speaker:Is that for not just one-to-one
Speaker:conversations, but broader ones?
Speaker:Cause I feel like often it's in the,
Speaker:in the leadership team is the only
Speaker:woman in the room where, and
Speaker:nobody's hearing your voice or
Speaker:you say something, nobody responds
Speaker:two minutes later, somebody else has
Speaker:the exact same thing you said.
Speaker:And everybody starts to talk about
Speaker:it, give them credit and say it's a
Speaker:great idea dealing with those kinds
Speaker:of dynamics.
Speaker:I can only imagine not being female,
Speaker:but I can only imagine that's deeply
Speaker:frustrating and
Speaker:undermining.
Speaker:And then, then the question is, is
Speaker:in those situations, if it feels
Speaker:like there's a regularity
Speaker:to that, well, how do you construct
Speaker:the conversation with your
Speaker:male colleagues?
Speaker:What would you need to say?
Speaker:So there's a really wonderful
Speaker:framework in fierce conversations
Speaker:that I often lean into,
Speaker:which is if there's a situation,
Speaker:there's some series of steps that
Speaker:someone can do outside of the
Speaker:conversation to get their narrative
Speaker:clear. So let's use your example,
Speaker:Bethany, which you're at
Speaker:work, you're in the C-suite,
Speaker:you feel unheard.
Speaker:So the first part
Speaker:of the stages is
Speaker:what's the context, what's
Speaker:situation.
Speaker:situation is here I am
Speaker:talking to my male colleagues not
Speaker:feeling hurt.
Speaker:What's the impact of that?
Speaker:The impact is it feels
Speaker:alienating, disempowering,
Speaker:unhelpful, unreceptive.
Speaker:What is the consequence?
Speaker:The consequence is that I
Speaker:choose not to speak in those
Speaker:situations. My contribution is not
Speaker:felt. My impact on decisions is
Speaker:undermined.
Speaker:What is the request? The request is
Speaker:when I speak, listen.
Speaker:What's the agreement can we agree
Speaker:next time I speak in one of our
Speaker:board meetings that you
Speaker:folk choose to listen up so
Speaker:that's quite a kind of harsh
Speaker:playthrough, but there are styles
Speaker:And formats that someone can go
Speaker:through To enable those very
Speaker:difficult conversations to happen
Speaker:away happen in a way that feels
Speaker:Clear robust and empowered
Speaker:and it doesn't have to be loud
Speaker:adversarial aggressive Just
Speaker:clear
Speaker:But to pull back for a moment to
Speaker:maybe a slightly broader question
Speaker:that always comes up in these
Speaker:companies, especially with leaders,
Speaker:is this idea or question
Speaker:of how do you develop self-awareness
Speaker:and emotional intelligence?
Speaker:Because a lot of these leaders are,
Speaker:as we know, very numbers-focused,
Speaker:metric-focused.
Speaker:How do leaders become more self-
Speaker:aware and how do they put themselves
Speaker:in a position where they can really
Speaker:be better at the EQ side of
Speaker:things? What does that look like?
Speaker:So what that looks like, I think,
Speaker:is choosing to be curious about
Speaker:ourselves because if we're going to
Speaker:be emotionally competent, the
Speaker:first person that we need to be
Speaker:emotionally competent about is us.
Speaker:And we have access to that data
Speaker:ongoingly, we just might not be
Speaker:choosing to listen into it.
Speaker:So that curiosity could look like,
Speaker:why is it that I feel this way when
Speaker:I'm in this conversation with this
Speaker:individual?
Speaker:What is my true sense of
Speaker:purpose at work?
Speaker:Why does it matter? Why do I care
Speaker:about what I care about?
Speaker:What happens when I feel stressed?
Speaker:How does my communication style get
Speaker:impacted when I am stressed?
Speaker:So those kind of questions lead to
Speaker:a level of self-understanding.
Speaker:When we have that self-
Speaker:understanding growing and it is a
Speaker:skill, that gives us the ability
Speaker:to create even more understanding
Speaker:with our colleagues so we can
Speaker:be as understanding of
Speaker:others. as we are with ourselves.
Speaker:So the first person to build EQ
Speaker:with is us and as
Speaker:we do that we'll build the
Speaker:opportunity and the possibility of
Speaker:empathic relationships with
Speaker:our colleagues.
Speaker:So curiosity and similarly
Speaker:curiosity about our colleagues so
Speaker:if you notice that someone is
Speaker:in a situation where they're really
Speaker:not being their best at work instead
Speaker:of driving into accountability at
Speaker:that and it might be a bunch of
Speaker:questions. What's happening?
Speaker:why are you feeling that way?
Speaker:How is it impacting the role
Speaker:that you're trying to fulfill at the
Speaker:moment? How can I support you?
Speaker:So it's questions, Brandon.
Speaker:It's questions that you ask yourself
Speaker:and it's question that you ask your
Speaker:colleagues when normally,
Speaker:and I would say this in
Speaker:all due respect, the
Speaker:COOs that I've coached in the past
Speaker:can often appear very
Speaker:transactional. They're very task
Speaker:orientated, which I understand.
Speaker:It is the indexing in of their
Speaker:particular role, however...
Speaker:their commitment of course to high
Speaker:performance could be served
Speaker:by applying a little
Speaker:bit more curiosity about
Speaker:well-being of their colleagues and
Speaker:then layering that back
Speaker:into performance rather than dealing
Speaker:with the task as
Speaker:directly as often as the case.
Speaker:And what goes on is, in my mind,
Speaker:is back to the original question
Speaker:that we were discussing together and
Speaker:with Bethany around alignment and
Speaker:the relationship between alignment
Speaker:and accountability, is that if
Speaker:you do have that curiosity at
Speaker:moments when metrics aren't being
Speaker:met, there's possibly an
Speaker:alignment conversation that can come
Speaker:in that could re-engage
Speaker:a colleague in a way where higher
Speaker:performance is possible.
Speaker:so that curiosity can
Speaker:lead to an even better appraisal of
Speaker:what's needed and even better
Speaker:response from the person that
Speaker:appears to be not meeting their
Speaker:numbers.
Speaker:And I also appreciate the fact that
Speaker:EQ is a learned skill because I
Speaker:think sometimes it's a bit of a
Speaker:cop-out for people where it's like,
Speaker:I'm just not good at it.
Speaker:I'm not an EQ person.
Speaker:It's just not my shtick.
Speaker:It's not who I am.
Speaker:In a business context in particular,
Speaker:everything is learned skill almost
Speaker:in a way, whether it's communication
Speaker:skills, EQ skills, whatever skills,
Speaker:I suppose.
Speaker:I think EQ is a skill.
Speaker:I think the reality is
Speaker:that often having a
Speaker:conversation to explore
Speaker:somebody's relationship with the
Speaker:task and their felt experience
Speaker:with the task is deprioritized
Speaker:and not seen as a good efficient use
Speaker:of time.
Speaker:And what that then means is
Speaker:is the opportunity to build a
Speaker:strengthened relationship in the
Speaker:face of that conversation is missed.
Speaker:So it's a skill that's
Speaker:deprioritised, I think, in
Speaker:error because I think strengthening
Speaker:team comes as a function of
Speaker:emotional understanding and
Speaker:aligned commitment around task.
Speaker:often with my COO
Speaker:clients that willingness
Speaker:to prioritize
Speaker:that curiosity is
Speaker:a challenge because they
Speaker:tend to be folks that are under a
Speaker:huge amount of pressure and where
Speaker:they're being appraised around
Speaker:metrics and it's not often seen
Speaker:as a good use of time.
Speaker:My counsel is that it is.
Speaker:I've just recently onboarded myself
Speaker:into a new company.
Speaker:I've met all the key stakeholders,
Speaker:customer success, marketing, sales,
Speaker:et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker:And usually in these first
Speaker:onboarding sessions, I'd be very
Speaker:interested in their structure,
Speaker:their process, their numbers, who's
Speaker:doing what. And what I explicitly
Speaker:did this time was to not do that
Speaker:at all and really use the
Speaker:hour spent on really
Speaker:getting to know them, their
Speaker:motivations, what inspires them.
Speaker:And I think to be honest, when I
Speaker:think through that onboarding
Speaker:sequence, that decision.
Speaker:I think is an important decision to
Speaker:make explicitly.
Speaker:I think we're humans working with
Speaker:humans, and humans sit
Speaker:behind the skill and understanding
Speaker:what drives somebody, understanding
Speaker:what gets the best out of them,
Speaker:understanding what has them tip up
Speaker:at work in a good way or not,
Speaker:I think is fundamental for a leader
Speaker:to do his or her job, and
Speaker:you choosing to invest in
Speaker:a relationship with the human
Speaker:before getting into the
Speaker:particularities is actually correct
Speaker:sequencing.
Speaker:Because if you understand the
Speaker:person, then chances are you're
Speaker:going to have an opportunity to have
Speaker:a really co-creative,
Speaker:constructive, engaged, accountable
Speaker:relationship down the line.
Speaker:So I think your vesting for
Speaker:that hour was bang on.
Speaker:Can you maybe just talk about the
Speaker:value of executive coaching for
Speaker:individuals or for leadership teams?
Speaker:Because it's funny, because when I
Speaker:think back to our time together, as
Speaker:I joined you on the journey, we
Speaker:start with a crisis moment because
Speaker:you have a problem.
Speaker:You try to get that problem sorted.
Speaker:And I think throughout that process,
Speaker:what I realized was that there is
Speaker:massive value just on
Speaker:an ongoing basis to have an
Speaker:executive coach.
Speaker:But I'm just wondering in your eyes,
Speaker:just for like a generic leadership
Speaker:team with average problems,
Speaker:I guess. When should an executive
Speaker:coach be present in some form,
Speaker:I guess?
Speaker:I have to say I'm perhaps biased,
Speaker:but here's what my point of view is.
Speaker:My point of views is that
Speaker:the skill of getting the best out of
Speaker:ourselves individually and
Speaker:collectively, consistently.
Speaker:in a way that's congruent with an
Speaker:organization's aspiration is hard.
Speaker:And if you've got a really great
Speaker:coach that recognizes what
Speaker:excellence looks and feels like from
Speaker:the individual or from the team
Speaker:and can continue working
Speaker:with the individual group,
Speaker:the quality of their response,
Speaker:so that they're digging deep and
Speaker:improving, refining, optimizing
Speaker:their ways of working, That in
Speaker:itself is a job and it requires
Speaker:input.
Speaker:I've not seen a team that can
Speaker:self-regulate to that standard
Speaker:naturally.
Speaker:So a good coach who's looking
Speaker:through the window of what's
Speaker:outstanding potentially in this
Speaker:team, what are their blockers and
Speaker:can be useful in building a mirror
Speaker:and refining
Speaker:ways of working is a,
Speaker:I think, a highly valuable
Speaker:investment to make for the
Speaker:organization because the
Speaker:biggest asset in an organization is
Speaker:the talent around the table,
Speaker:accessing the talent and
Speaker:having it be congruent with
Speaker:the organization's need is a job
Speaker:and I think the job is
Speaker:often for a coach, sometimes
Speaker:it's for a leader to play coach
Speaker:but then that leaves the leader
Speaker:without that input for him or
Speaker:herself so I would say
Speaker:any organization that
Speaker:is committed to high performance
Speaker:could do with interventions
Speaker:from coach either intermittently
Speaker:or ongoingly.
Speaker:The last area I just wanted to
Speaker:briefly talk about was this,
Speaker:I feel like this is such a
Speaker:talk track around leaders, or has
Speaker:been for probably five, six, seven,
Speaker:eight years now, but it's around
Speaker:this idea of vulnerability for
Speaker:leaders.
Speaker:Vulnerability in the new world as a
Speaker:leader is very important, but it is
Speaker:also a bit of a definition of like,
Speaker:what are we really talking about?
Speaker:How can one access that and use
Speaker:that to great effect within a
Speaker:company? And maybe just a bit of
Speaker:sense from yourself around using
Speaker:vulnerability as a tool and what
Speaker:that looks like.
Speaker:My experience of vulnerability is
Speaker:that it's uncomfortable and
Speaker:it's normally uncomfortable because
Speaker:we're exposing something of
Speaker:importance to ourselves and
Speaker:that might be exposing what drives
Speaker:us, if we're leaders, what drives
Speaker:us to have this particular
Speaker:job or role be meaningful
Speaker:and important.
Speaker:That might be displaying a level
Speaker:of humanity that's
Speaker:uncomfortable but what I
Speaker:know about the skill.
Speaker:of being willing to reveal
Speaker:oneself and i'm not
Speaker:just talking about revealing oneself
Speaker:in role i'm talking about
Speaker:reviewing oneself as a human in
Speaker:relationship to the role and
Speaker:why it's important and
Speaker:in situations with colleagues
Speaker:revealing who we are in relationship
Speaker:to the circumstance,
Speaker:so for example, Bethany was talking
Speaker:about how some female
Speaker:colleagues may experience themselves
Speaker:in the boardroom, vulnerability
Speaker:is there, there is expressing
Speaker:the truth of their experience and
Speaker:finding a way that feels
Speaker:professionally appropriate to be
Speaker:able to do that.
Speaker:Is it of value to
Speaker:choose to lean into our
Speaker:vulnerability undoubtedly?
Speaker:Why is it important?
Speaker:Because from that place we can
Speaker:genuinely and authentically meet.
Speaker:Why is that important?
Speaker:If we can meet we can generally
Speaker:align and coalesce
Speaker:around challenge.
Speaker:So vulnerability is a
Speaker:doorway into
Speaker:engaged and meaningful relationships
Speaker:and displaying it in a way that
Speaker:feels professionally appropriate but
Speaker:nonetheless revealing who we
Speaker:are is of great value.
Speaker:Also why?
Speaker:Because then those that are
Speaker:colleagues within an organization
Speaker:know who they're following.
Speaker:they know who they're following
Speaker:genuinely and that's felt people are
Speaker:really perceptive if someone's being
Speaker:real they know, who they are
Speaker:following and then they can choose
Speaker:to be led by that individual.
Speaker:So vulnerability not wanting to be
Speaker:too woo about it is a window
Speaker:into who we are and that is a
Speaker:windows that leaders I would
Speaker:say would be encouraged should
Speaker:be encouraged to let folks look
Speaker:into because that's where
Speaker:genuine fellowship arises
Speaker:from.
Speaker:When it comes to managing difficult
Speaker:conversations, as always as
Speaker:human beings, we always try to shy
Speaker:away from this or pull back or try
Speaker:to avoid it somehow.
Speaker:And in a business context, it
Speaker:happens all the time.
Speaker:You can see it all over the place,
Speaker:to be honest.
Speaker:And I'm just curious, again, from
Speaker:your standpoint, from a coach's
Speaker:point of view, how best to
Speaker:prepare an individual for difficult
Speaker:conversations that they have to have
Speaker:or even being proactive about it, to
Speaker:honest.
Speaker:The framework that I discussed with
Speaker:Bethany is a really helpful one,
Speaker:because often a difficult
Speaker:conversation is
Speaker:emotionally challenging.
Speaker:And when we're emotionally
Speaker:challenged, it's not so easy to be
Speaker:clear and rational, is my
Speaker:experience.
Speaker:What supports us
Speaker:feeling enabled in
Speaker:that situation is to
Speaker:play through the steps.
Speaker:So for example,
Speaker:what's the circumstance?
Speaker:what's the impact of that
Speaker:circumstance?
Speaker:What's the consequence?
Speaker:What is the request?
Speaker:What is the agreement?
Speaker:If you do that prep ahead
Speaker:of a challenging conversation,
Speaker:chances are you're in your
Speaker:integrity and you're in,
Speaker:so to speak, your spine in the
Speaker:situation. It's much easier
Speaker:to be upright and clear,
Speaker:but it requires work and the more
Speaker:challenging the conversation the
Speaker:more impactful that has
Speaker:on you in doing it
Speaker:the more the work in preparing it
Speaker:is encouraged i would say
Speaker:so practice and
Speaker:the most important thing is is
Speaker:that if you're having that
Speaker:conversation is to
Speaker:step truly in the spirit of
Speaker:Alliance.
Speaker:And there's a form of words
Speaker:which I don't have at hand that
Speaker:Brené Brown, a heroine of mine,
Speaker:Brené Brown was speaking about how
Speaker:to prepare for feedback.
Speaker:And that's the feedback giver,
Speaker:where she really talks about how
Speaker:do embody that spirit of alliance.
Speaker:One of the things that she says is
Speaker:that you're sitting side by side
Speaker:with the person, not opposite the
Speaker:person. So it's a truly constructive
Speaker:relationship, but nonetheless, it
Speaker:can be absolutely clear and honest.
Speaker:So I'd say those challenging
Speaker:conversations require work
Speaker:and preparation and good to
Speaker:get support in building out that
Speaker:skill.
Speaker:If you could leave our audience with
Speaker:one thing from the conversation
Speaker:today, what would that be?
Speaker:The one thought I would say is
Speaker:that the greatest investment that
Speaker:you can make in your ability
Speaker:to be truly impactful
Speaker:in your work is be curious.
Speaker:Be curious about yourself
Speaker:at depth and be curious about
Speaker:your colleagues and then when
Speaker:answers come from within or comes
Speaker:from colleagues, listen up because
Speaker:that's probably the greatest skill
Speaker:that a leader can generate
Speaker:is their ability to be curious
Speaker:with their colleagues and with
Speaker:themselves.
Speaker:Love it. So thank you for joining us
Speaker:on the Operations Room.
Speaker:If you like what you hear, please
Speaker:subscribe or leave us a comment and
Speaker:we will see you next week.
