82. Resilience in Organisations
In this episode we discuss: Resilience in Organisations. We are joined by Aušrinė Keršanskaitė, Co-founder of Operations Nation.
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We chat about the following with Aušrinė Keršanskaitė:
- How can leaders tell the difference between true resilience and simply powering through burnout?
- When is “just-enough process” better than perfect systems in a growing company?
- Which of the five types of resilience—optimistic, stoic, pragmatic, active, or existential—do you rely on most at work?
- What happens when imposter syndrome hits even the most experienced operations leaders—and how can you use it to grow?
- Why might learning to walk away from the wrong role or battle be the most resilient decision of all?
References
- https://www.linkedin.com/in/ausrine
- www.operationsnation.com
Biography
Aušrinė Keršanskaitė is a seasoned operations leader, community builder, and connector at heart. With over a decade of hands-on experience guiding startups from scrappy pre-seed beginnings to thriving Series B stages, she knows firsthand what it takes to build strong foundations and empower people along the way.
For the past five years, Aušrinė has been the driving force behind Operations Nation, a community-powered knowledge hub that connects and empowers hundreds of operations leaders around the world. Operations Nation offers a safe, supportive space for ops professionals to share advice and “ops war stories,” helping each other survive, grow, and thrive in their careers.
A firm believer that operations is the backbone of every great company, Aušrinė combines her operational expertise with a deep passion for bringing people together and building community wherever she goes.
To learn more about Beth and Brandon or to find out about sponsorship opportunities click here.
Summary
05:00 — Balancing speed versus sustainability in scaling operations
11:00 — Timing back-office investments and compliance readiness
15:00 — Re-orgs, structural resilience, and organizational adaptability
17:00 — Introduction to the Five Types of Resilience framework
21:00 — Deep dive into each resilience type with personal stories
28:30 — Imposter syndrome and trusting your gut as a leader
33:00 — Redefining success and boundaries in operations roles
37:00 — Shared vulnerability and leadership resilience
39:30 — Final takeaway: putting your own oxygen mask on first
This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis:
Podcorn - https://podcorn.com/privacy
Transcript
Hello, and welcome to another
Speaker:episode of the Operations Room, a
Speaker:podcast for COOs.
Speaker:I am Brandon Mencinga, joined by my
Speaker:lovely co-host as usual, Bethany
Speaker:Ayers. How are things going,
Speaker:Bethony?
Speaker:I have a cold.
Speaker:I haven't had a cold in a very long
Speaker:time, I feel, and I'm
Speaker:not handling it particularly
Speaker:well.
Speaker:Not because, like, I mostly just
Speaker:decided to ignore that I have cold
Speaker:and see how much I can do
Speaker:through cold medicine alone and
Speaker:powering through.
Speaker:I mean, given the fact that this
Speaker:episode is about resilience,
Speaker:you're diving into it right now, the
Speaker:resilience to colds affecting
Speaker:you and your performance.
Speaker:Yeah, I'm not sure if it's
Speaker:resilience or just stupidity.
Speaker:Partially it's because really
Speaker:enjoying my job, have so much to do,
Speaker:don't want to take a sick day,
Speaker:and then also I'm, like,
Speaker:desperately trying to get into a
Speaker:good fitness routine and
Speaker:habit, and so I just don't
Speaker:the cold to disrupt any of that.
Speaker:So, anything else going on in your
Speaker:world these days, what's happening?
Speaker:The office.
Speaker:Our office is an old WeWork.
Speaker:This week we got our storage
Speaker:units and they're, so
Speaker:Matomic's color is like a dark
Speaker:purple.
Speaker:I'm not loving our brand
Speaker:colors because, like, to
Speaker:build slides we have dark purple,
Speaker:medium purple, light purple,
Speaker:gray purple.
Speaker:Rainbow of purples happening
Speaker:there.
Speaker:Yeah, which is limiting,
Speaker:let's say, but it means that we
Speaker:got storage that is light purple, so
Speaker:it's one of our brand colors, and
Speaker:then I am slowly
Speaker:bringing plants in from our house
Speaker:because we have an overrun of
Speaker:plants. My husband doesn't like how
Speaker:many plants are here anyhow,
Speaker:so I carried an
Speaker:aloe vera in with me on the
Speaker:overground yesterday.
Speaker:You should have seen the looks I was
Speaker:getting.
Speaker:People are walking around with the
Speaker:spikes, but we have that in now,
Speaker:and then we got a drinks fridge, and
Speaker:so now all of our drinks instead of
Speaker:being in Tesco bags sitting
Speaker:in the corner are in the
Speaker:refrigerator, and one of
Speaker:our teammates sent out a message
Speaker:on Slack yesterday because we
Speaker:had an office day.
Speaker:Can everybody spend their first 10
Speaker:minutes cleaning up around their
Speaker:spaces and organizing their
Speaker:wires and, like, the office looks
Speaker:really nice now, so now we have a
Speaker:lot of office pride, and I'm...
Speaker:It's really nice to walk in and not
Speaker:just be like, is this a dorm room?
Speaker:That's amazing.
Speaker:So is there a bit of a sense of
Speaker:positivity response-wise with folks
Speaker:around the office?
Speaker:Yeah, and I've had feedback that it
Speaker:feels like a new company and it
Speaker:feels like a grown-up company, and
Speaker:also that I would have hated the
Speaker:old office.
Speaker:Whatever was going on in the old
Speaker:office, I can't remember if I told
Speaker:you, there was, like, the only
Speaker:furniture that made it in from the
Speaker:old office I just hated.
Speaker:They brought the best furniture
Speaker:over, and it was these bean
Speaker:bag sofas.
Speaker:Because it's a bean bag, it's low on
Speaker:the ground, so you have to sit about
Speaker:a foot off the ground,
Speaker:and they're corduroy and kind
Speaker:of, like...
Speaker:Appley, minty, green, very
Speaker:worn.
Speaker:And it's just like, what is this?
Speaker:And that was the best furniture.
Speaker:So it's like, these have to
Speaker:go.
Speaker:So here's a miniature positive
Speaker:thing that happened this past week,
Speaker:which is, for the All Hands meeting,
Speaker:so we now have an office in New York
Speaker:City, we have roughly, let's say, 15
Speaker:employees there, and as always for
Speaker:All Hands, the comms connection
Speaker:between London and New York is
Speaker:very important, so everyone can hear
Speaker:each other properly, be able to ask
Speaker:questions properly.
Speaker:And, you know, we now have more
Speaker:employees in the London office, and
Speaker:it's also important that the
Speaker:speakers are projected and
Speaker:amplified, whereby you can hear them
Speaker:at the back of the room effectively.
Speaker:This past week, we had our first All
Speaker:Hands meeting where everything
Speaker:worked perfectly.
Speaker:It was amazing.
Speaker:I was so proud.
Speaker:Of the team, because I feel like
Speaker:we've gone on a bit of an evolution
Speaker:here. I decided to
Speaker:not get a technical outside
Speaker:AV consultant to come in to
Speaker:help us select equipment and put it
Speaker:all together and all that jazz.
Speaker:My brilliant idea was to do it
Speaker:myself, DIY, because we're scale
Speaker:up, you know, budget conscious.
Speaker:Went on ChatGBT,
Speaker:mapped out what I needed to buy,
Speaker:how it all connected together.
Speaker:I had this kind of 10-page PDF
Speaker:document that showed the visuals.
Speaker:I was like, how hard can this be?
Speaker:I mean, congratulations.
Speaker:I know how complicated because I've
Speaker:been starting to try and look at it
Speaker:for us as well.
Speaker:And first of all, it's so expensive
Speaker:and secondly, quite complicated.
Speaker:I will send you my 10-page PDF.
Speaker:Please do.
Speaker:Yeah, share it.
Speaker:That could be our next subscription
Speaker:content is Brandon's
Speaker:10-page PDF if you want to do your
Speaker:own.
Speaker:So let's move on.
Speaker:We've got a great topic for today,
Speaker:which is resilience in
Speaker:organizations.
Speaker:We have an amazing guest for this,
Speaker:which is Oshrina.
Speaker:She is the co-founder of Operations
Speaker:Nation, which we have a longstanding
Speaker:relationship with.
Speaker:And they have their conference
Speaker:upcoming, I believe, this October,
Speaker:which I'm sure will be fantastic and
Speaker:we'll be joining as well.
Speaker:So before we get to Oshrina, I just
Speaker:wanted to ask you a couple of
Speaker:questions, Bethany.
Speaker:The first one was, many
Speaker:organizations fall into this
Speaker:just-get-it-done mode during
Speaker:the growth phase or the scale-up
Speaker:phase.
Speaker:How do you balance getting stuff
Speaker:done, getting shit done in speed
Speaker:versus building sustainable systems
Speaker:or having an eye towards that?
Speaker:What should a CEO be thinking about?
Speaker:So part of it is I'm
Speaker:a real fan of
Speaker:just-in-time process and
Speaker:just-enough process.
Speaker:And I think there's a tendency for
Speaker:some people to want to do it
Speaker:all rather than what
Speaker:actually matters.
Speaker:And when you want to it all and
Speaker:build out something perfect, that's
Speaker:what slows down the business versus
Speaker:what will speed
Speaker:people up for
Speaker:now and remove the mental load for
Speaker:now without producing a
Speaker:huge amount of work.
Speaker:So one example for me is
Speaker:HubSpot or CRM.
Speaker:People want to capture everything
Speaker:and lots of just-in-cases,
Speaker:what-ifs, what if we need to know it
Speaker:in the future.
Speaker:And I don't want
Speaker:that salespeople have to fill in all
Speaker:of that information because the more
Speaker:required boxes you make...
Speaker:...The worse the quality is
Speaker:and the less the salespeople will do
Speaker:it.
Speaker:So one of the things that I always
Speaker:task rev ops with is
Speaker:how much of the data can
Speaker:be sourced elsewhere
Speaker:and automatically put in
Speaker:so that nobody has
Speaker:to touch it.
Speaker:And then for the sales team,
Speaker:I make a commitment that
Speaker:the only required fields are
Speaker:the ones that actually matter and we
Speaker:keep it to the bare minimum and
Speaker:explain what they are.
Speaker:So for me, it's...
Speaker:Close date, stage,
Speaker:what products are we selling if we
Speaker:have more than one product, the most
Speaker:recent accurate deal value.
Speaker:Everything else should or
Speaker:could be automated in some way,
Speaker:particularly now that AI exists and
Speaker:you have all of these tools that
Speaker:will help you start to populate your
Speaker:HubSpot, we'll put in your med
Speaker:pic stuff, we'll tell you what size
Speaker:of company, industry,
Speaker:t-shirt size, whatever, like just
Speaker:stuff that...
Speaker:...Marketing wants to know or
Speaker:execs want to know that is
Speaker:not actually critical.
Speaker:And so that's one example of it, but
Speaker:I'm always thinking about like, what
Speaker:do we actually need versus
Speaker:the Rolls-Royce that somebody
Speaker:wants that is totally pointless
Speaker:right now?
Speaker:I think with things like HubSpot, I
Speaker:think it's such a great example
Speaker:because either it is
Speaker:totally not set up in any way
Speaker:that is like helpful to anyone,
Speaker:which is sometimes the case.
Speaker:And in other cases, you have the
Speaker:over-engineering effect where
Speaker:leadership wants to see charts
Speaker:A, B, and C, but they don't quite
Speaker:know what they want. So therefore,
Speaker:we need to have 25 charts to satisfy
Speaker:any potential desire on the part
Speaker:of leadership.
Speaker:Especially when you hire
Speaker:professionals to come in, they have
Speaker:a tendency to kind of like go the
Speaker:full route and it's just not needed.
Speaker:And I think sometimes...
Speaker:Contractors in this way are actually
Speaker:quite useful at early stages because
Speaker:they're very good at what they do,
Speaker:but they're also very wise in terms
Speaker:of like understanding the stage that
Speaker:you're at and what's appropriate to
Speaker:get done and also counseling the
Speaker:head of sales in a little more, you
Speaker:know, kind of a discreet fashion in
Speaker:terms of, you know let's not go
Speaker:crazy here, let's just do A, B, and
Speaker:C.
Speaker:The other thing that I
Speaker:think about is what matters
Speaker:to the business in the next 12
Speaker:months, maybe 18 months,
Speaker:and enabling that to happen and
Speaker:prioritizing that is the key bit.
Speaker:A good example in this case would be
Speaker:onboarding sales reps.
Speaker:So if we're going into a phase where
Speaker:we're starting to hire a higher
Speaker:number batch-wise of sales reps
Speaker:coming in or BDRs coming in,
Speaker:a reasonable amount of effort put
Speaker:into the onboarding process to
Speaker:ensure that...
Speaker:From zero productivity to
Speaker:X amount of productivity whereby
Speaker:they're actually achieving quota
Speaker:step-by-step, that matters,
Speaker:that's a return on investment.
Speaker:I agree, and it's also, so what
Speaker:matters to the business
Speaker:and what are the KPIs?
Speaker:If you, we just bounty about KPI
Speaker:and we don't think about what it
Speaker:means, which is key performance
Speaker:indicators, not every performance
Speaker:indicator.
Speaker:And I feel like people start to
Speaker:measure too many things, one,
Speaker:because they're like, oh, why is
Speaker:that? So, oh we better answer that
Speaker:this way. Oh, let's look at this.
Speaker:And then suddenly you're looking at
Speaker:seven different metrics.
Speaker:Whereas really you just need to look
Speaker:at the one. And then when you go,
Speaker:oh, that's going wrong, you can go
Speaker:and like investigate and figure out
Speaker:what's happening. And that's when
Speaker:you look at others, but you don't
Speaker:need to at every week.
Speaker:So that's, and then also I
Speaker:think sometimes people, and I'm
Speaker:definitely guilty of this myself of
Speaker:like, it's hard to really believe
Speaker:that less is more.
Speaker:And if I only look at two things or
Speaker:only provide one idea that's
Speaker:really good, was that good enough
Speaker:or should I provide 10?
Speaker:And so if like your BDR
Speaker:is coming in, what does
Speaker:success look like for them?
Speaker:They should have one leading
Speaker:indicator, one lagging
Speaker:indicator.
Speaker:And then they really know what their
Speaker:job is.
Speaker:So depending on what your outbound
Speaker:is and what your motion is
Speaker:that works for you, if dials
Speaker:still matter, like how many connects
Speaker:are they making a day so you know
Speaker:they're picking up the phone.
Speaker:If you're like, it's not always
Speaker:connects anymore because some
Speaker:industries people will not pick up
Speaker:the phones. So let's assume they
Speaker:still do.
Speaker:And then the other one is
Speaker:not how many meetings are they,
Speaker:well, I mean, early days, how many
Speaker:meeting are they booking?
Speaker:Cause you have some way you
Speaker:need some momentum, but
Speaker:fundamentally how many are actually
Speaker:making it to being sat
Speaker:and converted.
Speaker:So the quality and that's it.
Speaker:And then they either they're doing
Speaker:that or they're not. So they're
Speaker:performing or they've hit their ramp
Speaker:or they haven't, they stay, they
Speaker:go. And not all this other stuff.
Speaker:So the other one I was thinking
Speaker:about was, there's always this
Speaker:question of when do you start taking
Speaker:security seriously and start
Speaker:doing ISO for B2B enterprise
Speaker:companies and so on.
Speaker:And it sometimes depends on your
Speaker:target audience that you're going
Speaker:after and how important that is for
Speaker:your customers obviously.
Speaker:But I think this is a classic one
Speaker:where deferring it as
Speaker:much as you possibly can, where
Speaker:it doesn't impact the deals
Speaker:themselves in terms of getting them
Speaker:done. And you can make certain
Speaker:future commitments in your contracts
Speaker:and look.
Speaker:We are thinking about ISO, it'll be
Speaker:done in the future.
Speaker:You can do that longer than you
Speaker:think, to be honest, in my view.
Speaker:I'm probably the other way where
Speaker:when it's small, it's less of
Speaker:a problem. When you're big, it's a
Speaker:bigger problem.
Speaker:And if you start with
Speaker:some of it, I guess also because I'm
Speaker:now in cyber, so of course we have
Speaker:to do it. Absolutely everybody wants
Speaker:to see the certificates all the
Speaker:time. But before selling into
Speaker:enterprise as well, if
Speaker:you don't have your SOC 2 or your
Speaker:ISO 27001, you just have to share
Speaker:this massive document
Speaker:every single time, because an
Speaker:enterprise isn't gonna do it
Speaker:without. And a lot of that that
Speaker:you're in the document sharing is
Speaker:kind of stuff you have to do anyhow
Speaker:for them.
Speaker:And so I'm the other way, because
Speaker:particularly now that there are
Speaker:tools that help you.
Speaker:So we used Vanta at peak,
Speaker:we're using Drata at Matomic.
Speaker:And then there's another one that I
Speaker:just heard about the other day.
Speaker:Delve maybe, I'm making it up.
Speaker:Yeah, is this for DDQs or for
Speaker:ISO?
Speaker:It's for all of it apparently,
Speaker:ISO SOC 2 and HIPAA.
Speaker:And they say they can do it in
Speaker:something like 24 hours for you, but
Speaker:it's a tech. Obviously you have to
Speaker:put in the rest of it.
Speaker:I guess it depends on what stage
Speaker:you're talking about and who you
Speaker:sell to. But if you're selling to
Speaker:enterprise, you're gonna have to
Speaker:show that you know what you're
Speaker:taking about and you're not your
Speaker:guardians of their data anyhow.
Speaker:It's actually fascinating, this is a
Speaker:bit of a digression now, but I'm
Speaker:heavily involved in DDQs right now
Speaker:myself.
Speaker:So we're just prior to our Series B
Speaker:and we're in a target
Speaker:audience of law firms
Speaker:that are very focused on
Speaker:security obviously and
Speaker:confidentiality and these sorts of
Speaker:things.
Speaker:80% of customers that come
Speaker:through now.
Speaker:Are all, we're asking
Speaker:formal DDQ responses
Speaker:that are required that are massive
Speaker:in size.
Speaker:So we are super hot right now
Speaker:to make this as friction-free as
Speaker:humanly possible for the sales team.
Speaker:We're using a product called
Speaker:Platformed and Platform is
Speaker:AI product whereby it
Speaker:ingests your documentation and
Speaker:will automatically take the format
Speaker:that's been given to it.
Speaker:Respond into that formatted template
Speaker:that's been provided to you from the
Speaker:customer and try to automate as much
Speaker:as humanly possible.
Speaker:The fascinating bit is
Speaker:we probably have 60%
Speaker:auto answers with no edits required
Speaker:by a human being and 60%
Speaker:in my opinion is very, very
Speaker:low. I don't quite understand why
Speaker:that's the case because the fact of
Speaker:the matter is every question we get
Speaker:that we don't, we haven't previously
Speaker:answered that we answer as a net new
Speaker:manually obviously goes back into
Speaker:the AI whereby it knows it at that
Speaker:point. And for some reason.
Speaker:The percentage increase that we're
Speaker:seeing is just incredibly slow, like
Speaker:50% to 51 to 52 over
Speaker:time. It's just like this has to be
Speaker:at 80 as soon as possible because we
Speaker:have a ton of DDQs upcoming this
Speaker:quarter and if we don't get ahead of
Speaker:this right now, we're gonna have to
Speaker:have people do all sorts of crazy
Speaker:manual labor right now to get these
Speaker:responses in place.
Speaker:So we're now competitively
Speaker:looking at other products that are
Speaker:not platformed but other.
Speaker:AI vendors that do this to see what
Speaker:the actual difference is in terms of
Speaker:the speed, turnaround, quality of
Speaker:the answers and the AI, the auto
Speaker:answer with no edit kind of
Speaker:percentage and we have a bit of a
Speaker:sample set that we're using.
Speaker:So I'm quite fascinated to see what
Speaker:the results gonna be.
Speaker:The technology is moving so quickly.
Speaker:I'd be interested to hear.
Speaker:I've just shared the link for you
Speaker:for Delve.
Speaker:Do you have any examples of stuff
Speaker:that you would have done earlier in
Speaker:terms of kind of back office
Speaker:enablement to get ahead of things?
Speaker:Any mistakes that you think you've
Speaker:made in the past where if you've
Speaker:gotten to it earlier, it would have
Speaker:been a wiser course of action as
Speaker:opposed to punting and deferring.
Speaker:Nothing is immediately coming to
Speaker:mind. Like I think, and also the
Speaker:world is so different now
Speaker:with AI and the ability to
Speaker:automate in a way that we didn't use
Speaker:to.
Speaker:So rather than things
Speaker:that I wish we had done differently
Speaker:is as soon as you start to do
Speaker:something repetitively,
Speaker:I've asked the team to, you know, is
Speaker:there a solution for this?
Speaker:So how do we automate invoicing?
Speaker:How do we automated cache
Speaker:collection?
Speaker:How do automate our
Speaker:data? Collection for HubSpot.
Speaker:Because agents and AI is so
Speaker:smart now, how can
Speaker:we use that for a lot of
Speaker:the busy work that we used to have,
Speaker:but it's just new.
Speaker:So if I look back at my old career,
Speaker:it's so different that it's almost
Speaker:like irrelevant.
Speaker:What do you think of this?
Speaker:When you go through organizational
Speaker:design and your organizational
Speaker:design works to a certain point and
Speaker:they need to reorg and
Speaker:with the reorg as you're getting
Speaker:larger in size, the problems
Speaker:change somewhat.
Speaker:You're trying to re-org to ensure
Speaker:that it's suitable for the next time
Speaker:period of the company, but companies
Speaker:seem to get trapped in this loop of
Speaker:like, it seems to happen faster
Speaker:than it should in some respects in
Speaker:terms of like we've done a reorg,
Speaker:now 12 months later we need to do
Speaker:another reorg to kind of re-sort
Speaker:things because things aren't working
Speaker:for whatever reason.
Speaker:Do you have any kind of thoughts on
Speaker:that and maybe any kind tips in
Speaker:terms of how to think about
Speaker:organizational design to make them
Speaker:as durable as possible?
Speaker:I guess part of the question is
Speaker:should it be durable?
Speaker:Like particularly in a scale up,
Speaker:like if you're 50% or
Speaker:100% bigger than you were a year
Speaker:ago, it probably makes sense to do a
Speaker:redesign.
Speaker:And then also if you look at the big
Speaker:companies, they do it every single
Speaker:year and they're not even growing
Speaker:anymore.
Speaker:I think some of it is just to keep
Speaker:employees, like it's a way of
Speaker:getting some level of advancement
Speaker:and keeping people who have been
Speaker:there for ages interested still,
Speaker:every one to two years that people
Speaker:have brand new jobs again.
Speaker:So I think that there's also just
Speaker:some natural tensions in businesses
Speaker:where there isn't one solution,
Speaker:which is why people swing back and
Speaker:forth.
Speaker:So regional versus global,
Speaker:you get that a lot.
Speaker:Like should you have global
Speaker:functions and then regional leaders,
Speaker:or should all of the power be in the
Speaker:regions and a very light
Speaker:coordination from global?
Speaker:And you see companies
Speaker:pendulum back and fourth between
Speaker:those two and then.
Speaker:Culture-wise, some seem to land more
Speaker:in one way or the other or just a
Speaker:complexity thing.
Speaker:So that's one where
Speaker:you see businesses going back and
Speaker:forth.
Speaker:The other one is,
Speaker:is it better to do pods
Speaker:of mixed teams that actually
Speaker:work together who is
Speaker:always the dotted line versus the
Speaker:straight line. So in development,
Speaker:should you have your
Speaker:multidisciplinary pod with one
Speaker:leader? Or should everybody manage
Speaker:up to their functional leaders
Speaker:and then be a dotted line
Speaker:into their pod?
Speaker:And again, I've seen both work and
Speaker:I've see people flip back and forth
Speaker:loads, but ultimately people's
Speaker:day-to-day jobs don't change.
Speaker:They're still working with the same
Speaker:people, they're still solving the
Speaker:same problems, it's just who do they
Speaker:have their one-to ones with?
Speaker:And sometimes I think we are overly
Speaker:concerned about things.
Speaker:It matters because it matters
Speaker:where managers go, but individuals
Speaker:who do the job every day, it doesn't
Speaker:really matter to them.
Speaker:If they're sitting in an engineering
Speaker:pod versus sitting in a whatever
Speaker:stupid name pod, because they all
Speaker:come up with their stupid names,
Speaker:Atlantis pod.
Speaker:Last question, Oshrina talked about
Speaker:personal resilience and her
Speaker:framework of five types of
Speaker:personal resilience.
Speaker:And I'll just read these out just
Speaker:to refresh our memories and a bit of
Speaker:commentary from you in terms of what
Speaker:you make of these.
Speaker:But number one, optimistic
Speaker:resilience, the ability to reframe
Speaker:difficult situations and find
Speaker:something positive in them.
Speaker:Stoic resilience, the mental
Speaker:discipline to accept reality
Speaker:and take action without overthinking
Speaker:or unnecessary suffering.
Speaker:Number three, pragmatic resilience,
Speaker:the wisdom to choose your battles,
Speaker:protect your energy and walk away
Speaker:from situations that don't serve
Speaker:you.
Speaker:Number four, active resilience, the
Speaker:act of seeking support,
Speaker:self-advocating and using your
Speaker:network rather than struggling in
Speaker:isolation.
Speaker:And the last one, existential
Speaker:resilience, the ability to zoom
Speaker:out, see the bigger picture and
Speaker:recognize that most problems are
Speaker:temporary and not life-defining.
Speaker:What do you make of those five and
Speaker:does Bethany have a kind of
Speaker:a stacked ranked?
Speaker:Set of layers here that she uses.
Speaker:Part of what you need to do is
Speaker:understand the situation you're in.
Speaker:And then I think I just intuitively
Speaker:will apply one
Speaker:of those to the situation.
Speaker:Actually, what's interesting for me
Speaker:is they're all very much
Speaker:as an individual,
Speaker:how you can soothe
Speaker:yourself in effect.
Speaker:You know, like reframing it in some
Speaker:way or they're versions
Speaker:of reframed, aren't they?
Speaker:So it's either reframin' to be
Speaker:positive, reframing it.
Speaker:My problem, reframing,
Speaker:you know, understanding that I can't
Speaker:solve it, understanding that it's
Speaker:not such a big deal.
Speaker:But one of the concepts that I
Speaker:really like and
Speaker:came across, actually, if I ever
Speaker:met a therapist a couple of years
Speaker:ago, is the idea
Speaker:of like nervous system regulation.
Speaker:And fundamentally, what you're
Speaker:trying to do is get your nervous
Speaker:system to be regulated again.
Speaker:And all of these are around
Speaker:self-regulation.
Speaker:But sometimes,
Speaker:it's impossible to self-regulate.
Speaker:You're in a situation where it's
Speaker:just beyond your ability to self
Speaker:soothe.
Speaker:And then it's going out
Speaker:into needing somebody
Speaker:else to help co-regulation.
Speaker:Children do this all the time.
Speaker:So they hurt themselves, they
Speaker:run to their parents, and
Speaker:through holding them, talking to
Speaker:them, soothing them, they can calm
Speaker:down and they're not able to self
Speaker:regulate themselves.
Speaker:And so the ability to
Speaker:try these techniques, and if I'm
Speaker:still not being able to regulate,
Speaker:I'll notice that I'm making contact
Speaker:with others. And I think that's also
Speaker:why some people end
Speaker:up being the ones that everybody
Speaker:goes to, is because they're quite
Speaker:good at, we intuitively notice
Speaker:who's well regulated.
Speaker:And generally, if somebody has a
Speaker:very regulated nervous system,
Speaker:they can help you get your nervous
Speaker:system regulated again.
Speaker:So.
Speaker:I guess for me, the advice is just
Speaker:if these things aren't working, or
Speaker:you're finding that it's impossible
Speaker:to get yourself back down,
Speaker:sometimes you need to look
Speaker:externally as well.
Speaker:So out of the five, do you have one
Speaker:that you lean on particularly?
Speaker:I think I'm probably the last one of
Speaker:like, in the big picture,
Speaker:does this matter zooming out?
Speaker:Will I remember this in a
Speaker:year's time?
Speaker:When's the last time I did something
Speaker:that I can even remember?
Speaker:I can remember sometimes the
Speaker:freak out of feeling horrible,
Speaker:but I can't even remember what the
Speaker:event was anymore.
Speaker:And so it's like, this is where
Speaker:we're at, and this is not a big
Speaker:deal. That's probably my number
Speaker:one go to.
Speaker:I mean, I can't remember what I ate
Speaker:for breakfast three days ago, so
Speaker:this is gonna be
Speaker:long gone in a month, let
Speaker:alone in a year.
Speaker:All right, let's wrap up here, and
Speaker:we will move on to our conversation
Speaker:with Oshrina.
Speaker:You know, my first story comes from
Speaker:a book called Pollyanna by
Speaker:Eleanor Porter.
Speaker:And I read it when I was probably 10
Speaker:years old.
Speaker:And it was about a small orphan
Speaker:who always
Speaker:remained this relentlessly cheerful
Speaker:thanks to a game that she invented
Speaker:called Glad Game.
Speaker:The core of it was kind of about
Speaker:something to be glad about
Speaker:in every situation, no matter how
Speaker:bleak that situation was.
Speaker:And, you know, for Christmas, for
Speaker:example, she got a crutch because
Speaker:that was the only thing, if I
Speaker:remember correctly, that was left in
Speaker:this kind of charity that
Speaker:her dad was involved.
Speaker:And instead of being really upset,
Speaker:she thought, well, you now, I've
Speaker:got a crouch. Well, at least I don't
Speaker:need to use it.
Speaker:At least I didn't have a broken leg.
Speaker:Then I don't really remember the
Speaker:rest of the book, but at 10 years
Speaker:old, this game kind of stuck with
Speaker:me. As you're a kid, you kind of go
Speaker:about your day and you play the
Speaker:situations and you're in your hand,
Speaker:probably shows my age.
Speaker:I didn't play computer games back
Speaker:then. And I think I started
Speaker:applying this to my daily lives,
Speaker:kind of trying to find situations
Speaker:that I shouldn't be happy about and
Speaker:take myself out of this
Speaker:unhappiness by training
Speaker:my mind to kind of spot
Speaker:opportunities in
Speaker:difficult moments.
Speaker:So, you know, like it's not about
Speaker:denying any sort of hardship.
Speaker:It's about acknowledging the
Speaker:situation that you're in.
Speaker:And asking at the same time, what
Speaker:can I be glad about?
Speaker:So this one I called optimistic
Speaker:resilience.
Speaker:You know, you got to accept it, make
Speaker:the best of it.
Speaker:It's kind of cognitive reframing
Speaker:that helps you get out of
Speaker:your mind, kind of like swiveling
Speaker:and try to feel sorry for yourself.
Speaker:The second type of the resilience
Speaker:is from another book that I read
Speaker:when I was a kid.
Speaker:I was teenager.
Speaker:By then I went to the library, found
Speaker:this book on the shelf by Marcus
Speaker:Aurelius.
Speaker:That now I think every set of
Speaker:founder knows is the meditations.
Speaker:And I'm like, guys, like I was there
Speaker:first. Like I read it when I was 13
Speaker:or 14.
Speaker:The funny thing is that I picked it
Speaker:up and I was like probably at that
Speaker:point in my like emo goth years.
Speaker:I picked up and I couldn't find it
Speaker:in the bookshop.
Speaker:So I ended up photocopying that
Speaker:book cover to cover and
Speaker:I still have it at home.
Speaker:But there was actually one quote
Speaker:that really stuck with me.
Speaker:And it said, if a cucumber is
Speaker:bitter, throw it away.
Speaker:If there are brambles on the path,
Speaker:turn aside.
Speaker:Don't go on to say, why were things
Speaker:this sort of brought into the world?
Speaker:And the key point here
Speaker:is if something is really
Speaker:unpleasant for you, you've got to
Speaker:deal with it simply.
Speaker:Don't add this extra suffering
Speaker:by dwelling on why it exists.
Speaker:And you're gifted with shaping
Speaker:your response.
Speaker:So for example, if something happens
Speaker:in your organization overnight
Speaker:and as an operations leader, you're
Speaker:in the position to
Speaker:somehow turn it over.
Speaker:You don't have the time to dwell on
Speaker:it. You need to do something about
Speaker:it. And I think this, again, like
Speaker:this is the quote that
Speaker:really stayed with me and I
Speaker:think really shaped who I am today.
Speaker:I don't remember any other quote
Speaker:from that book.
Speaker:As you go through life, I think as
Speaker:any person, you will remember the
Speaker:moments or the sentences or the
Speaker:words or the people that really
Speaker:shaped you.
Speaker:So yeah, so this is, I guess, like a
Speaker:stoic resilience, like accept,
Speaker:move on, all good.
Speaker:Then I'm Lithuanian
Speaker:and we have a lot of nice
Speaker:proverbs in Lithuanian, like nice
Speaker:sayings.
Speaker:It says and it
Speaker:means if they give,
Speaker:take, if they hit, run.
Speaker:And it's a little bit of a
Speaker:survivalist.
Speaker:Know when you need to lean
Speaker:in and know
Speaker:when to disengage.
Speaker:Kind of pick your own battles.
Speaker:So I call this pragmatic resilience,
Speaker:like situational awareness.
Speaker:Just protect your energy.
Speaker:If this is not your battle,
Speaker:it's fine, move on.
Speaker:You don't need to continue going at
Speaker:it. So we have
Speaker:positive optimistic resilience,
Speaker:which is reframing.
Speaker:Then we have don't
Speaker:sweat the small stuff.
Speaker:What were you calling it, the second
Speaker:one?
Speaker:Stoic resilience, of course, cause
Speaker:stoicism, yeah.
Speaker:And now the third was,
Speaker:I'm trying to think of like, what's
Speaker:another way of pragmatic,
Speaker:like self-preservation.
Speaker:So one of the things that I really
Speaker:like is from the
Speaker:alcoholic anonymous's
Speaker:prayer, which isn't actually a
Speaker:prayer. It seems like it should be
Speaker:coming from the Bible, which is
Speaker:like the strength to change
Speaker:the things I can,
Speaker:accept the things that I can't and
Speaker:the wisdom to tell the difference.
Speaker:And that seems to be number three.
Speaker:Look at reality and accept reality
Speaker:or change reality if you can change
Speaker:it. But do the right one with
Speaker:the right thing.
Speaker:Exactly. I think it's also a
Speaker:combination of a stoic and
Speaker:pragmatic.
Speaker:Yeah, just take it,
Speaker:take what you get and move on.
Speaker:And if it's too hard to change
Speaker:something, you don't have
Speaker:to, if it not your battle to
Speaker:run.
Speaker:So yeah, I love your
Speaker:quote. We'll need to find that
Speaker:specific one.
Speaker:Broadly that, it sounds much nicer.
Speaker:And then what are the last two?
Speaker:The last one is, I guess
Speaker:like it's an English saying, you
Speaker:don't ask, you don't get.
Speaker:Because in operations,
Speaker:we're always, we always think
Speaker:that we're lone soldiers in the
Speaker:fields. And yes, we are
Speaker:post-functional and yes, we do
Speaker:things together with the team, but
Speaker:we don't have to
Speaker:fight the fight alone.
Speaker:Yes, operations is lonely, but you
Speaker:also have the rest of the company at
Speaker:your fingertips.
Speaker:You have the community at your
Speaker:finger tips. You have your network
Speaker:at your fingers tips, if you want
Speaker:to. So it's, you know, the you don't
Speaker:ask, you don't get. And I think I
Speaker:would call it.
Speaker:Resilience is like, you know, be
Speaker:really constructed by the action
Speaker:that you want to take.
Speaker:Self-advocate for yourself.
Speaker:You know, you don't need to suffer
Speaker:in silence.
Speaker:There are so many resources that
Speaker:you can count on.
Speaker:So I think as operations leaders, we
Speaker:just need to normalize seeking for
Speaker:help. And I will advertise
Speaker:my own Community Operations Nation
Speaker:where folks can come and
Speaker:find others in the same
Speaker:challenges.
Speaker:If you don't ask, you will
Speaker:definitely not get anything from
Speaker:anyone. So yes, agency
Speaker:and active resilience.
Speaker:And then the last one, like if all
Speaker:else fails, I feel like I have been
Speaker:dipping into this one a little bit
Speaker:too often lately,
Speaker:is completely zooming out the
Speaker:existential resilience
Speaker:and just visualizing your
Speaker:place in the universe.
Speaker:And I have used this so many times
Speaker:in my previous companies when things
Speaker:go wrong. And I think for me, I'm
Speaker:okay. I have built up my resilience,
Speaker:but then I look at my team who are
Speaker:maybe slightly more junior and
Speaker:they're panicking that, you know,
Speaker:out of a sudden, instead of
Speaker:BCCing everyone, they CCCed everyone
Speaker:in or something, something
Speaker:ridiculous.
Speaker:And it doesn't have to
Speaker:be the end of the world.
Speaker:So I think if you, at this
Speaker:point, tell your team
Speaker:that you're not running a
Speaker:nuclear plant, you're operating
Speaker:children's hospital, and
Speaker:there will be cases where risks
Speaker:are going to be high.
Speaker:So maybe this is not going to work
Speaker:in those instances, but just
Speaker:zooming out and reframing
Speaker:your problem and asking yourself,
Speaker:what is the real consequence here
Speaker:in this grand scheme of things,
Speaker:which really allows you to kind of
Speaker:shrink the perceived weight,
Speaker:like the perceived challenge,
Speaker:and at the same time,
Speaker:create the mental space for
Speaker:solutions.
Speaker:Because again, I have been in so
Speaker:many companies and I think
Speaker:operations teams are normally the
Speaker:level-headed ones.
Speaker:And then...
Speaker:You know, sometimes other team
Speaker:members, they freak out and they're
Speaker:like, oh my God, like, what will we
Speaker:do now that we have failed SYZ?
Speaker:It's always down to operations to
Speaker:resolve it.
Speaker:And I think it's always better to
Speaker:do it when you are zoomed out and
Speaker:this, you know, more existential,
Speaker:more like, okay, this is a blip in
Speaker:the universe.
Speaker:Two billion years from now, nobody
Speaker:will care.
Speaker:It's easier to find flow state that
Speaker:way when you're relaxed, even if
Speaker:it's a crisis for
Speaker:others. They're like, yeah, it's the
Speaker:challenge.
Speaker:It's a nice puzzle to solve.
Speaker:It'll be okay.
Speaker:The other thought that I was having
Speaker:was around this question of imposter
Speaker:syndrome.
Speaker:How do you manage that as an
Speaker:operator?
Speaker:I think, first of all, imposter
Speaker:syndrome is important
Speaker:to have, a little bit of it.
Speaker:Not a whole lot of it, because
Speaker:that will send you spinning in
Speaker:the wrong direction.
Speaker:But I do think that
Speaker:a little tinge of imposter syndrome
Speaker:is what keeps us sane, what keeps
Speaker:aspiring to
Speaker:reach more, to learn.
Speaker:Because we think every so often that
Speaker:we're not just there yet, like we're
Speaker:no enough, but...
Speaker:A lot of the times, it's been
Speaker:out of control.
Speaker:I had a very
Speaker:interesting experience with
Speaker:imposter syndrome after my
Speaker:first dialing job.
Speaker:And I think a lot of operations
Speaker:leaders have that one
Speaker:place of work where they
Speaker:started maybe a little earlier on,
Speaker:and then they have developed into
Speaker:leadership position.
Speaker:That's exactly what happened to me
Speaker:at a company that I
Speaker:was, I guess I grew up as an
Speaker:operations leader.
Speaker:That company was called Y Plan.
Speaker:And...
Speaker:What happened there in the end,
Speaker:Y Plan got sold to Time
Speaker:Out. I was made redundant in the
Speaker:process and I needed to find another
Speaker:role.
Speaker:And because it was my first
Speaker:venture into operations at that
Speaker:time, that was about seven years
Speaker:ago, I didn't really know anyone
Speaker:else who held a title
Speaker:head of operations, operations
Speaker:director, COO.
Speaker:I had a very small network
Speaker:and that network was mainly...
Speaker:Like a sales marketing product,
Speaker:engineers. Because seven years ago
Speaker:in London, if you went to
Speaker:an event, you would normally
Speaker:meet everyone else but
Speaker:operations people.
Speaker:And that was also one
Speaker:of the reasons why me
Speaker:and my co-founders started
Speaker:Operations Nation.
Speaker:But about a year before,
Speaker:I was in a really dire situation
Speaker:where I found a
Speaker:job, I got an offer.
Speaker:At an amazing company, it was called
Speaker:City Pantry, now Just Eat For
Speaker:Business.
Speaker:And I had
Speaker:a gut feeling that I shouldn't
Speaker:accept it.
Speaker:But I did.
Speaker:I think this was
Speaker:the lowest point of my career
Speaker:because I couldn't
Speaker:perform to the best of my ability.
Speaker:And what happened, I went from
Speaker:digital marketplace, so
Speaker:from a marketplace to another
Speaker:marketplace.
Speaker:But the second marketplace, City
Speaker:Pentry, it...
Speaker:Delivering hot food at rush
Speaker:hour from point A to point B
Speaker:in bulk.
Speaker:So it was catering lunches
Speaker:for businesses.
Speaker:And I really struggled
Speaker:to connect with
Speaker:the purpose of my role, which was
Speaker:ultimately, you know, shaving off
Speaker:pennies really from the delivery
Speaker:costs.
Speaker:The team was lovely.
Speaker:The leadership team was great,
Speaker:although not similar
Speaker:to the leadership team that the team
Speaker:that I was at before.
Speaker:Something didn't click.
Speaker:And the reason why I'm telling you
Speaker:about this in the context of
Speaker:imposter syndrome is that it put
Speaker:me to the bottom of it.
Speaker:I started questioning myself whether
Speaker:I am destined for operations
Speaker:in general.
Speaker:I started question myself
Speaker:whether I have any skills that I
Speaker:thought I was excelling at.
Speaker:It was a really bad place.
Speaker:And it came from
Speaker:me not trusting my gut feeling.
Speaker:But I think not everything in life
Speaker:is meant to work.
Speaker:And I think it was not my place
Speaker:to be. So I left
Speaker:City Pantry quite quickly.
Speaker:And afterwards, I have thrived in
Speaker:any other role that I have taken
Speaker:on.
Speaker:But I think for
Speaker:operations leaders, it's very easy
Speaker:to start
Speaker:feeling this weight
Speaker:of imposter syndrome when you're
Speaker:in the wrong situation and at
Speaker:the wrong place.
Speaker:Because our roles,
Speaker:Bethany, like you say, are
Speaker:to do everything else
Speaker:that nobody else is doing.
Speaker:And you need to be extremely
Speaker:resourceful and you need have
Speaker:that resilience.
Speaker:And sometimes it's just
Speaker:not going to be
Speaker:the case because you
Speaker:are not going to have either certain
Speaker:skills or interests.
Speaker:And it's absolutely fine.
Speaker:For you to, going back to my
Speaker:personal principles, pick your
Speaker:battle.
Speaker:You don't feel good in this.
Speaker:It's fine to walk away.
Speaker:And I think, again, for operations
Speaker:leaders, it's very important to
Speaker:understand exactly what your
Speaker:skillset is.
Speaker:Because across, I don't even
Speaker:know how many things we can be
Speaker:taking care of.
Speaker:From finance, to legal, to
Speaker:compliance, to HR, to people ops,
Speaker:to customer operations,
Speaker:to leading leadership teams.
Speaker:Like this glue is multifunctional
Speaker:and you don't have to excel at
Speaker:every single piece of it.
Speaker:So I think understanding exactly
Speaker:where you're best and
Speaker:where you stand.
Speaker:Really helps you control that
Speaker:imposter syndrome.
Speaker:So if I go on the
Speaker:other side of imposter syndrome,
Speaker:like there was something that was
Speaker:interesting, what you said around
Speaker:you didn't trust your
Speaker:gut in retrospect.
Speaker:And also to be aware
Speaker:of what you're good at and what you
Speaker:are not good at. There's actually,
Speaker:there's something else in there
Speaker:which is not just what you good at,
Speaker:but what you enjoy.
Speaker:Because I think as operations
Speaker:professionals, we're good a lots of
Speaker:things. But that doesn't mean that
Speaker:we should do them, which
Speaker:listening to your gut or your
Speaker:heart comes into play.
Speaker:And it's something that I think it
Speaker:takes experience to start to
Speaker:trust yourself.
Speaker:Do you have any, in retrospect,
Speaker:ways that you now trust your
Speaker:gut more than you used to or
Speaker:hints for people who are learning to
Speaker:trust their...
Speaker:I'm not sure that I do.
Speaker:I think it definitely comes with
Speaker:experience
Speaker:and ability to
Speaker:question yourself
Speaker:and daring to question others.
Speaker:So I think especially earlier in
Speaker:your career when you're
Speaker:interviewing, you forget that
Speaker:you're also interviewing the company
Speaker:that you are going to be working
Speaker:for, that you can,
Speaker:you know, in a way grill them.
Speaker:In a very similar way that they're
Speaker:asking questions of you.
Speaker:But I think for me, it only came
Speaker:with experience, this, you know,
Speaker:daring to really dig a little bit
Speaker:deeper.
Speaker:And I think when you're
Speaker:applying for a leadership position,
Speaker:that also gives you a little more
Speaker:permission or at least you
Speaker:feel a little more permission to ask
Speaker:many, many more questions.
Speaker:I think one of the principles that
Speaker:I've applied time and time
Speaker:again that really helped me is the
Speaker:five whys principle.
Speaker:Ask why five times.
Speaker:Ask the other person why
Speaker:five times, but also ask that
Speaker:of yourself.
Speaker:Because I think we're always
Speaker:preconditioned to come
Speaker:up with solutions instead
Speaker:of seeing the real problem and
Speaker:asking why five time
Speaker:in a row really
Speaker:enables you to get to the core
Speaker:situation that you're dealing with.
Speaker:So that's probably my
Speaker:best answer.
Speaker:I'm curious about me on the imposter
Speaker:syndrome front.
Speaker:I don't know if you've spoken about
Speaker:this specifically, but do you
Speaker:recognize any of that to yourself?
Speaker:Yeah, definitely.
Speaker:But I find for me,
Speaker:it comes when I'm not feeling
Speaker:good.
Speaker:So if I'm feeling unstable in
Speaker:a situation, I'll
Speaker:take too much responsibility.
Speaker:So it won't even just be like
Speaker:areas where I'm doing a
Speaker:good job. There'll be other people's
Speaker:areas where they're not doing a job
Speaker:and then I'll it as my
Speaker:responsibility for like
Speaker:not going in and saving them
Speaker:from their bad job.
Speaker:Or having hired them in the first
Speaker:place or having not gotten rid of
Speaker:them in time, even if they don't
Speaker:report to me.
Speaker:So like when I'm not in a good
Speaker:place, I find reasons
Speaker:to explain to myself why I'm shit
Speaker:versus when I am in a
Speaker:place, I can see
Speaker:the stories that I'm telling myself.
Speaker:But it can be really hard to
Speaker:identify that I
Speaker:am doing that if I'm feeling good.
Speaker:So it needs to be a bit of a check
Speaker:in first of am I in
Speaker:a a good or not, rather than.
Speaker:And then just like ignoring the
Speaker:self criticism that comes in.
Speaker:One of the things that really
Speaker:helped me actually, it was at
Speaker:the end of my plan.
Speaker:Actually, no, it was in the middle
Speaker:of my first company and
Speaker:my boss was leaving who had
Speaker:a title of EP operations and he
Speaker:handed over his job to
Speaker:me and left.
Speaker:And he said, you're going to be
Speaker:doing your job and also my job on
Speaker:top and you're great and yet we'll
Speaker:have absolutely no problem with it.
Speaker:And I was freaking out.
Speaker:And he was a guy that I really
Speaker:looked up to and.
Speaker:We had a kind of hard to hard on
Speaker:his last day.
Speaker:And he said, every time that
Speaker:he goes into leadership meeting,
Speaker:he's not sure of himself.
Speaker:Like, he is not sure what he's going
Speaker:to say.
Speaker:He doubts himself all
Speaker:the time. And for me,
Speaker:who was just embarking to
Speaker:leadership position in my
Speaker:first company, these were gold
Speaker:words to hear from
Speaker:a man who was, you know, a
Speaker:decade older than me.
Speaker:He has just admitted to me
Speaker:that he is as scared.
Speaker:Sometimes as I am.
Speaker:And every time I find
Speaker:myself fearful of a situation
Speaker:or I start experiencing,
Speaker:you know, that imposter syndrome
Speaker:pretty hard, I think
Speaker:of him and I'll
Speaker:look around into the
Speaker:room and I think, well, every single
Speaker:person here is probably
Speaker:experiencing exactly the same thing.
Speaker:And that really calms me down.
Speaker:So it's like, it's a little bit on
Speaker:the existential resilience.
Speaker:You're not alone.
Speaker:Like we all have our demons
Speaker:to battle. Whether or not we're
Speaker:battling them on the same day
Speaker:doesn't mean that there aren't.
Speaker:Unless you're a sociopath,
Speaker:you're going to be feeling these
Speaker:things.
Speaker:And then sociopaths and narcissists
Speaker:are just so damaged that they've
Speaker:blocked it entirely from it.
Speaker:We have covered so much today.
Speaker:If our listeners can only take
Speaker:one thing away from today's
Speaker:episode, what is it?
Speaker:As an operations leader,
Speaker:put your own oxygen mask
Speaker:first.
Speaker:So you can help
Speaker:your organization to
Speaker:thrive and survive
Speaker:when the
Speaker:shit hits the fan.
Speaker:And there you go. I swear.
Speaker:On that note, I will take my oxygen
Speaker:mask off and we will wrap up the
Speaker:operations room. Thank you for
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Speaker:And if you like what you hear,
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