83. How Storytelling Can Get You What You Want
In this episode we discuss: How storytelling can get you what you want. We are joined by David Pullan, author, speaker, coach, and gold miner.
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- We chat about the following with David Pullan:
- How can leaders use storytelling to make their ideas unforgettable?
- What makes a message stick in people’s minds long after the meeting ends?
- Why do leaders often overlook the importance of how they communicate, not just what they say?
- How can storytelling build trust and psychological safety within teams?
- What practical steps can leaders take to transform everyday communication into moments of influence?
References
- https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-pullan-4b0619a/
- www.thestoryspotters.com
Biography
David Pullan and his wife and business partner, Sarah Jane McKechnie, first met in a rehearsal room over thirty years ago and have been collaborating ever since. From acting alongside Shirley MacLaine, performing for Henry Kissinger, and filming in the former Yugoslavia (with Robert Downey Jr dancing on the table), to cooking a chicken live on stage, their careers have been defined by spotting, shaping and sharing stories in unexpected ways.
Together, through their company The Story Spotters, they draw on their backgrounds as performers, coaches, scriptwriters and hypnotherapists to help clients master the communication moments that matter. Their book, The DNA of Engagement, offers a story-based approach to building trust and influencing change in today’s noisy corporate world.
To learn more about Beth and Brandon or to find out about sponsorship opportunities click here.
Summary
00:14:40 – Why stories matter more than facts
00:17:37 – Meeting people where they are
00:20:23 – How stories help ideas stick
00:23:04 – A leader’s process for shaping communication
00:28:27 – Common mistakes leaders make with storytelling
00:31:07 – Switching gears: the role of vulnerability
00:36:26 – How authenticity shapes perception
00:39:13 – Balancing emotion and logic in leadership stories
00:42:03 – Why psychological safety is essential
This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis:
Podcorn - https://podcorn.com/privacy
Transcript
Hello, and welcome to another
Speaker:episode of the Operations Room, a
Speaker:podcast for COOs.
Speaker:I am Brandon Mincinga, joined by my
Speaker:amazing co-host Bethany Ayers.
Speaker:How are things going, Bethany?
Speaker:Going really well.
Speaker:I'm a little tired just because
Speaker:I'm on now day
Speaker:10 of my
Speaker:CEO. At some point, it'll be
Speaker:like newborn children where you stop
Speaker:counting the days or the weeks and
Speaker:the months and just get into normal
Speaker:time.
Speaker:It'll all blend together at some
Speaker:point, I'm sure.
Speaker:But right now I'm trying to remind
Speaker:myself of just the number
Speaker:of days that I've been here and to
Speaker:give myself a little bit of a break
Speaker:for having not managed
Speaker:to do everything in the first
Speaker:10 days.
Speaker:Transform the organization in 10
Speaker:days, yes.
Speaker:Although on day nine,
Speaker:which was yesterday for, you know,
Speaker:those who are maybe not as new,
Speaker:right, we had our first
Speaker:all hands.
Speaker:So brought the whole team
Speaker:together and
Speaker:I spent all of
Speaker:Wednesday.
Speaker:So the event was on Thursday,
Speaker:figuring out vision,
Speaker:mission, my ambitions
Speaker:for the team and
Speaker:did my first
Speaker:CEO.
Speaker:As not just like CEO
Speaker:here talk, but ever,
Speaker:rather than being the
Speaker:COO to follow the inspirational
Speaker:CEO talk.
Speaker:I was that first talk.
Speaker:You were the inspirational talk for
Speaker:the vision and mission.
Speaker:Yeah, that's amazing.
Speaker:So I spent all
Speaker:day Wednesday working
Speaker:with ChatGPT on
Speaker:what I should talk about and
Speaker:how should it work.
Speaker:People keep talking about Whisper
Speaker:Flow, and I was not convinced that
Speaker:I wanted to use it.
Speaker:And I was like, I can just type
Speaker:fine.
Speaker:But actually, I've been using it and
Speaker:it is so good.
Speaker:Okay, Whisper Float, what is that?
Speaker:It's a dictation tool, but
Speaker:it gets rid of your ums and ahs.
Speaker:It adds in your punctuation, but
Speaker:the thing for using it with
Speaker:ChatGPT that's much better than
Speaker:using the native ChatGpT
Speaker:just talking to it is
Speaker:I've found that it's still a bit
Speaker:glitchy and so sometimes
Speaker:I can talk for a long time and
Speaker:all of it is lost and ChatGpt
Speaker:just hasn't picked it up.
Speaker:But when I use Whisper Flow, it
Speaker:also captures it itself.
Speaker:But I was able to just...
Speaker:Explain everything that I was
Speaker:thinking and what
Speaker:areas should I cover more, what
Speaker:should I cover less, what's the
Speaker:structure.
Speaker:And in the course of the day, we
Speaker:figured out the vision and the
Speaker:mission and the
Speaker:flow, and it just gave me something
Speaker:to work with. And I ended up
Speaker:changing the flow when
Speaker:I started to get involved in the
Speaker:slides myself, but at least it
Speaker:had something as a
Speaker:skeleton that I could work with,
Speaker:and then it was, Okay, actually.
Speaker:These slides are stupid, or
Speaker:this flow would be a bit better.
Speaker:And I ended up with a flow of,
Speaker:where are we today?
Speaker:Where are we going?
Speaker:How are we gonna get there?
Speaker:So I didn't finish working till
Speaker:about 10, 10.30
Speaker:on Wednesday.
Speaker:I wasn't feeling comfortable with
Speaker:the slides overall.
Speaker:It didn't feel great, but I knew
Speaker:the slides were good.
Speaker:I knew that the flow was good, but
Speaker:I didn't necessarily like.
Speaker:Deeply believe all of it myself or
Speaker:hadn't internalized it.
Speaker:Went to sleep, slept really poorly,
Speaker:worrying about the day, thinking
Speaker:about it, processing stuff.
Speaker:Woke up and it's just like,
Speaker:how am I going to do this?
Speaker:I'm so little energy.
Speaker:Got in, did a one-to-one,
Speaker:drank some tea, and then
Speaker:did the presentation.
Speaker:I just have to say, I did an amazing
Speaker:job. It was like
Speaker:some other person talking.
Speaker:Almost like an out of body
Speaker:experience at one point, I'm like,
Speaker:look at this person talk, where are
Speaker:these words coming from?
Speaker:This is amazing.
Speaker:This sounds so good.
Speaker:I would follow this person.
Speaker:Wow, that's okay.
Speaker:How did that happen?
Speaker:Hand of God or something, like it
Speaker:really was just, I
Speaker:did so much better than I actually
Speaker:thought possible and I
Speaker:honestly have no idea how I did
Speaker:that.
Speaker:Wow, yeah, I feel like this is like
Speaker:what we need to impart to our
Speaker:listeners. How do you pull the
Speaker:rabbit out of the hat here?
Speaker:And I'm wondering your structure
Speaker:and flow and what you had
Speaker:preordained the previous night,
Speaker:did you actually mostly use
Speaker:it or how did it play out in terms
Speaker:of the actual usage of the material.
Speaker:I did, but the
Speaker:talk track around all of it was just
Speaker:excellent, and I don't know how.
Speaker:It really was.
Speaker:I talked to my husband about it
Speaker:yesterday, and he said, but you were
Speaker:so in the zone on Wednesday.
Speaker:He was like, you were deeply in it.
Speaker:I knew you'd do a great job, and was
Speaker:like but I didn't feel like I was
Speaker:deeply in it. He's like, no, you are
Speaker:so immersed.
Speaker:You were there, and then I
Speaker:think all of that processing in the
Speaker:night, even though didn't sleep
Speaker:well, like there was a lot of brain
Speaker:going on.
Speaker:It all just came together somehow.
Speaker:I mean, sometimes, I don't
Speaker:know, the level of focus and
Speaker:intensity of your thinking,
Speaker:by definition, will put you in the
Speaker:zone just because you've thought
Speaker:about it so deeply.
Speaker:So the words that are coming out of
Speaker:your mouth, they're very natural
Speaker:because you have tuned in to
Speaker:the exact emotion and
Speaker:feeling and talk track that you've
Speaker:manifested over the course of the
Speaker:previous day.
Speaker:So it worked well.
Speaker:Then the two follow-on talks,
Speaker:one from sales and
Speaker:one from engineering,
Speaker:both went really well as well.
Speaker:It looked like there were a lot of
Speaker:slides, so I thought that might be
Speaker:the whole day.
Speaker:And I'd had a communication
Speaker:workshop built into the agenda, but
Speaker:I honestly didn't think we were
Speaker:going to get to it because once I
Speaker:saw the slides from the other two
Speaker:decks, I was like, it's going to be
Speaker:slightly death by PowerPoint and
Speaker:it's gonna be a long day.
Speaker:But I hadn't seen their final
Speaker:decks. I just thought I had seen
Speaker:their final decks in between.
Speaker:10 o'clock at night and 8
Speaker:a.m. The next morning, both of them
Speaker:had been halved, the number of
Speaker:slides, and were like much tighter
Speaker:and better stories.
Speaker:That's beautiful.
Speaker:And so then we did have time for the
Speaker:communication workshop, but I had
Speaker:nothing planned,
Speaker:because I didn't think we were gonna
Speaker:get to it.
Speaker:And it was half two, people are a
Speaker:bit tired, we'd had lunch and stuff.
Speaker:So I was like, go get your coffees,
Speaker:come back in 15 minutes.
Speaker:And in those 15 minutes, did a bit
Speaker:of a brainstorm with
Speaker:somebody else and came up with
Speaker:what I think is a really good game.
Speaker:Like it worked for our size.
Speaker:You'd have to somehow change it for
Speaker:a larger company.
Speaker:But it was, I think the reason why
Speaker:communication is so poor
Speaker:in businesses is because we don't
Speaker:actually understand what other
Speaker:people want to know, need
Speaker:to know. It's just what we think
Speaker:they want to and need to.
Speaker:And so you end up with either too
Speaker:much information, not enough
Speaker:information in the wrong
Speaker:format. The stuff that matters
Speaker:disappears for all of the fluff that
Speaker:doesn't. And so I was like,
Speaker:why don't we do basically
Speaker:a version of the newlywed game,
Speaker:which learned in the UK is called
Speaker:Mr. And Mrs. So I said, it's going
Speaker:to be the version of the newlywed
Speaker:game. And they all looked at me like
Speaker:they didn't, I didn't know what I
Speaker:was talking about.
Speaker:And I just figured, oh, that's
Speaker:because I'm American and old.
Speaker:And it's just like a TV show that
Speaker:never made it here. And I started to
Speaker:describe it. And they're like, Oh,
Speaker:Mr. And Mrs. Mr. And Mrs.,
Speaker:like, yeah, okay.
Speaker:Learned something new despite being
Speaker:here for 25 years.
Speaker:So what we did is we split up
Speaker:into go to market
Speaker:engineering and the leadership team.
Speaker:And we did three rounds.
Speaker:So the first one was,
Speaker:doesn't matter, go to market.
Speaker:So as a leadership team, we wrote
Speaker:down what are the five things we
Speaker:think go-to-market wants to know
Speaker:about from us, and then
Speaker:engineering wrote one of the five
Speaker:things they think go to-market want
Speaker:to know from them.
Speaker:And then go- to- market wrote two
Speaker:lists, one for
Speaker:the leadership team and one for
Speaker:engineering team.
Speaker:And then we got points on how
Speaker:many of them you got right,
Speaker:and so there's also a competition.
Speaker:And then, we did it three rounds for
Speaker:each team. It was a good laugh,
Speaker:lots of laughing and joking and
Speaker:chat, but also real
Speaker:aha moments of,
Speaker:oh, you don't care about that or
Speaker:more, oh, that's what you
Speaker:want to know about?
Speaker:And so now we have these lists and
Speaker:we can remind ourselves about what
Speaker:it is that each team wants to know.
Speaker:So let me get this straight.
Speaker:So on the fly, within 15 minutes,
Speaker:you had formulated this plot of this
Speaker:game and executed it
Speaker:and it sounds fabulous.
Speaker:You actually got some results.
Speaker:Yeah, that's amazing.
Speaker:Yeah, I'm telling you,
Speaker:God was going through me yesterday.
Speaker:Like, I just...
Speaker:So I had a leadership offsite
Speaker:yesterday, and we have them
Speaker:once every six weeks.
Speaker:So I host and facilitate the
Speaker:session.
Speaker:And I would sort of, not a
Speaker:revelation, but it's more.
Speaker:We reminded myself how best
Speaker:to run these things.
Speaker:So. As always, you try to put
Speaker:a structure in the agenda,
Speaker:pre-reads for core topics whereby
Speaker:the pre-reads are distributed the
Speaker:day before, people have an
Speaker:opportunity to read them, put in
Speaker:their comments, so there's more of a
Speaker:thoughtful set of
Speaker:views that are percolated before we
Speaker:actually enter into the sessions
Speaker:type thing, right?
Speaker:And previously, up until now for
Speaker:these off-sites, I've been fairly
Speaker:sort of rigid with the structure and
Speaker:the agenda and all that.
Speaker:And I can kind of tell with a group,
Speaker:when you're overly prescriptive
Speaker:around what you're talking about,
Speaker:it sometimes creates lifeless
Speaker:conversations.
Speaker:Not what you want in terms of a real
Speaker:chat to get to real outcomes,
Speaker:because there's an organicness
Speaker:that you're removing somehow by
Speaker:keeping this kind of strict agenda,
Speaker:I suppose. On the flip side of that,
Speaker:having no agenda is going to be like
Speaker:a free-for-all talking about
Speaker:whatever, going into crazy rabbit
Speaker:holes forever, essentially, and
Speaker:that's not cool either.
Speaker:So I think this one in particular, I
Speaker:think we came to a really good
Speaker:middle ground between some level
Speaker:like agenda structure to
Speaker:it. But very much pausing
Speaker:when something was either not
Speaker:being discussed and it should be,
Speaker:or we had kind of glossed over
Speaker:something that actually was
Speaker:important and actually going back to
Speaker:it, like flagging it.
Speaker:Like I felt I was more masterminding
Speaker:the day and being active in
Speaker:terms of just thinking about like,
Speaker:what are we talking about?
Speaker:Is this useful?
Speaker:Are we talking to the right things?
Speaker:Am I kind of ensuring that whatever
Speaker:was serviced earlier is being pulled
Speaker:back into the conversation again to
Speaker:actually get to outcomes?
Speaker:So I felt this session was probably
Speaker:the best version of it thus far at
Speaker:this new company.
Speaker:And so was that a
Speaker:letting go of time?
Speaker:Yeah, because our timings definitely
Speaker:were off, but it didn't matter.
Speaker:I think getting just too caught up
Speaker:on all this stuff, like we have to
Speaker:get this done, we have get that
Speaker:block done, this block done to
Speaker:make a day productive, I think
Speaker:defeats the purpose of an offsite
Speaker:because you're there as a group.
Speaker:The energy levels kind of ebb and
Speaker:flow and all that people want out of
Speaker:it really is to align on things that
Speaker:matter and get to outcomes where
Speaker:there's either an action or there's
Speaker:like alignment that we actually
Speaker:agree upon, whatever it is that
Speaker:we're talking about.
Speaker:And I think that's really the
Speaker:intent.
Speaker:I haven't done exactly what you've
Speaker:done, but what I did do at peak
Speaker:was get rid
Speaker:of agenda timings.
Speaker:We had a flow of topics
Speaker:and we knew we had things like
Speaker:lunch,
Speaker:but it wasn't okay.
Speaker:Guessing ahead of time, this is a
Speaker:one-hour conversation, this a
Speaker:45-minute conversation, this is
Speaker:whatever.
Speaker:That worked much better.
Speaker:Then also highlighting the
Speaker:one, two, three things that
Speaker:absolutely have to
Speaker:be addressed.
Speaker:And it's almost like those,
Speaker:you do some of the other
Speaker:topics to build into the big ones.
Speaker:I think that works as long as
Speaker:there's the structure, you know,
Speaker:so it's not a timing structure but
Speaker:it is what you're talking about,
Speaker:like what are we trying to answer
Speaker:today, what are the topics we need
Speaker:to cover, rather than, that
Speaker:keeps it from being free for all.
Speaker:And it also means that you can stop
Speaker:the rabbit holes, you're like, is
Speaker:this relevant to today.
Speaker:So we have got a great topic for
Speaker:today, which is how storytelling can
Speaker:get you what you want.
Speaker:We have an amazing guest for this,
Speaker:which David Pullen.
Speaker:He is an author, a speaker, and a
Speaker:coach for his organization called
Speaker:The Story Spotters, which makes
Speaker:sense.
Speaker:So the first thing that
Speaker:David had spoken about was
Speaker:the narrative and the narrative
Speaker:being this overarching structure or
Speaker:strategic arc that answers three
Speaker:questions, which is, what's your
Speaker:dream, which is the vision or goal.
Speaker:What's your nightmare what could
Speaker:derail us what's the action what
Speaker:we need to get there and
Speaker:that narrative.
Speaker:Structure that i spoke about was one
Speaker:piece the second piece was the
Speaker:stories themselves and stories
Speaker:defined as emotionally resident
Speaker:real life illustrations that make
Speaker:that narrative stick so that
Speaker:definition in mind what
Speaker:do you make of that do you think
Speaker:that's a helpful way to think about
Speaker:narrative story.
Speaker:The first thing that I thought about
Speaker:was the conversation or
Speaker:the talk I did yesterday,
Speaker:you know, that narrative.
Speaker:And I had the dream part,
Speaker:but I did not have the nightmare
Speaker:part at all because
Speaker:I didn't want people thinking about
Speaker:the nightmare parts.
Speaker:So we have the dream parts and the
Speaker:how to get there part.
Speaker:What I started to think is like, do
Speaker:you need to always, in order to have
Speaker:a narrative, maybe to have like
Speaker:a complete narrative or to have some
Speaker:tension if you're looking at it in
Speaker:terms of a story, you need have the
Speaker:negative. But there are times where
Speaker:it's probably not necessary to
Speaker:still land your message.
Speaker:I think there's a time and place for
Speaker:the nightmare or injection.
Speaker:I think the nightmare is quite
Speaker:useful when you're trying to get
Speaker:people to really recognize
Speaker:like what is going on right now in
Speaker:terms of problems that we're having.
Speaker:What you want to start with is, you
Speaker:know, we have a vision for where we
Speaker:want to get to.
Speaker:By the way, we've got some real
Speaker:problems, but we've gotten an action
Speaker:plan to get there.
Speaker:I mean, I think you're, yeah,
Speaker:it is quite a normal narrative arc,
Speaker:I guess, in business.
Speaker:And I do like the fact that a
Speaker:narrative is not synonymous with a
Speaker:story, because I
Speaker:think that is like, a lot
Speaker:of times when people talk about
Speaker:storytelling, they're actually
Speaker:talking about a good narrative,
Speaker:whereas we all just naturally
Speaker:tell stories.
Speaker:And stories is what we remember.
Speaker:And I think almost in a way of
Speaker:relaxing about stories,
Speaker:you'll more of them without even
Speaker:realizing it.
Speaker:In the ops world, all these stories
Speaker:get lost a lot of times.
Speaker:You do like a finance presentation,
Speaker:you talk about the burn multiple,
Speaker:here's CAC payback, and
Speaker:you can tell the audience they have
Speaker:no idea what you're talking about,
Speaker:or they sort of do, but they kind of
Speaker:don't care. Here's a quote from
Speaker:David, which is, there's a
Speaker:story behind the data.
Speaker:Add time, place, character.
Speaker:Never say I'm about to tell you a
Speaker:story. Just tell it.
Speaker:Although, did you realize that he
Speaker:said to us in the interview,
Speaker:I'm about to tell you a story, or
Speaker:let me tell you a story?
Speaker:Oh, did he?
Speaker:He did it like towards the end of
Speaker:the interview and made me
Speaker:laugh.
Speaker:He's breaking his own rule.
Speaker:He was, yeah.
Speaker:I think that's helpful when you're
Speaker:like, okay, so what's my good story
Speaker:about CAC payback that I can tell?
Speaker:You're like huh,
Speaker:where?
Speaker:And then if you can get yourself
Speaker:into a time and a place where you
Speaker:have a story, it will help a
Speaker:lot because I suspect
Speaker:there are topics where you're
Speaker:just scraping the bottom of the
Speaker:barrel of what that story might be.
Speaker:It's almost like a time and effort
Speaker:thing because you, you realize
Speaker:you have something to talk about in
Speaker:the all hands and it's financial
Speaker:related. You got to put together the
Speaker:right charts. Like what are the
Speaker:right trucks we need to do here?
Speaker:What do we want to communicate?
Speaker:Fine. It's like a burn multiple or
Speaker:something like that.
Speaker:And help people understand what that
Speaker:means and why it's meaningful.
Speaker:We don't take the one extra step to
Speaker:think about, okay, if I was to add a
Speaker:story to our burn multiple, what
Speaker:would I actually say?
Speaker:I don't know if I have a story, but
Speaker:I have like a way of fleshing
Speaker:out gross margin, but I don t
Speaker:necessarily have one on the others.
Speaker:For me, gross margin is,
Speaker:is this a time and a place and
Speaker:a character? I'm not sure.
Speaker:Maybe. I can say that
Speaker:my experience both from
Speaker:a company that I worked
Speaker:with and just companies in general
Speaker:that I see in SaaS,
Speaker:everybody believes that
Speaker:they all have a model where gross
Speaker:margin will magically happen at
Speaker:scale. And then you grow
Speaker:and gross margin doesn't
Speaker:become better.
Speaker:It pretty much stays the same.
Speaker:And the story of it happening at
Speaker:scale is just a massive myth.
Speaker:And it ends up meaning
Speaker:that you never really get rid of
Speaker:your burn
Speaker:and you just still need more money
Speaker:for more growth.
Speaker:And therefore you need
Speaker:to get your arms around gross margin
Speaker:regardless of, you
Speaker:can't just use scale as your answer
Speaker:to gross margin.
Speaker:I don't know if that's a story or
Speaker:that's just like my experience.
Speaker:I probably have a better story, but
Speaker:it's just not one that I can share.
Speaker:Lovely. So thank you for that.
Speaker:Let's get on to our conversation
Speaker:with David Pullen in storytelling.
Speaker:The thing about stories, it does
Speaker:involve people and I like to think
Speaker:of it, it's sort of like the YouTube
Speaker:or the Netflix of the mind because
Speaker:there's a huge problem that I find
Speaker:with business is that you get 12
Speaker:people going into a room and talking
Speaker:about what they assume is the same
Speaker:thing and all leaving with
Speaker:12 different stories in
Speaker:their head of what those things
Speaker:mean to them.
Speaker:And I think the major thing to
Speaker:remember is that we all live in
Speaker:a story world.
Speaker:On this little planet circling
Speaker:the sun and a billion of us all
Speaker:with our own story at which
Speaker:we are the center of that
Speaker:story so to realize that.
Speaker:That is happening.
Speaker:There are lots of stories out there
Speaker:and how can you connect with other
Speaker:people's stories, make them part of
Speaker:the story, which is about helping
Speaker:them to co-create the story.
Speaker:So you're right, it's about people,
Speaker:but it's about allowing your people
Speaker:to see.
Speaker:The part that they play,
Speaker:particularly in your situation where
Speaker:you're going into your first hundred
Speaker:days of a new role.
Speaker:It's about sort of understanding
Speaker:where people are now,
Speaker:having a vision of where you want to
Speaker:get them to, but letting them see
Speaker:their journey on that
Speaker:road. It's, yeah, so it is, it's
Speaker:people and letting them see it in
Speaker:their mind going, oh, I get it.
Speaker:I see that now.
Speaker:And feel it, because a good story
Speaker:doesn't only make people see
Speaker:things, it helps them to feel things
Speaker:as well.
Speaker:This phrase of co-creating or
Speaker:co-creating the story, like how
Speaker:do you do that in a real practical
Speaker:way? Like what are the techniques
Speaker:and some of the things for folks to
Speaker:think about in terms of trying to
Speaker:make that happen? Because oftentimes
Speaker:for CEOs, for the business at
Speaker:large, also in meetings that matter,
Speaker:you're trying to do this.
Speaker:You're trying to get that group from
Speaker:A to B over the course of that
Speaker:meeting hour produce a
Speaker:different result at the end of it
Speaker:whereby they walk away with a co-
Speaker:created plan that they believe in
Speaker:that is common across the entire
Speaker:group. How do you make that happen.
Speaker:I think it's about giving people
Speaker:agency within it.
Speaker:I mean, as a leader, it's incredibly
Speaker:important that you have a vision
Speaker:of what this story is.
Speaker:But I mean it's a strategy.
Speaker:Let's use strategy, the story
Speaker:of the strategy.
Speaker:Have a very, very,
Speaker:good pencil sketch that you're going
Speaker:to allow people to do a bit of color
Speaker:by numbers on so they can get
Speaker:involved with it.
Speaker:I started for reasons my bank
Speaker:manager still doesn't 100%
Speaker:understand. I spent about 20 years
Speaker:of my life as an actor, a
Speaker:professional actor in Australia in
Speaker:the UK.
Speaker:And the best directors I worked
Speaker:with. Were the people who turned
Speaker:up on day one with a great set
Speaker:and a great vision of
Speaker:what the end product was going to
Speaker:look like but were willing to be
Speaker:surprised on the journey of how
Speaker:they got to that end product.
Speaker:They weren't working with puppets.
Speaker:I mean, they weren't going, great,
Speaker:you move here and you do this.
Speaker:Some of them were, admittedly.
Speaker:But it was the ones who
Speaker:had a very, very strong vision.
Speaker:They wanted to do this, what I'm
Speaker:thinking of in particular is
Speaker:Sam Mendes, the film director, I
Speaker:mean, he's...
Speaker:Fantastic at this great strong
Speaker:vision but he's willing to
Speaker:allow people to develop
Speaker:their place within that and
Speaker:I think it's a tough one this
Speaker:because you know we're all stressed
Speaker:we're all sort of short of time
Speaker:these days but I do think
Speaker:that creating the time and space as
Speaker:a leader And by that,
Speaker:I mean sitting down, literally
Speaker:creating the time and the physical
Speaker:proximity.
Speaker:And in some ways, I'm going
Speaker:to use those two words,
Speaker:psychological safety as well,
Speaker:whereby people can feel that they
Speaker:can say what they need
Speaker:to say and be heard and understood,
Speaker:creating that time and space so
Speaker:people can feel that we do have the
Speaker:agency to do that coloring
Speaker:by numbers, if you think.
Speaker:This is one of my problems with
Speaker:storytelling or like using the
Speaker:word story is in
Speaker:a business context versus the rest
Speaker:of our world context.
Speaker:You've just told us a story, you've
Speaker:actually kind of told us two
Speaker:stories. You told us about your time
Speaker:as an actor and then that's
Speaker:as a person and it's in the past and
Speaker:you're like, oh, I will now remember
Speaker:your story.
Speaker:And then you kind of told a second
Speaker:story about Sam Mendes but
Speaker:not in as much detail so I probably
Speaker:won't remember that story.
Speaker:But then we were all talking about
Speaker:it as leaders that were doing this,
Speaker:for telling a story of the future.
Speaker:And we're painting a picture of the
Speaker:future, but that's not the same as a
Speaker:story and some of the other
Speaker:elements are just kind of like
Speaker:letting people talk.
Speaker:So I think what we need to talk
Speaker:about here is the difference between
Speaker:story and narrative.
Speaker:My wife and I, and she's my business
Speaker:partner as well, we wrote a book
Speaker:called The DNA of Engagement, a
Speaker:story-based approach to building
Speaker:trust and influencing change, which
Speaker:came out last year and it's
Speaker:done very well.
Speaker:DNA does not stand for
Speaker:deoxyribonucleic acid in this
Speaker:case. It stands for dream nightmare
Speaker:action.
Speaker:And it's those three elements.
Speaker:And we suddenly realized when we
Speaker:were working on this book and
Speaker:working with one very big client in
Speaker:particular who was going through a
Speaker:change program.
Speaker:That these three elements of dream
Speaker:nightmare action happen in our lives
Speaker:from the moment we wake up on a
Speaker:Friday morning wanting to get on a
Speaker:podcast to when we're trying to
Speaker:set the vision of a company,
Speaker:when we try to set a vision of the
Speaker:country, when trying to change the
Speaker:climate. We have a goal.
Speaker:We have dream.
Speaker:We need to get very clear about
Speaker:that. We all need to be on the same
Speaker:page. What are we trying to achieve?
Speaker:Then we have a nightmare, my dream.
Speaker:Get onto Riverside.
Speaker:Nightmare.
Speaker:My computer needed updating.
Speaker:Action. I scramble around trying to
Speaker:update and get my AirPods to work.
Speaker:So this dream nightmare action
Speaker:narrative structure runs
Speaker:right through our lives from the
Speaker:moment we wake up to the moment.
Speaker:We go to sleep on a micro level on
Speaker:a macro level.
Speaker:That's the narrative.
Speaker:The stories are the things that
Speaker:bring that narrative to life.
Speaker:Think of it like the narrative is
Speaker:like a tree. It's a pine tree.
Speaker:It's the decorations, the tinsel and
Speaker:the baubles making a Christmas tree.
Speaker:So as a leader, having a very
Speaker:clear vision of what the narrative
Speaker:is, this is what my dream is.
Speaker:This is what I think the future is
Speaker:going to look like.
Speaker:I can share with you, I
Speaker:mean, where this came from was
Speaker:Aviva, the British insurer,
Speaker:works in Canada and UK and Ireland.
Speaker:And Dame Amanda Blanc, who is a big
Speaker:supporter of ours and we work
Speaker:with her a lot, she basically stood
Speaker:in front of her top 200 leaders and
Speaker:said, this is the vision, we're
Speaker:slimming down the business to three
Speaker:main countries, we can approve,
Speaker:we could be a composite insurer.
Speaker:We're going to pay off the
Speaker:investors, but I can't
Speaker:do it myself. You guys have to
Speaker:find out how you can engage
Speaker:the business, the 22,000 people
Speaker:in having the conversation where
Speaker:they want to co-create this and come
Speaker:on this journey.
Speaker:So I want you to figure out what
Speaker:you're going to do. What is the step
Speaker:change you're gonna make as leaders?
Speaker:She had a dream.
Speaker:She saw what the nightmare was.
Speaker:She couldn't do it herself.
Speaker:She asked for the actions.
Speaker:The process thereafter in the change
Speaker:was getting those 200
Speaker:leaders to go through a process of
Speaker:thinking, what do those
Speaker:nightmares look in my space?
Speaker:What do they look like in my
Speaker:particular part of the business?
Speaker:What actions do I individually
Speaker:need to take in order to
Speaker:make the dream come true?
Speaker:And that was it.
Speaker:They created their own story based
Speaker:on Amanda's vision.
Speaker:And then it was a case of trickling
Speaker:it down through the business.
Speaker:So it's a bit like pyramid selling,
Speaker:if you think pyramid selling of
Speaker:storytelling, I mean, you tell the
Speaker:story, you get other people to
Speaker:create the story and that drives the
Speaker:culture through the business.
Speaker:And it was very successful.
Speaker:So I think it's the difference
Speaker:between a future narrative and then
Speaker:creating the stories that make that
Speaker:narrative.
Speaker:A reality.
Speaker:And I guess my thought as an
Speaker:operator is, oftentimes in these
Speaker:meetings we're dealing with a lot of
Speaker:data, details, dashboards,
Speaker:that sort of thing, and making that
Speaker:pop and come alive and engaging the
Speaker:audience for that with a narrative,
Speaker:with a storyline that is actually
Speaker:engaging for people and sometimes
Speaker:very difficult to do because
Speaker:inherently the material is dry.
Speaker:So in that circumstance for
Speaker:operators like myself, is there
Speaker:anything special you would recommend
Speaker:or suggest in terms of tackling
Speaker:that.
Speaker:Simple answer is yes.
Speaker:I mean, data is, you know,
Speaker:there is one thing that is
Speaker:guaranteed about the future.
Speaker:We're not going to be swimming in
Speaker:any less data.
Speaker:The data is just sort of building by
Speaker:the day and it's how we use that
Speaker:data. And I think it's very easy
Speaker:to depersonalize data.
Speaker:Funnily enough, I'm about to go to
Speaker:India to work with a very big global
Speaker:company on exactly this, on how they
Speaker:tell the story through their written
Speaker:communication on using the data.
Speaker:And it's easy to forget that
Speaker:data is basically affecting people.
Speaker:There is a story behind the data.
Speaker:How do you use that?
Speaker:And so it's about choosing your data
Speaker:well. It's about using the points
Speaker:that you really want to get over,
Speaker:not overwhelming, not people with
Speaker:the data and the cognitive overload.
Speaker:And there's a technique called
Speaker:narrative transportation,
Speaker:which is, it's that feeling, you
Speaker:know when you've been on holiday and
Speaker:you're reading a book and you read a
Speaker:book and you sort of let it think,
Speaker:wow, where's time gone?
Speaker:I was suddenly in sailing in the
Speaker:middle of the Arctic Sea.
Speaker:I wasn't here on the beach.
Speaker:Because your mind goes elsewhere.
Speaker:And it's that basic thing of time,
Speaker:place and character.
Speaker:And if you can add those
Speaker:elements into your data
Speaker:story and telling it, saying,
Speaker:listen, next week,
Speaker:there are going to be people in New
Speaker:Jersey who are going to be looking
Speaker:suddenly you've got people
Speaker:in new Jersey next week.
Speaker:It's making the use of those
Speaker:skills of narrative transportation
Speaker:and never using the S-word.
Speaker:Never tell people that you're about
Speaker:to tell them a story because all
Speaker:sorts of radars and
Speaker:alarm systems go off and people
Speaker:think, hang on,
Speaker:bullshit is coming up.
Speaker:Never use the S word.
Speaker:Just tell the story.
Speaker:Just tell it. Just jump in there.
Speaker:Time, place, character.
Speaker:And the other element is, I think,
Speaker:Brandon's going for the practical,
Speaker:I'm going for the more abstract in
Speaker:all of this, because I'm still
Speaker:working through the theory,
Speaker:is people hear, you need to tell
Speaker:a story and freak
Speaker:out and think it needs to have
Speaker:a beginning, middle and end, it
Speaker:needs to have characters, it needs
Speaker:to be a big arc
Speaker:or a hero's journey, et cetera.
Speaker:And then they're like, oh, but it's
Speaker:very important to tell stories
Speaker:because humans' brains are wired
Speaker:to accept stories, so what I need to
Speaker:do is tell a story.
Speaker:But then if you just relax, you
Speaker:realize that that's how we all
Speaker:communicate. And if you take a step
Speaker:back, all of our communications
Speaker:are my story, your story,
Speaker:waiting till it's the turn for me to
Speaker:tell my story again.
Speaker:I think the whole idea
Speaker:of the hero's journey has done a
Speaker:terrible, terrible disservice to
Speaker:business storytelling because people
Speaker:get into this situation where they
Speaker:think they've got to stand up and
Speaker:create the equivalent of Star Wars
Speaker:and it's never going to happen.
Speaker:It just won't happen.
Speaker:A, you'll probably be bad at it and
Speaker:nobody cares.
Speaker:So just to realize that,
Speaker:as you said, storytelling is
Speaker:about doing what we do every
Speaker:single day to make friends,
Speaker:to have connections. We tell things
Speaker:about what happened to us,
Speaker:you know, do you know what, I went
Speaker:to the pub last night and I was
Speaker:sitting down with Beth and Brandon
Speaker:and you'll never guess what they
Speaker:told me. That's a story.
Speaker:It doesn't have to have a sort of
Speaker:like big, inciting incident
Speaker:and you know one of us getting up a
Speaker:tree and having sticks thrown at us
Speaker:and it doesn't need to happen.
Speaker:If we go back to that DNA structure,
Speaker:just tell the story of the dream.
Speaker:Tell the story what the future looks
Speaker:like, what's it going to look like
Speaker:for people by year
Speaker:end when the strategies have been
Speaker:put in place.
Speaker:Tell the story of some of the
Speaker:nightmares. These are the things
Speaker:that could get in the way of it.
Speaker:For example, in Birmingham, blah,
Speaker:it's about micro stories rather
Speaker:than Spielbergian.
Speaker:Is that a word?
Speaker:Spielbergia big stories.
Speaker:It is now.
Speaker:You know, it's interesting in my
Speaker:career, I've had feedback pretty
Speaker:consistently that I know it's
Speaker:feedback related as opposed to like
Speaker:doubt, doubt that branding can
Speaker:really tell a vision that
Speaker:excites the company, you know, like
Speaker:a CEO would, and that my lot
Speaker:life is a CEO, and I'm not capable
Speaker:of like, telling that grander vision
Speaker:on a consistent basis that's
Speaker:exciting for people.
Speaker:That's a horrible bit of feedback to
Speaker:get from somebody.
Speaker:Who were they, Brandon?
Speaker:Yeah, exactly. I keep thinking about
Speaker:it. It gets me to your question,
Speaker:Beth, or just around kind of like,
Speaker:what are we talking about here?
Speaker:It's a story.
Speaker:It's a grander story, I suppose.
Speaker:Maybe it is a hero's story.
Speaker:I don't quite know. What is the
Speaker:problem here? Why can Brandon not do
Speaker:this?
Speaker:First up, Brandon, I think Brandon
Speaker:can do this.
Speaker:Oh, thank you.
Speaker:Thank you, David.
Speaker:No, I'll tell you exactly what I
Speaker:think that I think the problem is.
Speaker:OK, I want to talk about two things
Speaker:here. Push versus pull influence,
Speaker:if you like.
Speaker:And I think that a lot of leaders
Speaker:and a lot of people get into the
Speaker:problem of they want to push their
Speaker:story onto people.
Speaker:They want to say, this is what we're
Speaker:going to do. This is how we're going
Speaker:to and it's going to be great when
Speaker:we get there.
Speaker:And people are sitting there
Speaker:thinking, hang on a second.
Speaker:We really need to go there.
Speaker:And, you know, is it going to is it
Speaker:really going to be great, when we
Speaker:got there? So coming back to
Speaker:storytelling, I think that the
Speaker:biggest skill people can do is
Speaker:connect to others before they try
Speaker:to push their own story.
Speaker:So I'm gonna talk about this DNA
Speaker:thing again. The reason we talked
Speaker:about that we created this within
Speaker:Aviva is because the first
Speaker:move, the first strategic move
Speaker:is to connect to people and say,
Speaker:listen, I get your story
Speaker:world. I understand.
Speaker:So for example, listen, Brandon,
Speaker:Beth.
Speaker:You guys want to have a great
Speaker:podcast this morning and you want me
Speaker:to put my ear pods in and if I do
Speaker:that there's going to be no echo at
Speaker:all and so you're thinking yeah
Speaker:I'm getting nods from you now so I'm
Speaker:thinking you're think David
Speaker:understands me he's on my side he
Speaker:understands my story world and then
Speaker:you smack him around the head with a
Speaker:nightmare said but guys I'm going to
Speaker:tell you this my head port I can't
Speaker:hear a thing through my earpods so
Speaker:how about we figure a workaround
Speaker:like that I think this connection
Speaker:call it this connection before
Speaker:correction Rather than thinking you
Speaker:have to tell a story connect
Speaker:to other people's stories first
Speaker:say listen i get what it is you're
Speaker:trying to achieve what we're trying
Speaker:to achieve and what's gonna mean in
Speaker:the future but now let's look at
Speaker:what could get in the way of that
Speaker:and then figure out what things on
Speaker:the future i think.
Speaker:It's a big problem.
Speaker:People feel that they have to
Speaker:perform as storytellers and
Speaker:you don't actually.
Speaker:Can I tell you another analogy from
Speaker:acting that I think is really
Speaker:important? And I think it's a whole
Speaker:problem around the whole skill of
Speaker:presentation.
Speaker:As soon as you get people to give a
Speaker:presentation, say you're giving a
Speaker:presentation to the board on Monday,
Speaker:you go, Oh my God, the board,
Speaker:they're like a bunch of critics
Speaker:from the New York press and they're
Speaker:out there waiting to say, in an
Speaker:otherwise enjoyable evening, the
Speaker:part of the COO was played by
Speaker:David Pullen and it was frankly
Speaker:terrible.
Speaker:That's what you think.
Speaker:You think you have to impress them.
Speaker:I think if we shift our
Speaker:mindset in all presentation,
Speaker:in all business communication
Speaker:from I'm Don't try to impress with
Speaker:these people.
Speaker:They are not the audience, they
Speaker:are my scene partner.
Speaker:And as an actor, all you're
Speaker:doing with your scene partner is
Speaker:trying to change the way that they
Speaker:think about things and feel about
Speaker:things.
Speaker:The audience is out there somewhere
Speaker:looking on at it.
Speaker:So don't try and impress people.
Speaker:Try and change what they see, what
Speaker:they feel, what they think
Speaker:of out in the future.
Speaker:So I think we put a huge
Speaker:amount of pressure on ourselves.
Speaker:And it sounds like somebody put a
Speaker:huge amount pressure on you,
Speaker:Brandon. I'm about to cry here.
Speaker:You're so right.
Speaker:So David, I want to switch
Speaker:tack a bit.
Speaker:So in our conversation,
Speaker:you mentioned, I think it was the
Speaker:four stories, either the
Speaker:four story we tell ourselves.
Speaker:I've been thinking about it because
Speaker:we didn't go into what they were or
Speaker:we went very briefly, and I just
Speaker:really want to know.
Speaker:And I think that it's kind of
Speaker:relevant to what we were just
Speaker:talking about.
Speaker:Yeah, I think it is too.
Speaker:So it comes back to why we're called
Speaker:the story spotters and not the
Speaker:storytellers, because storytelling
Speaker:is only one of the elements
Speaker:of story world, if you like.
Speaker:So Sarah Jane and I at the
Speaker:StorySpotters, we think about story
Speaker:in four ways.
Speaker:The first one is exactly what
Speaker:everybody would think. It's the
Speaker:stories you need to spot, shape and
Speaker:share to actually engage people's
Speaker:heads and hearts.
Speaker:We know that story does that.
Speaker:How do you tell those stories?
Speaker:The second one is about what
Speaker:stories are you listening for?
Speaker:How do actually back to that thing
Speaker:we said about earlier about the time
Speaker:and space, how do you create the
Speaker:space?
Speaker:Whereas a leader, you can actually
Speaker:listen to other people's stories so
Speaker:you get their world because those
Speaker:two things are really important.
Speaker:I think telling a story makes your
Speaker:information understood and
Speaker:listening to people makes people
Speaker:feel understood.
Speaker:And I think the trust is really
Speaker:built on those two elements.
Speaker:We tend to understand, we tend
Speaker:to trust what we understand
Speaker:and we tend trust people.
Speaker:Who want to understand us, who want
Speaker:to connect with us.
Speaker:So those two are really important.
Speaker:The third thing is the
Speaker:stories we trigger through our
Speaker:behaviors.
Speaker:And I think that that's something
Speaker:that is hugely important.
Speaker:The thing about leadership is there
Speaker:is no off switch.
Speaker:I mean, you are there.
Speaker:You're being observed.
Speaker:And people are judging what their
Speaker:day is going to be like, what their
Speaker:year is going to be like by the way
Speaker:that you walk through the door.
Speaker:So the stories you trigger through
Speaker:your behaviors are important.
Speaker:And the last thing, and I think
Speaker:we've touched on this already, is
Speaker:And another leadership role is
Speaker:the stories we tell ourselves
Speaker:about ourselves, which which
Speaker:interestingly I think in terms of
Speaker:change, especially in the world that
Speaker:you guys work in, particularly
Speaker:with scale-ups, as organizations
Speaker:grow, and I can't remember what the
Speaker:name of that number is when it
Speaker:gets beyond the eight people around
Speaker:a toaster and with a great idea and
Speaker:getting stuff done.
Speaker:That's great, but as soon as it
Speaker:starts expanding out and it becomes
Speaker:remote, what are the stories we're
Speaker:telling ourselves about ourselves?
Speaker:Those become the
Speaker:stories you listen for, stories you
Speaker:trigger through behaviors and the
Speaker:stories you tell yourselves about
Speaker:yourselves.
Speaker:So three, one and two, I get three
Speaker:and four.
Speaker:So what do we mean by three?
Speaker:So like, uh, stories triggered by
Speaker:behavior. What, what is that?
Speaker:If you think about it, how many
Speaker:times have you been sitting in a bar
Speaker:or restaurant, somebody's walked
Speaker:through the door and you think, oh,
Speaker:I don't think I'm going to get along
Speaker:well with them.
Speaker:It's sort of, you know, it's just
Speaker:the demeanor they bring in.
Speaker:I mean, we all, for very good
Speaker:evolutionary reasons, we are really,
Speaker:really primed to think,
Speaker:do I like this person?
Speaker:Is this person going to eat me for
Speaker:lunch? Could I eat this person for
Speaker:lunch. It is the sort of the
Speaker:behaviors, just the things that we
Speaker:do, the way that we show up in
Speaker:space, whether it's online or in
Speaker:the room.
Speaker:People in a split second,
Speaker:there's a guy called Mark Bowden,
Speaker:who's a UK guy, lives in Toronto
Speaker:now. He's very, very good body
Speaker:language and a very, very funny body
Speaker:language person as well.
Speaker:He's got a great TED talk.
Speaker:And he walks on stage and
Speaker:the first thing he says is, so
Speaker:you've already decided whether you
Speaker:like me or not.
Speaker:And that's it. And it's really hard
Speaker:to untangle that because we are
Speaker:primed.
Speaker:For survival, to judge, to
Speaker:tell a story about whether we think
Speaker:somebody is, you know, to judge the
Speaker:book by its cover essentially,
Speaker:which is the thing we're told never
Speaker:to do, but we do it.
Speaker:So how you show up as a person,
Speaker:do you look as though you're
Speaker:somebody who people want to follow,
Speaker:somebody who, people want to spend
Speaker:time around? That's what number
Speaker:three is, definitely.
Speaker:So is that like a combination of
Speaker:what you wear, whether you're
Speaker:approachable or not,
Speaker:if you're grumpy for
Speaker:that day?
Speaker:Yeah, no it is.
Speaker:And do you know what, Beth, I think
Speaker:the interesting thing is this is a
Speaker:choice as well. I mean...
Speaker:Sarah Jane and I often tell, you
Speaker:know, we make a bit of a joke of it
Speaker:and sort of say, you know it's
Speaker:Friday night, we've got friends
Speaker:coming around for dinner at 7.30.
Speaker:I come back from the train at
Speaker:seven o'clock and Sarah Jane says,
Speaker:have you got that fish?
Speaker:And I go, oh no, I forgot to get the
Speaker:fish. And she's going, what the hell
Speaker:are you doing? That's dinner.
Speaker:And then suddenly the doorbell goes
Speaker:and you open the door.
Speaker:The guest there, you don't go, go
Speaker:away. We're having an argument.
Speaker:You go, Oh, come in.
Speaker:We just sort of figuring out exactly
Speaker:what we're going to do for dinner. You
Speaker:make that choice.
Speaker:You might be as angry as hell with
Speaker:each other, but you make the choice
Speaker:when the door opens about who you're
Speaker:going to be.
Speaker:And I think we all need to
Speaker:remember that, you know, we have a
Speaker:choice about how we show up in the
Speaker:room.
Speaker:And that's tied into four, which is
Speaker:a story you're telling yourself,
Speaker:because it's the story you are
Speaker:telling yourself that the fish is a
Speaker:disaster and the evening
Speaker:is over, or actually
Speaker:you can be flexible.
Speaker:No, that's right.
Speaker:I mean, do I have a route through
Speaker:this? I mean what's his, you know,
Speaker:the nightmare is the fish isn't
Speaker:there. What's the action?
Speaker:Oh, we have baked beans.
Speaker:We can open that tin.
Speaker:So, and you know I'll put garlic in
Speaker:there. They'll think it's gourmet
Speaker:gourmet baked beans, who doesn't
Speaker:love that.
Speaker:And serve a lot of wine and nobody
Speaker:will care.
Speaker:So just on the behavior front, you
Speaker:walk into the office, it's open
Speaker:plan, your presence and how you
Speaker:carry yourself and how interact with
Speaker:people, your behavior.
Speaker:As you said, people are judging you
Speaker:and as a CEO of the company or
Speaker:CEO of a company, you're viewed in
Speaker:a very special way from the outset,
Speaker:regardless of who you are.
Speaker:Then everything is layered on top of
Speaker:that in terms of your personality,
Speaker:your behavior and so on, I suppose.
Speaker:There's a certain level of like, I
Speaker:don't know what you call it, like
Speaker:inbuilt fear.
Speaker:Of our positions.
Speaker:I'm very cognizant of in a business
Speaker:environment is there things that I
Speaker:can do or think about
Speaker:to shape things
Speaker:to some extent without changing who
Speaker:I am as a person, but behaviorally
Speaker:maybe showing up in a better way for
Speaker:the rest of the company than I would
Speaker:do otherwise. And this is kind of
Speaker:like you're opening the door thing
Speaker:that you just talked out.
Speaker:Absolutely. There's a very good
Speaker:friend of mine who's a who's a
Speaker:psychotherapist. I remember having a
Speaker:drink with him, as one does with the
Speaker:psychotherapists, many years ago.
Speaker:And he said, you know, David, the
Speaker:biggest thing you have to realize in
Speaker:life is there is no single David
Speaker:Pullen. It's like there's a
Speaker:coachload of David Pullens and
Speaker:they all sit there in this bus.
Speaker:And your only decision you have make
Speaker:is which David Pullan is going to
Speaker:get out at which bus stop.
Speaker:So you get there, what contextually,
Speaker:which one gets out here.
Speaker:And when he said that, I thought
Speaker:that's really interesting because I
Speaker:think we limit our power by
Speaker:limiting the potential of our
Speaker:authenticity and realizing there's
Speaker:all sorts of different Davids as
Speaker:there are indeed with Brandon and
Speaker:Beth, and they all show up slightly
Speaker:differently.
Speaker:It's just which one comes out
Speaker:at which moment.
Speaker:And interestingly, just thinking
Speaker:about your point there and you
Speaker:said before, Brandon, I think that,
Speaker:and actually this ties into what you
Speaker:were saying, Beth, as well, in terms
Speaker:of starting a role, is we
Speaker:build in those initial rapport
Speaker:building, trust building stages
Speaker:within a new role, that's
Speaker:the moment where we build a lot of
Speaker:equity, you know, how you show up
Speaker:in those first 100 days and
Speaker:not only physically, but how you
Speaker:showed up on Slack, on an email,
Speaker:on all sorts of things.
Speaker:People are putting the pieces
Speaker:together, the little tiles in the
Speaker:mosaic going, That's who Brandon is,
Speaker:that's who David is, that's you Beth
Speaker:is. And I think once you've
Speaker:built that equity of,
Speaker:I hate to use this, but personal
Speaker:brand, if you like, but I've used it
Speaker:too late and I've slipped out.
Speaker:But once you built that, then you
Speaker:build a little bit of, you know,
Speaker:there's a bit of wriggle room.
Speaker:So if you turn up one day and,
Speaker:God, you feel terrible, people
Speaker:aren't going to go, Oh my God, the
Speaker:sky's falling.
Speaker:Because you've built a bit of trust
Speaker:there already.
Speaker:But I think those early stages of
Speaker:thinking, how do I need to show up
Speaker:in all channels, as I say,
Speaker:written and in real life, if you
Speaker:like, is really important.
Speaker:I'm going to go back to it's
Speaker:entirely tied into the stories you
Speaker:tell yourself, because that's
Speaker:how your behaviors come out.
Speaker:Do I need my psychotherapist friend
Speaker:for this bit back?
Speaker:I'm not sure.
Speaker:I don't think so.
Speaker:I was recently on a retreat with
Speaker:the COO Roundtable and
Speaker:Divinia, who's a friend of the
Speaker:podcast, I'm going to talk about
Speaker:her. She either has just
Speaker:completed or is completing
Speaker:a master's in transactional
Speaker:analysis.
Speaker:We were talking about
Speaker:the drama triangle, which we
Speaker:can talk about maybe in a second,
Speaker:but also what reminded
Speaker:me you're saying there's all these
Speaker:different people within us, but
Speaker:there's also, there are...
Speaker:Parents, children,
Speaker:and adults in us.
Speaker:What we're looking for is
Speaker:adult-to-adult conversations where
Speaker:we're all relaxed and
Speaker:in a, I don't know, ego-neutral
Speaker:state. I'm not using the right
Speaker:terminology, but you know, the
Speaker:conversation we're having right now
Speaker:is a adult- to-adul conversation.
Speaker:And then we can end up
Speaker:getting hurt,
Speaker:confused, activated
Speaker:in ways that bring
Speaker:out the like rebellious
Speaker:child in us and.
Speaker:You might be dealing with somebody
Speaker:who's having an absolute
Speaker:moment or you might feel that
Speaker:coming out of you.
Speaker:And one of the things in
Speaker:transactional analysis is that you
Speaker:can try and help bring that person
Speaker:back to an adult state, but
Speaker:there's no point.
Speaker:An adult to a child, like it's not
Speaker:going to work because they're just
Speaker:not in a state where they
Speaker:are regulated and
Speaker:able to talk.
Speaker:And I think also from your actor.
Speaker:Background because that requires
Speaker:a level of self-regulation in order
Speaker:to understand which emotions you're
Speaker:pulling out.
Speaker:If you find yourself as a leader
Speaker:having a temper tantrum,
Speaker:how do you regulate yourself
Speaker:out of that with the stories that
Speaker:you tell.
Speaker:Wow, that is a great question.
Speaker:I'm going to dive into this
Speaker:transactional analysis thing a bit
Speaker:here because I think it's really
Speaker:important.
Speaker:I think the short answer to your
Speaker:question is just to be aware of what
Speaker:is going on and the potential for
Speaker:what is doing on the potential
Speaker:danger of what is going here.
Speaker:There's a communication consultant
Speaker:called Amy, and I can't remember her
Speaker:surname, who lives in Switzerland.
Speaker:And she and her sister who lives
Speaker:in the US have
Speaker:turned the transactional
Speaker:analysis model into what they call
Speaker:the partner-predator-prey model,
Speaker:which I think is really interesting.
Speaker:And so basically, you have a
Speaker:situation where sometimes people
Speaker:unwittingly are
Speaker:leaders are in the predator state,
Speaker:just the way they're coming over.
Speaker:And we can unwitting self put
Speaker:ourselves in the prey position as
Speaker:well of going, oh, I'm not really
Speaker:worthy of sort of going and saying,
Speaker:I can have a pay rise here and blah,
Speaker:blah, and it's sort of exactly as
Speaker:you're saying, Beth, the stories we
Speaker:tell ourselves about ourselves.
Speaker:So I think step one is realizing
Speaker:that that is going on.
Speaker:It's the games that people play,
Speaker:to quote the people who came up with
Speaker:transactional analysis in the first
Speaker:place. The partnership role,
Speaker:I like to vision it a bit like a
Speaker:seesaw. It's about, you know, when
Speaker:you're a kid, you get the seesaw,
Speaker:let's see if we can balance this
Speaker:thing. Let's see if we keep this
Speaker:thing on balance with each other.
Speaker:The partnership is a fluid thing in
Speaker:balance and is based on respect.
Speaker:It is based upon respect for
Speaker:yourself and respect for the other.
Speaker:It comes back to this psychological
Speaker:safety.
Speaker:I respect who I am.
Speaker:I also respect who you are.
Speaker:Let's try and keep this thing in
Speaker:balance together.
Speaker:So I think the major thing is just
Speaker:realizing, if I'm going in
Speaker:there with this attitude,
Speaker:be it either as predator or
Speaker:as prey, there's gonna be danger
Speaker:here. How can we turn this back into
Speaker:partnership?
Speaker:I'll give you a very quick story of
Speaker:that. It actually happened to me
Speaker:years and years ago now.
Speaker:I was introduced to a...
Speaker:Bit of a master of the financial
Speaker:universe. The guy introduced me to
Speaker:this guy said, oh, this is David.
Speaker:He's an actor and he basically
Speaker:teaches people to speak better.
Speaker:He had no idea what I did, but that
Speaker:was his shorthand for what I
Speaker:And this guy said, no, it must be
Speaker:very intimidating for you being
Speaker:around all these intelligent people
Speaker:in the city if you're just an actor.
Speaker:Now, listen, he was probably
Speaker:wittingly doing Predator and trying
Speaker:to put me into prey.
Speaker:And I thought to myself, well, apart
Speaker:from the fact I wanted to hit him, I
Speaker:didn't. I had basically said,
Speaker:who was it? Was it Lincoln who said,
Speaker:I don't like this man, I must get to
Speaker:know him better?
Speaker:I took that one.
Speaker:I took a leaf out of Abraham
Speaker:Lincoln's book.
Speaker:And I said to him, well you know,
Speaker:I've seemed to have got away with it
Speaker:so far, But listen, I hear you've
Speaker:got a yacht in the Silly Isles.
Speaker:I hear that an hour later, we drunk
Speaker:a bottle of red wine.
Speaker:I'd got his card.
Speaker:We went through coffee the next
Speaker:week. I just refused to be put
Speaker:into the prey position and sort
Speaker:of brought him back into
Speaker:partnership, respecting me,
Speaker:respecting him.
Speaker:So it's a very long answer to what's
Speaker:a short answer.
Speaker:Basically realize the dangers.
Speaker:And get back into that adult
Speaker:place, that partnership place.
Speaker:Poor Brandon. Brandon's like, but
Speaker:how? How do I do this?
Speaker:How do I this in a business context?
Speaker:I don't care about all of this
Speaker:theory.
Speaker:Time and space, time and space.
Speaker:It really is. And it's difficult.
Speaker:It really is difficult.
Speaker:I mean, take the time to talk to
Speaker:people, to hear their stories, to
Speaker:let your story be heard.
Speaker:And like I say, we are not talking
Speaker:about Star Wars here.
Speaker:A story, you get it out in 20,
Speaker:30 seconds.
Speaker:Say, Don't start with your fifth
Speaker:birthday, I want to know what
Speaker:happened last week.
Speaker:The other thing I was thinking about
Speaker:before we just came onto our podcast
Speaker:was oftentimes as a CEO
Speaker:across the company, you're trying to
Speaker:pull people together and a
Speaker:lot of the situations you're dealing
Speaker:with are tough situations
Speaker:where sales is having a
Speaker:problem with marketing or the VP of
Speaker:sales is a problem with the VP and
Speaker:marketing and so on.
Speaker:And you're conversational,
Speaker:you get in this position where...
Speaker:It's getting into like a really
Speaker:difficult spot and as a CEO what
Speaker:you're trying to do is pivot out of
Speaker:it With some kind of story to put
Speaker:the conversation back onto the right
Speaker:track So it doesn't devolve into
Speaker:something that you don't want.
Speaker:Do you have any
Speaker:tips or Tricks around how to
Speaker:how do you identify like
Speaker:when is the right time to do that?
Speaker:And what's the best way to do?
Speaker:Next time is probably now.
Speaker:It's about the
Speaker:sooner you get the story in place,
Speaker:the better. And the ways to do it, I
Speaker:think, are evolving by the minute.
Speaker:I've trained up this AI model using,
Speaker:do you know chip AI?
Speaker:Have you come across chip?
Speaker:It helps you use natural language
Speaker:to develop your own AI
Speaker:agents, basically.
Speaker:And I've train it in my methodology.
Speaker:I called this thing called the Lois
Speaker:Lane, because it makes me laugh.
Speaker:And Lois is an interviewer who
Speaker:writes for The Atlantic and Time
Speaker:Magazine, things like that.
Speaker:She's trained to do that.
Speaker:And it's all closed loop.
Speaker:It doesn't go out to chat GPT or
Speaker:anything and basically she asks
Speaker:questions and I got this group of
Speaker:people all working towards one
Speaker:vision and not necessarily knowing
Speaker:how they all fit together answering
Speaker:a bunch of questions and she's
Speaker:amazing she asked questions of you
Speaker:took about 20 minutes and then she
Speaker:wrote an article like it would
Speaker:appear in the Atlantic or time or
Speaker:something like that and everybody
Speaker:sat there going okay we see how
Speaker:we all fit together now and what the
Speaker:future can look like so
Speaker:I think in the past, I've done
Speaker:massive two-day workshops
Speaker:whereby people have come together
Speaker:and okay, let's do
Speaker:lots of slides about what the future
Speaker:looks like and then let's get into
Speaker:breakouts and sort of figure out how
Speaker:we need to work
Speaker:together and what we individually
Speaker:can do.
Speaker:It's one way of doing it.
Speaker:I think there are quicker ways of
Speaker:doing it now that you can actually
Speaker:get people to that point and then
Speaker:they have something that they can
Speaker:refer to. It's like they're.
Speaker:Refer back to that piece of paper,
Speaker:that story that you wrote about
Speaker:yourselves.
Speaker:That's a great way of bringing
Speaker:large, disparate groups of
Speaker:people who ostensibly
Speaker:should be driving towards
Speaker:the same aim, but they get very
Speaker:siloed. They don't see what the
Speaker:bigger picture
Speaker:So my question is,
Speaker:and it just reminded me when you
Speaker:said you're getting people together
Speaker:in workshops for two days, the
Speaker:activity in a workshop that I hate
Speaker:more than anything or an
Speaker:off site is where
Speaker:you have a topic and you break
Speaker:up into groups and for x
Speaker:amount of time each group works
Speaker:on the topic and then
Speaker:replays that back to the bigger
Speaker:group. I hate that one
Speaker:and yet it's the one that you do
Speaker:every single time.
Speaker:Do you have a better one?
Speaker:Tell me why you hate that, Beth.
Speaker:I hate it too, but I'm interested to
Speaker:know why you hate it.
Speaker:So I hate being in the
Speaker:group of a bunch of random, you
Speaker:know, because you're also you're
Speaker:mixing up the teams, the teams can
Speaker:get to know each other.
Speaker:And you have somebody who goes off
Speaker:and does something weird, the woman
Speaker:in the groups always has to be the
Speaker:scribe. And so I make it as a rule
Speaker:that no the women can't be the
Speaker:scribes.
Speaker:And either people come up with stuff
Speaker:that's just totally irrelevant and
Speaker:have gone off on some sort of
Speaker:massive tangent, or
Speaker:and which is much more common, every
Speaker:single group comes up with the same
Speaker:idea. And yet, every
Speaker:single group has to stand up and
Speaker:present and you get good
Speaker:presenters and bad presenters and
Speaker:people who love being on stage and
Speaker:who absolutely hog the limelight and
Speaker:the time saying nothing times
Speaker:eight and so it's
Speaker:really boring to
Speaker:listen to everybody's ideas and you
Speaker:have to pretend you care and
Speaker:generally you're getting nothing out
Speaker:of it but it's just like
Speaker:Why do you hate it?
Speaker:For all of the reasons that you said
Speaker:and often it doesn't go anywhere.
Speaker:I mean, where does it go afterwards?
Speaker:I mean it's an information gathering
Speaker:thing rather than an imagination
Speaker:creating thing about what could be.
Speaker:It's what is more often than
Speaker:not and it's people showing off
Speaker:about, Oh, I know this much.
Speaker:I mean, it's.
Speaker:I think there are huge problems with
Speaker:it. I mean, I don't like it at all.
Speaker:I tell you one exercise that I have
Speaker:done with people in the past, which
Speaker:is, have you ever come across
Speaker:constrained creativity?
Speaker:Have you ever came across that as an
Speaker:exercise? They were thinking about
Speaker:the future. And so you give them an
Speaker:object. Let's say you give him a
Speaker:glass of water and you say, right,
Speaker:as a group on the table, I want you
Speaker:to write down all the adjectives
Speaker:that you think to do with it about
Speaker:that. So you say, it's refreshing,
Speaker:it transparent, it life-giving,
Speaker:it clear, it whatever the adjectives
Speaker:describe a glass of water.
Speaker:And then you say Okay,
Speaker:if you as an organization were
Speaker:transparent, clear,
Speaker:life-giving, refreshing, what
Speaker:would you need to be doing to do
Speaker:that? What things aren't
Speaker:you doing at the moment and do you
Speaker:need in the future?
Speaker:I like that exercise because it gets
Speaker:people thinking creatively, it gets
Speaker:them thinking about what is and
Speaker:what could be.
Speaker:It's a bit of a pattern disruptor in
Speaker:people's brains.
Speaker:It gets people doing what
Speaker:we as a species, as far as
Speaker:we know, are the only ones on the
Speaker:planet that can do, which is
Speaker:imagine. I like constraint
Speaker:creativity as an exercise.
Speaker:If our listeners can
Speaker:only take one thing away from it,
Speaker:what is that?
Speaker:Connect before you correct.
Speaker:Connect to other people's stories
Speaker:first and then put your
Speaker:story in.
Speaker:On that note, thank you, David, for
Speaker:joining us on the operations room.
Speaker:If you like what you hear, please
Speaker:subscribe or leave us a comment.
Speaker:And we will see you next week.
