84. What Scale Up Founders Go Through
In this episode we discuss: What scale up founders go through. We are joined by Jonny Burch, Designer turned Founder.
Love The Operations Room? Please support us by rating and reviewing it here.
We chat about the following with Jonny Burch:
- How can rethinking the office itself completely change how people connect, collaborate, and feel part of a company?
- What happens when leaders stop managing people — and start designing environments where people can do their best work?
- Is your company culture something you say — or something you can feel when you walk through the door?
- What’s the real cost of ignoring the “unwritten rules” that shape how your team communicates and collaborates?
- How do you balance flexibility, belonging, and performance when your team is spread across screens and cities?
References
- Https://linkedin.com/in/jonnyburch
- Https://jonnyburch.com
- hackweeks.com
- toy.studio
- foundupnorth.com
Biography
Jonny Burch is a designer and exited founder exploring AI through a product lens. He scaled Deliveroo’s consumer design team and went on to found Progression, a platform focused on skills, personal development, and career growth. After raising over $6M from US and UK investors and successfully exiting in 2024, he's now taking time to reflect, supporting teams with AI adoption at hackweeks.com as well as incubating future products under his personal software practice toy.studio.
To learn more about Beth and Brandon or to find out about sponsorship opportunities click here.
Summary
06:30 – Maximizing time as a CEO
08:30 – Office culture and space design
10:30 – The CEO Roundtable Retreat
17:00 – Building trust as a COO and CEO
19:30 – Force multipliers and structure
21:00 – Why growth makes CEOs feel disconnected
22:30 – The SaaS Flywheel and diagnosing business health
26:30 – Delegation done right
27:30 – Becoming the CEO
30:00 – The emotional weight of leadership
31:45 – How leadership changes your brain
32:30 – The paradox of influence and isolation
33:30 – Knowing your limits
34:30 – Lessons for leaders
36:00 – Final reflections
This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis:
Podcorn - https://podcorn.com/privacy
Transcript
Hello and welcome to another episode
Speaker:of the Operations Room, a podcast
Speaker:for COOs.
Speaker:I am Brandon Mensinger, joined by my
Speaker:amazing and lovely co-host Bethany
Speaker:Ayers. How are things going,
Speaker:Bethany?
Speaker:Hey, I got my adjectives back.
Speaker:Yes, adjectives are back.
Speaker:I'm doing really well because this
Speaker:is the end of my first week as
Speaker:a CEO.
Speaker:What first week as CEO?
Speaker:That is amazing.
Speaker:So how does that feel?
Speaker:Yeah, it's really good.
Speaker:The power, the control.
Speaker:It's not so much the power and
Speaker:control as not having
Speaker:an overlord.
Speaker:Yes, I know what you mean.
Speaker:So there's not so much being
Speaker:somebody else's overlord as much
Speaker:as just like not having
Speaker:the subconscious
Speaker:specter of somebody
Speaker:who notices everything.
Speaker:It does feel very freeing.
Speaker:So one of the bigger changes is
Speaker:going into an office and
Speaker:doing the London commute again.
Speaker:Yeah, back to the grind.
Speaker:How many days a week do you need to
Speaker:go in or have to go?
Speaker:Well, I mean, it's up to me, isn't
Speaker:it? So we're hybrid
Speaker:of a couple of people who are
Speaker:remote. So for the London
Speaker:based team coming
Speaker:in on a Monday and a Thursday,
Speaker:Monday is, you know,
Speaker:kickoff meetings and just doing them
Speaker:in person rather than everything
Speaker:being on zoom.
Speaker:I have a bit more energy and also
Speaker:Mondays are the best day to commute.
Speaker:Yeah, by far.
Speaker:Yeah, just you get seats.
Speaker:It's lovely.
Speaker:Yep, the tube is dead.
Speaker:Half of what it usually is.
Speaker:So we'll do two days a week,
Speaker:everyone.
Speaker:And then ideally teams will choose a
Speaker:third day. And then I was planning
Speaker:on going in probably three days a
Speaker:week, we'll see, but for the first
Speaker:two weeks I'm doing four.
Speaker:And so that's just a real shock
Speaker:to the system.
Speaker:At my current company, that is now
Speaker:what I'm doing, Monday through
Speaker:Thursday in the office and Fridays I
Speaker:work from home and it was a
Speaker:shock to the system I would say for
Speaker:the first while.
Speaker:Like there was a certain grind to it
Speaker:every day that you're just not used
Speaker:to and I guess it's a bit of like
Speaker:muscle memory kind of when you go to
Speaker:the gym and all that. You need to
Speaker:like get back in the routine and now
Speaker:that I'm back in routine, it doesn't
Speaker:phase me or I don't think about it
Speaker:twice but I think that initial month
Speaker:or so, there is a bit a grind
Speaker:effect where you just feel like a
Speaker:little frazzled
Speaker:or something to that effect.
Speaker:Yeah. And also,
Speaker:like, I'm very aware that right now
Speaker:it's still summertime.
Speaker:And so I'm leaving in its light and
Speaker:I'm coming home in its light, but
Speaker:we're going to tip over to the other
Speaker:side. And I'm not looking forward
Speaker:to the leaving when
Speaker:it's dark and the coming home when
Speaker:it's dark.
Speaker:Have you done that yet?
Speaker:I think I got the tip end of it when
Speaker:I first joined because it's now been
Speaker:six months. So what is six months?
Speaker:I don't even know. That was back in
Speaker:April. So I think we were just
Speaker:coming out of the darkness.
Speaker:Actually, a question I had for you
Speaker:and our poor listeners is
Speaker:how are you fitting the gym in?
Speaker:Are you fitting in the gym or
Speaker:physical exercise?
Speaker:No, I am.
Speaker:So I have one stickler rule in
Speaker:my life that I've bound myself to
Speaker:for my entire existence,
Speaker:which is the gym workouts have
Speaker:to happen.
Speaker:So with family and work and this
Speaker:grind of four days a week in the
Speaker:office, I'm up at
Speaker:4.15. I'm at the gym at five.
Speaker:I work out five to six.
Speaker:I come back home.
Speaker:I have breakfast.
Speaker:Kids get up.
Speaker:And then we do the routine with the
Speaker:kids and all that to get them off to
Speaker:school. And I boom, go off to work
Speaker:at that point.
Speaker:So when I go to bed, I am in bed.
Speaker:Let's say a 45, something
Speaker:like that. And if I'm
Speaker:good, then I'll be asleep by
Speaker:nine. If I'm not good, I need to do
Speaker:like a doom scroll, which I did the
Speaker:other night, by the way, then I
Speaker:might be asleep, let's 10 max,
Speaker:something that.
Speaker:By the way when you doom scroll do
Speaker:not doom scroll on James Blunt.
Speaker:How does that even happen?
Speaker:I don't even know, I have no
Speaker:idea, but I got caught on one of his
Speaker:videos for some reason and I watched
Speaker:it, and then I had this desire
Speaker:to watch more James Blunt, and I can
Speaker:tell you this much, it is a fiasco
Speaker:because there's such a sadness
Speaker:and melancholy to all James Blunt
Speaker:songs. By the end of it, you're
Speaker:doubting your existence as a person.
Speaker:You're like, why? My family, my
Speaker:life? What does this all mean?
Speaker:Like, my parents are going to pass?
Speaker:Oh my God, it's terrible.
Speaker:And then go to sleep for your 415
Speaker:little wake-up call.
Speaker:I know, I know.
Speaker:I don't know if I can have that
Speaker:discipline, but I'm definitely
Speaker:missing gym exercise.
Speaker:I have things on a Saturday and a
Speaker:Sunday, but to not do
Speaker:anything all week, I'm gonna have to
Speaker:figure it out and give myself
Speaker:permission to, I can't do a
Speaker:415 wake-up.
Speaker:Yeah, I know.
Speaker:It's such a lifestyle thing.
Speaker:Like, you have to be into the
Speaker:shtick. And if you're not, it's
Speaker:impossible to do.
Speaker:There's no way, but maybe lunchtime.
Speaker:This tech shit is driving me crazy.
Speaker:Like new computer, new everything,
Speaker:and it just slows you down.
Speaker:I feel like so much of this week has
Speaker:been fighting my mouse.
Speaker:Oh, and the other thing that,
Speaker:so the office is nice other than
Speaker:the fact that it's miles away, it
Speaker:has air conditioning.
Speaker:It was a WeWork and
Speaker:now WeWork had stopped
Speaker:investing in the building and a
Speaker:new company has taken it over.
Speaker:And is putting some level of
Speaker:investment in, but again,
Speaker:margins and trying to make it work.
Speaker:The security is dreadful.
Speaker:Like there are all the little green
Speaker:buttons that you should use to open
Speaker:up the doors
Speaker:between like the main shaft
Speaker:of the building and the work areas.
Speaker:None of those are locked.
Speaker:So you can just go in and out of
Speaker:everything. There's no need for
Speaker:any level of security.
Speaker:Like if there's any sort of
Speaker:physical audit for.
Speaker:Sock 2 or ISO or whatever, like
Speaker:the whole building would fail.
Speaker:And then we have these
Speaker:electric locks for our doors,
Speaker:you know, and you have your app.
Speaker:My app and six other people in the
Speaker:company's apps just will not work
Speaker:and we can't get in.
Speaker:And so I'm getting to office a bit
Speaker:earlier than everybody else in the
Speaker:team and can't get into
Speaker:the office, go downstairs,
Speaker:upstairs, unload the app, reload the
Speaker:app. Log in, log out,
Speaker:finally get it to work.
Speaker:Yay, next day, nothing works again.
Speaker:They gave me a physical pass and
Speaker:they wanted to charge me 50 pounds
Speaker:for the physical pass.
Speaker:I actually saw red for a second.
Speaker:50 pounds.
Speaker:I was like, because you can't
Speaker:get your technology to work.
Speaker:So I was, like, no, you're just
Speaker:giving me a pass.
Speaker:Or I'll pay 50 pounds for the pass,
Speaker:but you'll give me the month's
Speaker:rent for free, because I
Speaker:can't actually access my office.
Speaker:So they gave me the card.
Speaker:I was very excited about the card,
Speaker:didn't work.
Speaker:Okay, that is
Speaker:very frustrating.
Speaker:So between trying to use
Speaker:a mouse that isn't the standard
Speaker:mouse and doesn't slide sideways
Speaker:and do the rest and not being able
Speaker:to get into the office or just like
Speaker:spending, I'm there at half
Speaker:eight trying to get some work done
Speaker:before meetings and then spending 50
Speaker:minutes to get in to the office.
Speaker:This is like the pointless
Speaker:time in my day.
Speaker:I think I always cared about
Speaker:maximizing time, but somehow
Speaker:first week of being a CEO.
Speaker:I notice every second so
Speaker:much more because there's so much
Speaker:stuff I want to do as quickly as
Speaker:possible.
Speaker:I know what you're saying,
Speaker:especially in our state
Speaker:of life, not sure what the word is
Speaker:exactly, but you know what
Speaker:needs to get done and there's
Speaker:limited time and you want to make
Speaker:the most of your time.
Speaker:So having to waste your time on
Speaker:stuff that is either should be
Speaker:solved already or just like
Speaker:some of these introduction quibbles
Speaker:you're having feels just like a huge
Speaker:distraction that's unnecessary.
Speaker:Thank you very much.
Speaker:And also just like kind of make the
Speaker:office nicer, get some plants in,
Speaker:some storage.
Speaker:It's interesting from a founder
Speaker:perspective, because through my
Speaker:consulting time, I went to a variety
Speaker:of offices and you can really see
Speaker:the culture from the founder,
Speaker:because he's usually the founder
Speaker:that either inhibits this kind
Speaker:of thing or wants to really spend
Speaker:time on it. So as an example, when I
Speaker:worked at Trent with Jeff, he was
Speaker:very visual and creative and he
Speaker:really wanted to spend time and
Speaker:effort to create a fantastic
Speaker:environment that was well set up
Speaker:with plants and visuals of
Speaker:all sorts.
Speaker:And I remember that I think for one
Speaker:of our off sites, I don't know what
Speaker:possessed to do this, but we
Speaker:ordered.
Speaker:Massive block letters the
Speaker:name Trent but like in huge foam
Speaker:letters and he just placed them up
Speaker:near where the stage was these are
Speaker:Trent people why do we have like
Speaker:massive Trent letters for no
Speaker:particular reason other than they're
Speaker:huge and cool
Speaker:Well, that is a reason that is 100%
Speaker:a reason.
Speaker:Yeah, I didn't think I
Speaker:was one of those office people, but
Speaker:I am one of those office.
Speaker:People I walked in and there are
Speaker:these weird beanbag chairs and
Speaker:a dead plant and no
Speaker:storage and a sign that doesn't
Speaker:light up.
Speaker:Yeah. Let's get rid of the dead
Speaker:plants.
Speaker:And let's
Speaker:get serviced office, so we can't do
Speaker:loads of cool stuff.
Speaker:But I do want to see if maybe we can
Speaker:paint or do something just to make
Speaker:it not just be all these white
Speaker:walls.
Speaker:But there's definitely nice storage,
Speaker:plants, tidy.
Speaker:There's also these just weird boxes
Speaker:and corners because there's no
Speaker:storage right now.
Speaker:And so that's why a long
Speaker:thing of low storage is just
Speaker:key. So apparently I am
Speaker:one of those people.
Speaker:Okay, well, I mean, you're the CEO
Speaker:of the company, so you care about
Speaker:this kind of thing to ensure that
Speaker:it's a good environment for people
Speaker:to work in, especially if they're
Speaker:coming into the office twice a week.
Speaker:We hired our office manager two
Speaker:months ago, and he's now having an
Speaker:impact on the office look and feel,
Speaker:which is fantastic.
Speaker:I don't know how this even came up
Speaker:as a thing.
Speaker:We have a Sangria tray trolley
Speaker:that now goes around every Thursday,
Speaker:or not sorry, not every Thursday.
Speaker:Once a month for the all hands was a
Speaker:special event, the sangria trolley.
Speaker:Goes around at 3, 3.30 or something
Speaker:like that to like offer drinks to
Speaker:people.
Speaker:Yeah, to have those things
Speaker:that make a difference in little
Speaker:rituals and a bit of fun.
Speaker:Oh, and you have a male office
Speaker:manager. That sounds different
Speaker:and encouraging.
Speaker:Yeah, and the lie manager is a
Speaker:female if that makes a difference.
Speaker:I don't know, but it's just like
Speaker:every office manager I've ever heard
Speaker:of anywhere is a woman, so exciting.
Speaker:It's been several weeks past now,
Speaker:but I am curious, I guess, now that
Speaker:we're catching up again.
Speaker:The CEO roundtable retreat
Speaker:that you've gone to.
Speaker:So just for the listeners, there's a
Speaker:CEO round table organization, which
Speaker:of course Divinia runs.
Speaker:Once a year, she puts on a retreat,
Speaker:which is in some foreign country,
Speaker:and it's three, four, five days
Speaker:of CEOs talking about CEO things,
Speaker:presumably.
Speaker:Workshops, lots of workshops,
Speaker:getting to know each other.
Speaker:Dagmar Aldridge,
Speaker:Dags also is the other coach
Speaker:on it and it's like a really nice,
Speaker:they come from two different schools
Speaker:or philosophies for their
Speaker:coaching, but they're very
Speaker:complimentary and it was nice to get
Speaker:both views and you
Speaker:could kind of see like the
Speaker:frameworks of one.
Speaker:Overlapping with the frameworks of
Speaker:the other. So you get a more
Speaker:three-dimensional view of the world
Speaker:rather than what can be quite
Speaker:dogmatic if you're only with one
Speaker:view. So that was really good.
Speaker:Meeting all of the COOs,
Speaker:getting to know each other, awesome.
Speaker:So Divinia's training and background
Speaker:now where she's really focusing is
Speaker:transactional analysis, which if you
Speaker:are interested in, go and have a
Speaker:look. If you're a COO roundtable
Speaker:Remember, she has loads of workshops
Speaker:on it.
Speaker:And it's very much a way of
Speaker:structuring or making sense
Speaker:of the way we
Speaker:interact with each other.
Speaker:So every interaction between a human
Speaker:is a transaction.
Speaker:So you're looking at those
Speaker:transactions.
Speaker:So if you've heard of the drama
Speaker:triangle that comes from
Speaker:T.A., if you heard of
Speaker:I'm okay, you're okay,
Speaker:or I'm you're not okay kind of
Speaker:framework, that's another
Speaker:transactional analysis.
Speaker:Are you the being a parent, a child,
Speaker:or an adult in a relationship?
Speaker:Like which one's popping up.
Speaker:Those are all TA forms and
Speaker:concepts. So we did quite a bit on
Speaker:the drama triangle and in
Speaker:it, there are three players.
Speaker:There's the persecutor, the victim,
Speaker:and the rescuer.
Speaker:Apparently, COOs tend to be the
Speaker:rescuers.
Speaker:Then I was trying to understand the
Speaker:rescuing mindset.
Speaker:I was just like, I just don't get it
Speaker:over and over again.
Speaker:Then Davini is like, okay, I'll give
Speaker:you an example. She gave an example
Speaker:if she was in a conversation and
Speaker:one person.
Speaker:Was slagging off another person
Speaker:who the other person liked.
Speaker:The person they were both talking
Speaker:about was not in the call, but one
Speaker:person liked them and one person
Speaker:didn't like them.
Speaker:They started to get a bit tension
Speaker:full, and then Divinia found that
Speaker:uncomfortable, and so then she was
Speaker:trying to rescue the two people, but
Speaker:without being explicit of, I
Speaker:feel uncomfortable.
Speaker:You seem to be.
Speaker:It's just defending one person
Speaker:and the other person feels like a
Speaker:victim, and they're defending the
Speaker:other. Then you get this
Speaker:weird dynamic where nobody's happy
Speaker:and everybody's being shut down.
Speaker:Things are not being said.
Speaker:And I was like, yeah, I think I
Speaker:don't understand this because I am
Speaker:not a rescuer.
Speaker:I have zero inclination.
Speaker:Because apparently you have kind of
Speaker:your default and you can change
Speaker:which part of the dynamic you are,
Speaker:but you tend to default into
Speaker:one role when you enter the
Speaker:drama triangle.
Speaker:And my default is
Speaker:definitely persecutor.
Speaker:I'll be like, why did you make
Speaker:that mistake or what makes you think
Speaker:that?
Speaker:There's tension between two other
Speaker:people. I am perfectly happy to let
Speaker:those two people sort it
Speaker:out. I don't need to rescue them
Speaker:at all. I'm there for the ride.
Speaker:So the opposite of a drama triangle
Speaker:is, I don't know, like a virtuous
Speaker:triangle.
Speaker:I can remember the exact wording
Speaker:where you do the opposite.
Speaker:And so instead of being the rescuer
Speaker:who doesn't realize why they're in
Speaker:there waiting in and making
Speaker:stuff worse and
Speaker:disempowering the other two people,
Speaker:you name it.
Speaker:You say, there's a lot of tension
Speaker:here. I'm feeling this.
Speaker:My interpretation is this and this.
Speaker:How do we bridge the gap?
Speaker:And then you can turn it into a
Speaker:better example.
Speaker:So Drama Triangle was interesting.
Speaker:And then DAGS did
Speaker:something on how to make decisions
Speaker:with your three brains
Speaker:and also just the concept of three
Speaker:brains.
Speaker:We talk a lot about our brain and
Speaker:our gut.
Speaker:And we also talk about our heart,
Speaker:but we kind of, at least for I
Speaker:kind of think about it as like...
Speaker:Above the shoulder line and below
Speaker:the shoulder line, so
Speaker:brain and body, but actually
Speaker:separating it between brain,
Speaker:heart, and gut as our three
Speaker:different brains. And there's
Speaker:actually nerve centers in the three.
Speaker:So it was around if you're
Speaker:making a decision,
Speaker:a process where you start
Speaker:with your heart and
Speaker:why does this matter to me or what
Speaker:values in me is this reflecting.
Speaker:So you really get the point of
Speaker:purpose in the decision.
Speaker:Then you go to your brain on
Speaker:what are the best options,
Speaker:the pros, the cons, the whatever,
Speaker:do your analytical thinking, then
Speaker:back down to your heart of
Speaker:which one is most aligned with
Speaker:me and which one
Speaker:aligns with who I am, my values,
Speaker:my purpose.
Speaker:Purpose with a small P, by the way,
Speaker:not like a big ordeal.
Speaker:Then you got down to you gut and
Speaker:say what's the one thing that
Speaker:I can do?
Speaker:What's the action?
Speaker:Apparently, your heart is where you
Speaker:feel things and your gut is where
Speaker:your action comes from.
Speaker:So if you've made a decision with
Speaker:your head and then you don't do
Speaker:anything, it's most likely because
Speaker:your gut doesn't think it's right.
Speaker:So you check in with your gut on
Speaker:what makes the most sense,
Speaker:what's the next action, and
Speaker:then, you go back to your heart to
Speaker:consolidate it.
Speaker:We did it in teams to
Speaker:try it on what's a goal that we
Speaker:want and how are we going to to that
Speaker:goal, what's the plan,
Speaker:and did that process, and it was
Speaker:really...
Speaker:It can be much shorter than me
Speaker:explaining it to you, but it
Speaker:was quite a nice way of
Speaker:working it through and it
Speaker:feels like a very integrated answer
Speaker:in the end.
Speaker:So we have got a great topic for
Speaker:today, which is what scale up
Speaker:founders go through.
Speaker:And we have a bit of an unusual
Speaker:episode today with somewhat of
Speaker:a monolog from Johnny Birch on his
Speaker:reflections as a former founder CEO.
Speaker:So he's the former CEO of
Speaker:progression, which was acquired by
Speaker:career minds last year, and
Speaker:his company was backed by local
Speaker:globe and connect ventures to
Speaker:well-respected VCs.
Speaker:To VCs in Matomic.
Speaker:Oh, is that true?
Speaker:I didn't know that. Yeah.
Speaker:Okay. The world's a liar.
Speaker:So off the back of that monolog that
Speaker:he did, it was very engaging and
Speaker:it kind of inspired Bethany and I to
Speaker:think about this in the sense of
Speaker:this episode or this preamble, to
Speaker:maybe talk about this a bit more,
Speaker:especially as CEOs to date.
Speaker:What I wanted to start with was
Speaker:founders.
Speaker:Are kept up at night for
Speaker:a variety of reasons as we know,
Speaker:which is the cash runway situation,
Speaker:the next quarter's targets
Speaker:and trying to achieve those,
Speaker:that critical hire that needs to
Speaker:come into the company.
Speaker:So they're constantly thinking about
Speaker:all this stuff all the time.
Speaker:How can the CEO help with that,
Speaker:do you think?
Speaker:So much of it is things that we've
Speaker:spoken about before, like
Speaker:building trust, how do you
Speaker:build the trust quickly?
Speaker:How do you become the trusted
Speaker:advisor and fill in
Speaker:the missing gaps for the CEO?
Speaker:Oh, this is another thing that came
Speaker:up in the retreat
Speaker:that I hadn't thought about before
Speaker:which is who's your thinking
Speaker:partner?
Speaker:And for a
Speaker:CEO, the COO
Speaker:should be the thinking partner.
Speaker:I absolutely agree with this
Speaker:building that trust with the CEO to
Speaker:have conversations they wouldn't
Speaker:otherwise have with anyone else and
Speaker:you being a bit of like a release
Speaker:valve and also a thought partner to
Speaker:think about things that they may be
Speaker:uncomfortable sharing with others or
Speaker:with the group at large being in
Speaker:that position is critical
Speaker:to help with that founder to
Speaker:sleep at night, I think.
Speaker:I think everybody needs a thinking
Speaker:partner, and is the
Speaker:CEO, the COO's thinking partner?
Speaker:Yes and no.
Speaker:It's almost like a question, who
Speaker:is your thinking partner and
Speaker:by default, if you're
Speaker:somebody else's, does that mean that
Speaker:they're yours or do you need your
Speaker:own?
Speaker:True. So as a CEO, do you mean?
Speaker:So who would I go to?
Speaker:That's a good question, actually.
Speaker:I mean, you're right, because I kind
Speaker:of see myself more as the
Speaker:trusted thought partner to the CEO,
Speaker:because the CEOs that I tend to work
Speaker:with nowadays at least generally are
Speaker:more first-time founders for the
Speaker:most part, whereas I've been through
Speaker:this now three, four times.
Speaker:So I've a bit more like experienced
Speaker:lens on things by which I think
Speaker:I'm a valuable partner to help them
Speaker:think through issues effectively.
Speaker:However, for myself.
Speaker:I definitely go to externals of
Speaker:people that I have long-term
Speaker:relationships with, that I have a
Speaker:lot of respect for, that usually
Speaker:have managed to be in some form in
Speaker:the past.
Speaker:We have Eric Collins as an example
Speaker:who's been on the show where he's 10
Speaker:years my senior and he was
Speaker:always this presence around me
Speaker:from a leader point of view.
Speaker:Where he was well-respected, had a
Speaker:lot of skills that I didn't have.
Speaker:A lot of my aspirations were to be
Speaker:more like him in some ways, which
Speaker:kind of sounds weird, but he would
Speaker:always be there for me to help me
Speaker:over time and had a lot of useful
Speaker:things to say.
Speaker:So that kind of network effect of
Speaker:mentors that reside outside the
Speaker:company is my go-to.
Speaker:But I wonder, is a thinking partner
Speaker:a mentor? Could be, but
Speaker:it could also be, could it be
Speaker:somebody in your team
Speaker:who is your trusted deputy?
Speaker:True.
Speaker:Yeah, actually, that's a good point.
Speaker:I think about this maybe in a
Speaker:different way.
Speaker:But I think within the company,
Speaker:yeah, you're right.
Speaker:I'm thinking back to my former
Speaker:company, the head of operations that
Speaker:we had brought in, she was my
Speaker:thinking partner. We were a tag team
Speaker:together.
Speaker:She had a lot of skills that I
Speaker:didn't have. So I'd very much bounce
Speaker:things off her, especially for
Speaker:company communication purposes, you
Speaker:know, to think about the submit
Speaker:deeper in terms of how we
Speaker:communicate, policy change or
Speaker:whatever. And she was awesome for
Speaker:that stuff.
Speaker:Yeah, so I guess I'd say to
Speaker:everyone, think about who's your
Speaker:thinking partner and who are you a
Speaker:thinking partner to?
Speaker:Yep, I love that.
Speaker:The other one I was thinking about
Speaker:was this idea of, this comes up
Speaker:quite frequently in the context of a
Speaker:CEO, which is being a force
Speaker:multiplier for the
Speaker:CEO and for the company and
Speaker:taking the existing plate that
Speaker:exists where things can get done for
Speaker:the company and expanding that plate
Speaker:in some form.
Speaker:What do you make of that concept in
Speaker:terms of helping the CEO to
Speaker:deal with their nightmare of issues?
Speaker:It's interesting moving from
Speaker:COO to CEO because
Speaker:of having that strong operator
Speaker:background.
Speaker:For me, there's a bit of a default
Speaker:that I can just get it done, but
Speaker:it's not the best use of my
Speaker:time.
Speaker:And I have somebody
Speaker:joining on Monday and I'm very
Speaker:much looking forward to
Speaker:bringing an operator into the
Speaker:business so that I'm not by default
Speaker:doing it all.
Speaker:One of the things that an operator
Speaker:is really good at is bringing in
Speaker:structure. And if you're a first
Speaker:time.
Speaker:COO or ops person in
Speaker:what presumably will be a very
Speaker:chaotic business, getting people
Speaker:aligned, getting rid
Speaker:of some of everybody's
Speaker:mental load, not by
Speaker:automation, but like we
Speaker:have a weekly meeting and this is a
Speaker:weekly meeting agenda and we know
Speaker:this is what we talk about.
Speaker:We have a monthly meeting, this is
Speaker:where we're going to cover the monthly
Speaker:meeting. These are the standard
Speaker:reports.
Speaker:This is how we figure out the
Speaker:process for what our objectives for
Speaker:the month quarter year
Speaker:are like.
Speaker:You can add in a lot of structured
Speaker:thinking that means that
Speaker:it frees people up to have creative
Speaker:thoughts.
Speaker:Yep, I would absolutely agree with
Speaker:that. And I think that kind of
Speaker:dovetails into the next question
Speaker:just around founders and
Speaker:CEOs.
Speaker:As the company grows in size,
Speaker:feeling like they're losing control.
Speaker:They don't understand what's
Speaker:happening anymore, and they feel the
Speaker:need to dive into the minutiae
Speaker:detail to set directions which they
Speaker:don't really need to do anymore, and
Speaker:that whole losing control thing,
Speaker:how to deal with that.
Speaker:And I think one aspect of responding
Speaker:to that is exactly what you just
Speaker:said right now, which is setting the
Speaker:rhythms for the company.
Speaker:So if you have an operating rhythm
Speaker:for the companies where there is
Speaker:some level of structure and process
Speaker:to the team meetings, the leadership
Speaker:meetings.
Speaker:I just introduced recently a finance
Speaker:operating rhythm to my more recent
Speaker:company.
Speaker:Just really understanding what, in
Speaker:this case, what is finance supposed
Speaker:to be doing expectation wise for
Speaker:the rest of leadership and for the
Speaker:organization in terms
Speaker:of when the actuals come in,
Speaker:when the numbers are released
Speaker:to the company in different forms in
Speaker:terms of helping people understand
Speaker:what's happened over the past month
Speaker:or past quarter, the budgeting
Speaker:process and the expectations on a
Speaker:monthly basis with the leaders of
Speaker:the business. Just like setting
Speaker:kind of like basic rhythms
Speaker:of stuff to happen, so it's clear
Speaker:that things are happening and
Speaker:that there is an evolving,
Speaker:there's a way in which things can be
Speaker:communicated whereby the CEO of the
Speaker:business doesn't need to talk to
Speaker:every single person all the time
Speaker:about everything.
Speaker:Yeah. And then there's also just to
Speaker:plug a piece of content that
Speaker:our subscribers can now access,
Speaker:which is the
Speaker:SAS flywheel that
Speaker:I've put together and spoken about a
Speaker:few times, along with all of
Speaker:the KPIs within that,
Speaker:is for me, a very good way
Speaker:of understanding and diagnosing
Speaker:where you need to dig in and
Speaker:dive into.
Speaker:Because working on the business
Speaker:does mean that you
Speaker:know.
Speaker:There are areas that are not
Speaker:performing well and you do need to
Speaker:dive deep and you do need talk to
Speaker:everyone and you need to look at the
Speaker:next layer of numbers and
Speaker:metrics and what's going wrong.
Speaker:But you just can't do that across
Speaker:the whole business all the time,
Speaker:but you can unlock a lot by
Speaker:focusing on the problem areas, but
Speaker:looking at and having a
Speaker:consistent set of weekly,
Speaker:monthly, quarterly, whatever makes
Speaker:sense for the cadence of your
Speaker:business, numbers that
Speaker:are the same and focus on the
Speaker:interconnects of your business.
Speaker:Mean that you can diagnose where
Speaker:you need to dig deep.
Speaker:And so if you're curious about what
Speaker:all those metrics are and how to do
Speaker:that, become a subscriber and
Speaker:you will get the content.
Speaker:I love that plug, so that's
Speaker:fantastic.
Speaker:I think you're exactly right.
Speaker:For the BAU of the business on
Speaker:a month-to-month basis, and there's
Speaker:clear established touch points of
Speaker:understanding what is going on so
Speaker:you don't have to talk to everyone.
Speaker:That's part one, and then part two
Speaker:is what you just said, which is when
Speaker:there is problems, there's
Speaker:a vehicle structure-wise to allow
Speaker:those problems to be discussed at a
Speaker:deeper level.
Speaker:So whether it's kind of OKR check-in
Speaker:sessions or a leadership offsite
Speaker:where there's a special deep dive
Speaker:going on because of things that have
Speaker:been highlighted or whatever,
Speaker:there's like an additional layer of
Speaker:like so-called structure that allows
Speaker:those things to occur.
Speaker:But then also, just more broadly to
Speaker:your point, like on the month-to-month
Speaker:basis, when people.
Speaker:The sea on this case can see what is
Speaker:going on in the business in terms of
Speaker:numbers of performance if they
Speaker:aren't happy with something.
Speaker:Then they can do the obvious thing
Speaker:was just have a second layer of
Speaker:conversations distinctly with the
Speaker:individuals that they choose to and
Speaker:that's perfectly fine as well but i
Speaker:think it's this rhythm thing that
Speaker:really is the crux of it to
Speaker:allow the company to grow and scale
Speaker:allow the CEO to not have to
Speaker:micromanage.
Speaker:Yeah. And also freeze everybody
Speaker:else's brains to not be micromanaged
Speaker:all the time, because that's where
Speaker:the fear comes in.
Speaker:And then people shut down.
Speaker:So in this pot, this other idea
Speaker:of losing control, delegation,
Speaker:and this response of, well,
Speaker:the approach to, one of the
Speaker:approaches to solve that is to
Speaker:kind of talk through the CEO.
Speaker:Look, we're bringing in leaders of
Speaker:the business that are professionals
Speaker:of what they do.
Speaker:They have to be imbued at the outset
Speaker:with trust, but also over
Speaker:time, that trust needs to be
Speaker:verified as it were.
Speaker:So it's a bit of this trust and
Speaker:verify concept.
Speaker:Do you like that?
Speaker:We have to, particularly in the
Speaker:beginning, because people interview
Speaker:well if you get to a certain level.
Speaker:Salespeople do it the best of
Speaker:everyone, but execs will interview
Speaker:well, communicate well, say the
Speaker:right things, but they might just
Speaker:not be able to actually execute on
Speaker:anything that they say.
Speaker:Or one of the ones that I
Speaker:find quite
Speaker:common, and I have been
Speaker:victim to it, and victim Did I miss
Speaker:the right word?
Speaker:Is people who are really good at
Speaker:upward management, but their teams
Speaker:hate them.
Speaker:And hearing about from their
Speaker:teams why they're hated and
Speaker:then trying to figure out is it a
Speaker:team that just doesn't like change
Speaker:and accountability or
Speaker:is that leader an asshole.
Speaker:And if the leader is really good in
Speaker:upward management there's a
Speaker:disconnect between the two and so
Speaker:all tend to be like for the
Speaker:team no you're just being a bit
Speaker:sensitive like settle in.
Speaker:But quite often it's because the
Speaker:leader is actually a bad leader,
Speaker:which isn't a delegation thing.
Speaker:It's slightly different, but it's
Speaker:like, I guess just like when you get
Speaker:a new hire, how do you make sure
Speaker:that they're a good fit?
Speaker:And the delegation part is
Speaker:an element of that.
Speaker:But I guess it's just the beginning
Speaker:of your question, you're like
Speaker:default trust.
Speaker:And I do default trust people,
Speaker:but early hires, you just
Speaker:have to be so careful, particularly
Speaker:for leaders.
Speaker:And I don't know how to get that
Speaker:right. And then in terms of the
Speaker:delegation, my favorite.
Speaker:Framework for delegation still
Speaker:is higher output management.
Speaker:And so I think rather than repeating
Speaker:it again, I'll just say to people,
Speaker:if you haven't read High Output
Speaker:Management by Andy Gove,
Speaker:go and read it.
Speaker:Read the delegation section.
Speaker:I feel like I need to read that now.
Speaker:You do.
Speaker:It's really helpful because it's
Speaker:around, it's a
Speaker:multi-stage approach.
Speaker:He's laid it out perfectly.
Speaker:I mean, it is a super dry book, but
Speaker:it has all of the fundamentals.
Speaker:And if you can get through the
Speaker:beginning egg machine section,
Speaker:the rest of it's really good, or
Speaker:save yourself some time and go
Speaker:search it online and just say, what
Speaker:does Andy Gove say about delegation?
Speaker:It'll pull it up.
Speaker:And then last question to you.
Speaker:So now that you're moving on
Speaker:to the CEO position, you have
Speaker:a bit of, we're talking about
Speaker:founder CEOs.
Speaker:So we have the exact kind of
Speaker:opposite scenario happening here,
Speaker:which is you're a long time CEO,
Speaker:a long-time operator, you've done
Speaker:the revenue stuff before, and we
Speaker:think about going into this CEO
Speaker:seat. What is that you need, do you
Speaker:think, to be as effective as
Speaker:you can be as a CEO of the
Speaker:company going forward?
Speaker:Yeah, I have a couple.
Speaker:So one is to bring an operator
Speaker:in, because my default
Speaker:will be to be an operator, and
Speaker:then I'm not being CEO.
Speaker:And so I need to bring somebody in
Speaker:who can do that
Speaker:for me and take on
Speaker:the operator role.
Speaker:I might not need as fully fledged
Speaker:as COO or operator
Speaker:as a first time founder
Speaker:who doesn't know how the business
Speaker:works. Like, you know, I can.
Speaker:Guide what I'm looking for, but I
Speaker:ultimately need somebody who can do
Speaker:that really well, and I can step
Speaker:away from it.
Speaker:Then the other part that I
Speaker:know, if I just look in retrospect
Speaker:of what's worked well for me with
Speaker:founder CEOs or CEOs
Speaker:in the past, is they
Speaker:have been amazing salespeople.
Speaker:Not just have the skill of it,
Speaker:but what they both
Speaker:can do is understand
Speaker:intuitively
Speaker:the motivations of other humans
Speaker:without having to ask questions.
Speaker:I feel like in a meeting, they
Speaker:just can read on the foreheads of
Speaker:every person what
Speaker:their motivation is, and then they
Speaker:can just play to that motivation and
Speaker:get deals done because they
Speaker:talk to other people's souls.
Speaker:I don't have that skill, but it's
Speaker:a great skill to have when you're
Speaker:trying to find product market fit
Speaker:and grow quickly.
Speaker:So those are the skills that I
Speaker:no are my gaps.
Speaker:Or if I look at what has been
Speaker:successful in other partnerships are
Speaker:the areas.
Speaker:And then finally,
Speaker:which I think I already have, but
Speaker:it's a skill that we need,
Speaker:is I'm not technical,
Speaker:but I can understand technical
Speaker:concepts.
Speaker:But I don't always know who and can
Speaker:come up with technical ideas, but
Speaker:don't know if they're real or not.
Speaker:And so a leader who
Speaker:can meet me somewhere on that
Speaker:bridge.
Speaker:And can tell me when I'm full of
Speaker:shit and actually understand my
Speaker:ideas and take them when they're
Speaker:good ones and isn't
Speaker:so in the weeds.
Speaker:And if I think about like who have I
Speaker:partnered with to be successful in a
Speaker:growing a business and what are the
Speaker:skills that have worked
Speaker:best for me, those would be those
Speaker:areas.
Speaker:That's perfect, yeah, that seems
Speaker:like your dream team set
Speaker:up as you launch into the next
Speaker:couple of quarters.
Speaker:All right, thank you for that.
Speaker:So let's park it here, let's move on
Speaker:to our monolog with
Speaker:Johnny Burch.
Speaker:I'm honestly asking myself,
Speaker:do I want to be a CEO again?
Speaker:There's so much to love about it,
Speaker:but it was incredibly difficult.
Speaker:So I was a designer before I was
Speaker:just a CEO.
Speaker:Design is, maybe every
Speaker:role is a unique flower,
Speaker:but designers are, I think,
Speaker:are quite sort of a unique role and
Speaker:exist in a space that is
Speaker:very gut-driven.
Speaker:Everyone has an opinion.
Speaker:The data is...
Speaker:Over there somewhere, but really
Speaker:it's about like, how does it feel?
Speaker:And you get thrown into a world
Speaker:where, and probably as a
Speaker:designer, you've been told how good
Speaker:you are at this thing and
Speaker:had smoke blown up your ass a
Speaker:reasonable amount over your career
Speaker:to date.
Speaker:So then to hit this hard
Speaker:reality that the market doesn't give
Speaker:a shit and the
Speaker:extraordinary amount of, so we
Speaker:raised money twice.
Speaker:So, you know, I must have spoken to
Speaker:probably order of magnitude 50 VCs
Speaker:pitched to 50 VCS and.
Speaker:Enormous amount of rejection and
Speaker:just like wondering what you're even
Speaker:doing with your life and shouldn't
Speaker:you have just been a design director
Speaker:at that company and that would have
Speaker:been easy and so all of this kind of
Speaker:stuff sort of goes back as
Speaker:I've left I've started to go well
Speaker:I could choose to not do that again
Speaker:and I probably will do it
Speaker:again quite honestly because there's
Speaker:nothing quite like it but it's a
Speaker:fascinating role I think it's well
Speaker:defined by the people as you're
Speaker:about the vision and hiring
Speaker:and fundraising, you
Speaker:know, there's very few jobs that
Speaker:are just the most important thing
Speaker:for you to do.
Speaker:And it's so much of it is
Speaker:storytelling and being always
Speaker:up and always like
Speaker:pumped and projecting
Speaker:confidence and all of that kind of
Speaker:stuff, even if you're having a bad
Speaker:day and days can go from good to
Speaker:bad to good to all at once
Speaker:in that role.
Speaker:So it's a big performance and it's
Speaker:not performance. It's not a
Speaker:performance in the sense of it's not
Speaker:real but it's like You're
Speaker:pitching everyone, whether it's, you
Speaker:know, the customers early stage,
Speaker:you're pitching all of the, all of
Speaker:your prospects, you're pitching your
Speaker:new hires on a bloke and a dream,
Speaker:you know, or two
Speaker:blokes in our case, or women or
Speaker:whatever, but like there's no
Speaker:brand behind you.
Speaker:I came from Deliveroo where it's
Speaker:like, you just had to say Deliver
Speaker:and they'd be like, okay, well, I'm
Speaker:going to talk to you about this.
Speaker:Suddenly it's just like, I promise
Speaker:this is going to be a thing.
Speaker:It's just a completely fascinating,
Speaker:fascinating, incredibly difficult.
Speaker:I probably still haven't processed
Speaker:all of it five months after putting
Speaker:down my pen.
Speaker:So it has changed
Speaker:my brain though and I'm not
Speaker:sure, maybe things
Speaker:will change, I'm not sure I could
Speaker:just be a designer anymore.
Speaker:How has it changed your brain?
Speaker:Seen too much.
Speaker:A thousand yards there.
Speaker:I just think the biggest we'd
Speaker:ever been was like 19 people.
Speaker:So you know, we were a small
Speaker:company, but I started to get
Speaker:this. I don't know how to say this
Speaker:without sounding like I like the
Speaker:power trip, but it sort of is like
Speaker:the amount of influence you can have
Speaker:over something is exciting.
Speaker:And it's also what makes it so hard.
Speaker:And you can always put in more work
Speaker:and you never know quite if you've
Speaker:got the right answer and you usually
Speaker:don't find out for a year after
Speaker:you've made the decision.
Speaker:You have very few levers but you
Speaker:need to execute them perfectly.
Speaker:There's so many benchmarks,
Speaker:you can see all of the other people
Speaker:that are doing it well and
Speaker:you're completely on your own.
Speaker:So that makes it sound bad but
Speaker:I think that's also what makes it so
Speaker:exciting basically, is
Speaker:I've always been drawn to
Speaker:being in smaller
Speaker:organizations because of the amount
Speaker:of impact that I can have in that
Speaker:organization relative to its size
Speaker:and I think this is sort of the An
Speaker:example of that, so...
Speaker:Yeah, I would just say like,
Speaker:you know, you find out a lot about
Speaker:yourself and you very quickly find
Speaker:out what you're not good at, I'd
Speaker:say.
Speaker:And you can avoid that for a lot of
Speaker:your life if you sit in big
Speaker:organizations, probably.
Speaker:So if you want to find that out,
Speaker:then I would recommend it.
Speaker:That was a very helpful question,
Speaker:Brandon, because I'm starting my
Speaker:first CEO role on
Speaker:the 11th of August.
Speaker:And so finding out about all
Speaker:the other CEOs and what they found
Speaker:easy and hard is very
Speaker:valuable. Thank you for sharing.
Speaker:So we are running out of time now,
Speaker:but if our listeners can only
Speaker:take one thing away from
Speaker:listening to you, what is
Speaker:that one thing?
Speaker:When you're thinking about HR
Speaker:things like people
Speaker:focused activities
Speaker:or whether it's performance or
Speaker:progression, career frameworks or
Speaker:anything in that space, just
Speaker:being really employee centric is
Speaker:important.
Speaker:And I think that HR team are
Speaker:actually good at that, but they're
Speaker:not always in a position is sad
Speaker:to say, not always in position where
Speaker:they can actually influence on their
Speaker:own. So as a leader,
Speaker:whatever decision either you are
Speaker:Thank you. Thank you for taking point.
Speaker:People are making on your behalf.
Speaker:You have to be there supporting
Speaker:it vocally, you
Speaker:have to be excited about it,
Speaker:you to be the person presenting it
Speaker:to the organization, you have
Speaker:to there in every performance review
Speaker:being supportive of
Speaker:the process and you have to pulling
Speaker:out the career frameworks.
Speaker:Point out people that are doing a
Speaker:good job and just got a promotion
Speaker:like it needs to be used
Speaker:by you all the time in
Speaker:order for people to feel like it's
Speaker:a thing and not just
Speaker:a fun project that HR
Speaker:worked on that quarter.
Speaker:So as a leader is so important
Speaker:and this goes really with anything.
Speaker:The example I always use for this
Speaker:which isn't in this space at
Speaker:Deliveroo, a guy called Mike Hudak
Speaker:who is now a founder of
Speaker:a company called Sling but He was at
Speaker:Facebook and then Deliveroo and then
Speaker:Monzo and in leadership roles,
Speaker:really brilliant guy.
Speaker:He decided that we should use
Speaker:Facebook at work, Facebook
Speaker:workplace.
Speaker:And we were a Slack company,
Speaker:you know, it was the Slack chaos.
Speaker:Like you literally couldn't get
Speaker:anything done because you were being
Speaker:pinged constantly on Slack.
Speaker:And he was like, we're going to do
Speaker:Facebook at work and everyone
Speaker:said, this is going to be terrible.
Speaker:We don't want this.
Speaker:And then he said, the only place
Speaker:I will go is Facebook.
Speaker:So if you want me to see something,
Speaker:you have to go there.
Speaker:And it felt like him just
Speaker:saying that and saying, I'm going to
Speaker:put my money where my mouth is, just
Speaker:the change was pretty much overnight
Speaker:and all the people that wanted to
Speaker:show off their projects or get
Speaker:some buy-in from senior stakeholders
Speaker:or whatever it was, was in
Speaker:there and then everyone else was in
Speaker:there, there was still like shit
Speaker:chat and Slack and you know, if you
Speaker:wanted to just like quickly talk to
Speaker:someone, you do that, but that's
Speaker:where it ended up being.
Speaker:That's where the culture was and
Speaker:that's where you would go for the
Speaker:big news.
Speaker:So I just think that that is if you
Speaker:want something to actually land, you
Speaker:have to stand by it as a leader and
Speaker:you can't just leave it to HR.
Speaker:It's really tough for them.
Speaker:Every HR leader will be thanking
Speaker:you. Yes.
Speaker:That's a wonderful way to finish
Speaker:things up.
Speaker:So thank you, Johnny Burch, for
Speaker:joining us on the operations room.
Speaker:If you like what you hear, please
Speaker:subscribe or leave us a comment and
Speaker:we will see you next week.
