71. Proactive Mental Health Strategies for Leaders
In this episode we discuss: How to tackle mental health in an organization. We are joined by Chris Hatfield, Mindset & Well-being Coach.
Love The Operations Room? Please support us by rating and reviewing it here.
We chat about the following with Chris Hatfield:
- What if naming your anxiety was the first step to taking back control?
- How can leaders foster vulnerability without losing authority?
- Is your ‘stress container’ full, and how do you know when it’s overflowing?
- Are we truly addressing the root of anxiety, or just applying quick fixes?
- What if managing mental health was less about avoidance and more about sitting with discomfort?
References
- https://www.linkedin.com/in/chrishatfieldsalespsyche/
- www.salespsyche.co.uk
Biography
A sales mindset and well-being Coach and Author of Sales Psyche. With over 15+ years of experience working with the likes of Meta, Google, Salesforce, Experian and O2. Focused on supporting salespeople and leaders in developing a healthy and high performing mind. Also founded a run community, Run Your Mind, that is focused on mental well-being.
To learn more about Beth and Brandon or to find out about sponsorship opportunities click here.
Summary
16:31 Understanding Anxiety
16:52 The Nature of Anxiety in Men
19:14 Coping Mechanisms for Anxiety
20:36 Proactive vs Reactive Approaches to Anxiety
22:46 Identifying When Anxiety Becomes a Problem
25:10 The Importance of Vulnerability in Leadership
29:01 Understanding the Stress Container Exercise
36:05 The Importance of Reflection and Action
37:59 Tools for Managers to Address Anxiety
34:14 Creating a Mental Health Culture in Organizations
39:18 Training Managers for Mental Health Awareness
42:49 Sales-Specific Strategies for Managing Stress
This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis:
Podcorn - https://podcorn.com/privacy
Transcript
Hello everyone, and welcome to
Speaker:another episode of The Operations
Speaker:Room. I am Brendan Bensinger, joined
Speaker:by my lovely co-host, Bethany
Speaker:Errors. How are things going,
Speaker:Bethany, today?
Speaker:Today I don't know where I am.
Speaker:I've been traveling so much.
Speaker:I was in India from
Speaker:Saturday trying to think.
Speaker:I clearly I'm jet lagged because I
Speaker:just don't even know what day of the
Speaker:week it is.
Speaker:Then flew home
Speaker:Wednesday night, got into Thursday,
Speaker:and now it's Friday. So I had a
Speaker:night in my bed.
Speaker:Yeah. So you're fresh on the jetlag?
Speaker:I would say.
Speaker:Yes. And also just like so excited
Speaker:to be in my bed because the week
Speaker:before I was in Manchester and was
Speaker:home for less than 12
Speaker:hours.
Speaker:So this is my second time sleeping
Speaker:in my bed in almost two weeks.
Speaker:But I am just exhausted.
Speaker:I don't think I was there long
Speaker:enough for jetlag, but clearly I was
Speaker:because I woke up at 5:00 this
Speaker:morning. I know for you, five is
Speaker:totally normal.
Speaker:It is not for me.
Speaker:So I'm just a bit groggy.
Speaker:So I did upgrade
Speaker:and take a business class
Speaker:flight home from Abu Dhabi.
Speaker:So the last leg from Abu Dhabi to
Speaker:London.
Speaker:And I'm always conflicted on
Speaker:business class. Like, do
Speaker:you stay awake and enjoy all the
Speaker:loveliness or do you take advantage
Speaker:of lying down flat and just ignore
Speaker:it all? And I went for the second
Speaker:option. This time we
Speaker:were boarding at 230
Speaker:in the morning and they oddly were
Speaker:telling us Good morning.
Speaker:As we boarded the plane, I was like,
Speaker:this, this is not good morning.
Speaker:This is the middle of the night.
Speaker:So I was in Manchester and I was in
Speaker:Jaipur.
Speaker:I love Jaipur.
Speaker:That city is awesome.
Speaker:Because it has somewhere between
Speaker:three and a half and 5 million
Speaker:people depending on what source
Speaker:you look at.
Speaker:So it's probably doubled in size
Speaker:since you were there, I would guess.
Speaker:And it's a small city as far
Speaker:as India is concerned.
Speaker:It's very much a tier two city.
Speaker:The traffic was unbelievable, the
Speaker:driving.
Speaker:At one point we were in tuk tuks
Speaker:because we one of the women
Speaker:who works with us
Speaker:was in charge of entertaining us on
Speaker:the Sunday.
Speaker:And so we went and saw everything
Speaker:in the Old City and then
Speaker:wanted to take us to a ceremony in a
Speaker:temple that was also in the old
Speaker:City. And we had to take off our
Speaker:shoes and run through just throngs
Speaker:of people. A lot of the team members
Speaker:were afraid to leave their shoes so
Speaker:that they're going to be stolen.
Speaker:And she just looked at them like
Speaker:slightly offensive and incredibly
Speaker:stupid. And she's like, Just leave
Speaker:your shoes.
Speaker:Don't take them with you.
Speaker:Unsurprisingly, they were still
Speaker:there when we came back.
Speaker:So we've got an amazing topic today,
Speaker:which is how to tackle mental health
Speaker:in an organization.
Speaker:We have the perfect guest for this,
Speaker:which is Chris Hadfield.
Speaker:He is the author of Cells Psyche and
Speaker:is a mindset and wellbeing coach.
Speaker:So before we get to Chris, I
Speaker:wanted to ask you a couple of
Speaker:questions. So the first one was
Speaker:sometimes not all the time, but on
Speaker:occasion the situation where
Speaker:you go to bed at night and your mind
Speaker:is racing, your mind is racing about
Speaker:work in terms of sensation
Speaker:of being overwhelmed, establish a
Speaker:ton of stuff to do and you're kind
Speaker:of worried a little bit.
Speaker:Or you've had a distinctly negative
Speaker:experience that day that you keep
Speaker:playing over your mind again and
Speaker:again, wondering how it could have
Speaker:been different this, that or the
Speaker:other. And the question is,
Speaker:how do you get yourself out of that
Speaker:state or how do you prevent that
Speaker:state from occurring in the first
Speaker:place? And I'll just give you one
Speaker:example that Chris dropped on us
Speaker:during the podcast and we'll hear a
Speaker:little bit later. But, you know, we
Speaker:talked about the the brain dump
Speaker:exercise, which is at the end of the
Speaker:day to go through your four
Speaker:quadrants. And as you described it,
Speaker:the four quadrants were a, to
Speaker:recognize what is pending.
Speaker:So just recognizing the
Speaker:tasks ahead of you in terms of the
Speaker:next day or the next week or what
Speaker:have you, reflecting on your wins
Speaker:that you had that day.
Speaker:Identify what the stressful moments
Speaker:were coming out of that day very
Speaker:specifically.
Speaker:And then to think about some of the
Speaker:solutions that you already have in
Speaker:mind and the whole point of this
Speaker:brain exercise, according to Chris,
Speaker:is just to get your mind in a state
Speaker:where it feels reassured,
Speaker:you've kind of put your mind in a
Speaker:position where you've kind of
Speaker:addressed it to some extent.
Speaker:The question back to you is, A, what
Speaker:do you think of that? But more
Speaker:broadly, what do you think about
Speaker:this kind of mind?
Speaker:Is racing nighttime scenario
Speaker:and how to deal with that?
Speaker:Well, so I took a class
Speaker:with Chris a couple of years ago
Speaker:and learned the brains of exercise.
Speaker:So I do sometimes use
Speaker:it. I don't want to after the class,
Speaker:I used it regularly and then
Speaker:realized that all four quadrants
Speaker:were kind of unnecessary
Speaker:and it was a bit too much.
Speaker:If I'm going to really, you know,
Speaker:have a huge amount on, I'll
Speaker:definitely do the pending
Speaker:just to make sure that I've captured
Speaker:it all.
Speaker:And quite often the
Speaker:the wins like I want spend a lot of
Speaker:time, but I'll just think through
Speaker:what are some of those wins.
Speaker:And part of that isn't necessarily
Speaker:for that day, but I do
Speaker:keep a list of times
Speaker:when I've been awesome so that when
Speaker:I'm freaking out, I can go and visit
Speaker:my also list.
Speaker:And so I might add, I might reflect
Speaker:to add on to my awesome list, but
Speaker:basically for the same one, for
Speaker:those days when I'm not feeling
Speaker:awesome, I can go and remind myself.
Speaker:So that's what I use with Chris.
Speaker:But from Chris is in the
Speaker:brain. But for me, going
Speaker:to bed at night isn't my issue.
Speaker:It's the 3 a.m.
Speaker:wakeup.
Speaker:And it's kind of that witching
Speaker:hour, isn't it?
Speaker:You know, like babies wake up three,
Speaker:four in the morning.
Speaker:I think there's like a moment in our
Speaker:sleep cycle where we're not quite as
Speaker:deep. And then if there are issues
Speaker:happening, I'll definitely wake up
Speaker:then.
Speaker:And then also before I started
Speaker:taking HRT, I don't
Speaker:know if I mentioned my my sleep
Speaker:issues. Like I was waking up
Speaker:multiple times in the night and 3:00
Speaker:a lot.
Speaker:Now that I have estrogen in my body,
Speaker:I sleep much better.
Speaker:So to say anybody else can't sleep,
Speaker:there's a woman out there and of a
Speaker:certain age, I'd recommend
Speaker:exploring.
Speaker:Sometimes it works, sometimes it
Speaker:doesn't. But anyhow, when I wake up
Speaker:in that 3 a.m.
Speaker:and my mind is racing, there's
Speaker:all different kinds of advice.
Speaker:It's like, ignore it, don't look,
Speaker:go back to sleep.
Speaker:Once you look at the clock, you
Speaker:won't go down.
Speaker:There's you're not going to go back
Speaker:to sleep. So get up and do whatever
Speaker:you need to do and write stuff down.
Speaker:Talk to yourself.
Speaker:You know, and I've tried a variety.
Speaker:And if
Speaker:I wake up with panic
Speaker:or just like fear in my body,
Speaker:what I used to do is then try
Speaker:and I'll be like, hey, I'm afraid,
Speaker:why am I afraid?
Speaker:And they would like go through my
Speaker:list of things like, yes, because
Speaker:we're going to miss our number this
Speaker:quarter or because I'm going to have
Speaker:to fire somebody or
Speaker:there's a board meeting and I don't
Speaker:know the agenda, you know, that kind
Speaker:of thing.
Speaker:And then I would start to freak out
Speaker:about it.
Speaker:But my therapist
Speaker:recommended when that happens,
Speaker:to not find
Speaker:the reason or fuel the fear, but
Speaker:just acknowledge the fear by itself
Speaker:and find ways to calm my body.
Speaker:And that has been revolutionary.
Speaker:So I'll wake up afraid and I
Speaker:won't go. Why am I afraid of this
Speaker:reason? And now fuel, fuel, fuel
Speaker:for that feeling and said, I'll wake
Speaker:up. Go. Okay.
Speaker:I'm afraid I'm safe.
Speaker:I'm in bed.
Speaker:It's okay.
Speaker:I'll just feel this feeling and then
Speaker:I'll go quite quickly.
Speaker:And then sometimes that's enough to
Speaker:go to sleep in the middle of the
Speaker:night if I really can't sleep.
Speaker:What I find most helpful is
Speaker:to do some sort of guided meditation
Speaker:because then I at least calm down
Speaker:and sometimes go back to sleep and
Speaker:sometimes I don't.
Speaker:But it's better than staring
Speaker:at the ceiling if I'm getting
Speaker:up and writing it down or
Speaker:doing the work is doesn't help
Speaker:because then I'm just up from three
Speaker:in the morning and that's the start
Speaker:of my day.
Speaker:I find it quite soothing to put my
Speaker:hands on my upper chest.
Speaker:I try and separate what my might
Speaker:be thinking versus the sensations
Speaker:in my body and what I'm feeling and
Speaker:just be like, okay. I'm feeling this
Speaker:feeling body.
Speaker:You're okay.
Speaker:And then the other one is if people
Speaker:do wake up in the middle of the
Speaker:night, one of the reasons
Speaker:might be blood sugar.
Speaker:So it's a point where if your blood
Speaker:sugar goes quite low, your body
Speaker:will put in cortisol to
Speaker:wake you up and to balance
Speaker:things. And then that's why you wake
Speaker:up at three in the morning.
Speaker:And so having a small snack
Speaker:before bed might help keep
Speaker:your sugar level
Speaker:constant through the night and then
Speaker:you don't wake up anyhow.
Speaker:Is the. I've done a lot of research.
Speaker:The second thing I wanted to ask you
Speaker:was Chris, Krista talked about
Speaker:normalizing the conversation of
Speaker:mental health by always
Speaker:asking the question in a 1 to 1
Speaker:of how do you feel on a scale of 1
Speaker:to 10? And I guess the question to
Speaker:you is maybe two parts, one of which
Speaker:is, A, how do you just fundamentally
Speaker:normalize the conversation of mental
Speaker:health in the organization?
Speaker:And then how do you activate line
Speaker:managers on it?
Speaker:And this little idea around asking
Speaker:a 1 to 10 scale of like, how are
Speaker:you doing?
Speaker:Do you think that's a good way to
Speaker:enter into that conversation?
Speaker:So I like the idea of the question.
Speaker:I've never used it.
Speaker:You know, once he said, it's like,
Speaker:yeah, I was supposed to use that
Speaker:question.
Speaker:I need to try to remember to do it.
Speaker:So maybe I'll stick a posted on it.
Speaker:As a reminder,
Speaker:in terms of the normalizing mental
Speaker:health, I really don't know what to
Speaker:say because I'm conflicted.
Speaker:There's part of me that
Speaker:thinks that we should talk about
Speaker:mental health and talk about what's
Speaker:going on and be able to
Speaker:share more of ourselves
Speaker:everywhere, including work.
Speaker:But then there's also a part of me
Speaker:that thinks that we've just gotten a
Speaker:bit too into it.
Speaker:And now I'm going to sound old
Speaker:fashioned.
Speaker:Like life can be hard
Speaker:and there could be ups and downs,
Speaker:and having a level of resilience
Speaker:is really important to survive
Speaker:work and the world.
Speaker:And I'm not saying that we should
Speaker:have horrible work environments,
Speaker:but I sometimes wonder if
Speaker:talking about it so much
Speaker:has stolen people's resilience.
Speaker:And so how do you find the balance
Speaker:between not being
Speaker:a toxic workplace where everybody
Speaker:is afraid but not
Speaker:being so
Speaker:accommodating is not the right word,
Speaker:but like so aware
Speaker:of it. And so
Speaker:I guess accommodating is the word
Speaker:that keeps coming to mind that
Speaker:that people can't get better,
Speaker:that everybody's expecting the world
Speaker:to bow to them rather than a little
Speaker:bit of both.
Speaker:I know exactly what you're saying.
Speaker:I think there's really a balance to
Speaker:be had here, and I think it's the
Speaker:line manager. Sometimes it becomes
Speaker:quite obvious
Speaker:that you need to start asking these
Speaker:questions. Like the person comes
Speaker:into the session, you have a bit of
Speaker:a chat, everything's okay,
Speaker:yada. But you can see in their eyes
Speaker:and you seen their behavior and they
Speaker:see the way they're kind of talking
Speaker:about things, that there's something
Speaker:happening and that at that point
Speaker:you're like, okay, I need to start
Speaker:asking some questions here in this
Speaker:respect. And maybe this is the
Speaker:balance that you're talking about,
Speaker:which is we don't need to have a
Speaker:mental health conversation every
Speaker:week. But I think by
Speaker:having a relationship and having
Speaker:trust between the two of us and me
Speaker:being able to pick up on cues that
Speaker:actually make sense.
Speaker:There is a time and place to have
Speaker:these conversations and to help that
Speaker:person.
Speaker:And one example that I can think
Speaker:about as I was talking with a very
Speaker:junior sales rep, she was new to
Speaker:sales and she was having confidence
Speaker:issues and she was trying to cover
Speaker:it up and trying to mask it from me
Speaker:in some form.
Speaker:And I remember having this
Speaker:conversation with her and I could
Speaker:see the tears behind
Speaker:her eyes, as it were.
Speaker:This weird how you can sense these
Speaker:things. I something. Okay,
Speaker:Something's afoot here.
Speaker:And then I started probing a little
Speaker:bit. And then, you know, the next
Speaker:thing you know, matures or flowing.
Speaker:And she's expressing to me that
Speaker:she's deeply concerned about her
Speaker:ability to be an effective
Speaker:salesperson and this and the other.
Speaker:And we had a wonderful conversation.
Speaker:We had a great outcome.
Speaker:And she's turned into a fantastic
Speaker:seller. So I think it's really those
Speaker:kind of spot specific places
Speaker:where you need to land.
Speaker:S in a way that's useful and
Speaker:effective without your point
Speaker:going overboard.
Speaker:While you were talking about your
Speaker:sales person,
Speaker:for example, it suddenly made
Speaker:me think about we're a bit lazy
Speaker:in the way that we talk about these
Speaker:things and we lump it all in as a
Speaker:mental health and we just kind of be
Speaker:like emotions, messy
Speaker:stuff.
Speaker:But mental health, because we lump
Speaker:it all two in together is really
Speaker:wide ranging from some imposter
Speaker:syndrome through to suicidal
Speaker:ideation because
Speaker:there's a really horrible possible
Speaker:end outcome.
Speaker:We're a bit afraid of it, and then
Speaker:it all comes together and then we
Speaker:just leave it there.
Speaker:Whereas your conversation
Speaker:that you had, I don't even know
Speaker:if I would put that down as mental
Speaker:health like we do just
Speaker:because we put it in this bucket of
Speaker:not standard old school,
Speaker:but really it's around high
Speaker:performance, isn't it?
Speaker:Like you have somebody who's not
Speaker:performing well because they don't
Speaker:think they can and are so afraid
Speaker:and in their heads
Speaker:that in order to get them to be a
Speaker:high performer, you need to
Speaker:understand what's holding them back.
Speaker:And I would argue that has nothing
Speaker:to do with mental health.
Speaker:And that's around resilient.
Speaker:And being able to have difficult
Speaker:conversations.
Speaker:So I'm thinking now maybe we should
Speaker:start to be clearer.
Speaker:Not you and I, but in this
Speaker:conversation.
Speaker:Emotions does not mean
Speaker:mental health.
Speaker:So we have some things set up.
Speaker:We have mental health first aid
Speaker:ers so we can direct them to
Speaker:them and at work who've had
Speaker:training.
Speaker:And then we also have access
Speaker:to free counseling via
Speaker:our insurance or
Speaker:our pension or whatever.
Speaker:And people can speak
Speaker:to somebody on the day,
Speaker:and then there's X number of
Speaker:sessions.
Speaker:So my advice would be, don't
Speaker:try and solve it yourself, don't
Speaker:take it on, but make sure you know
Speaker:what resources are available and
Speaker:send them to the right resources.
Speaker:But also at work, we do have to deal
Speaker:with people's mental health, as in
Speaker:people who have depression.
Speaker:People have anxiety disorders,
Speaker:people that have OCD.
Speaker:You know, there's like loads
Speaker:neurodiverse with certain issues,
Speaker:actual, you know, health
Speaker:issues. And I feel like because
Speaker:of that,
Speaker:we just overindex
Speaker:on on this mental health
Speaker:issue. But maybe we should be
Speaker:separating the people who need
Speaker:proper support
Speaker:and everybody else
Speaker:who needs some help in coaching,
Speaker:getting out of their own heads in
Speaker:order to do a good job.
Speaker:Yeah, I think you're right.
Speaker:I think there is a distinction here
Speaker:because things like depression
Speaker:and ADHD and so on, those are
Speaker:actual conditions.
Speaker:Some people have those conditions
Speaker:and some of those individuals do
Speaker:work in your company.
Speaker:So having a very clear strand of
Speaker:support for that distinctly
Speaker:makes sense. And you're right, that
Speaker:is kind of separate from
Speaker:generic business context
Speaker:challenges are having with people's
Speaker:confidence or anxieties or what have
Speaker:you, I suppose.
Speaker:So there probably is something
Speaker:there.
Speaker:Last question related to this.
Speaker:Just from a policy standpoint, if
Speaker:you're a CEO, you're in a scalable
Speaker:company.
Speaker:Is there anything else that you
Speaker:would see as kind of core to the
Speaker:mental health plank within your
Speaker:company?
Speaker:So now I'm thinking we should really
Speaker:define it, which is not something
Speaker:we've done. But just from today's
Speaker:conversation and my ideas of
Speaker:what is the point?
Speaker:Like, why are we focusing on mental
Speaker:health rather than it just being
Speaker:a trend? And it sounds good as
Speaker:an organization.
Speaker:And for me, there's a few reasons
Speaker:why you focus on it.
Speaker:One is purely
Speaker:the element that you need
Speaker:to have policies and
Speaker:protections and make sure
Speaker:that those who need support have
Speaker:support because you're
Speaker:legally required to.
Speaker:And then you have in
Speaker:order to have a high performance
Speaker:team.
Speaker:Arguably, you shouldn't have a toxic
Speaker:culture. And what does not having a
Speaker:toxic culture look like?
Speaker:And in our modern world, that
Speaker:includes a
Speaker:feeling of inclusivity,
Speaker:able to show up as yourself,
Speaker:able to say that you are
Speaker:struggling and not be ostracized
Speaker:for it. And I think that's a lot of
Speaker:what we lump into mental health.
Speaker:But for me, I don't know
Speaker:if it's mental health. Like I think
Speaker:I now need to redefine what I think
Speaker:of as mental health.
Speaker:And then that is
Speaker:in order to enable
Speaker:people to perform at their highest
Speaker:level.
Speaker:And then in order to do that, you
Speaker:need to support
Speaker:your managers to have those
Speaker:conversations, because people are
Speaker:afraid of having difficult
Speaker:conversations with emotions because
Speaker:we don't know what's going to happen.
Speaker:Like what if somebody cries?
Speaker:What if somebody gets angry?
Speaker:What if somebody says they think
Speaker:they're a failure?
Speaker:How are you going to handle it?
Speaker:And so giving your managers
Speaker:training and support to have
Speaker:those conversations and to feel
Speaker:comfortable with them and also
Speaker:for them to be able to
Speaker:shake it off afterwards, Because I
Speaker:think there are some times we
Speaker:ask a lot of managers, managers will
Speaker:overtake all of their team's
Speaker:feelings and you need to make sure
Speaker:that they're okay as well and are
Speaker:well-resourced and resilient
Speaker:to deal with what sometimes is a lot
Speaker:of emotion that they're dealing with
Speaker:on a daily basis.
Speaker:Love it. So why don't we park it
Speaker:here and get on to our conversation
Speaker:with Mr. Chris Hadfield.
Speaker:What is anxiety?
Speaker:So I am definitely someone
Speaker:who's very familiar with it.
Speaker:But there's not necessarily
Speaker:even to this day, a wide ranging
Speaker:understanding.
Speaker:And also it seems to be
Speaker:quite often coded as like a woman
Speaker:issue, or at least women can talk
Speaker:about it. So I think it would be
Speaker:interesting to understand it and how
Speaker:it shows up in men.
Speaker:I suppose the example I use is
Speaker:for people because I know plenty of
Speaker:people, I don't really get anxious,
Speaker:you know. And they come from a place
Speaker:of wanting to understand it.
Speaker:And most people do.
Speaker:I speak to some people are like, I
Speaker:just don't need to be anxious.
Speaker:It's not choice.
Speaker:But it's almost like the analogy I
Speaker:often use is like someone is about
Speaker:to spring a test on you and you
Speaker:don't know when the test will be,
Speaker:but your life depends on it and
Speaker:it will likely be on questions you
Speaker:don't know the answer to.
Speaker:And it's that constant feeling
Speaker:of uncertainty,
Speaker:of that kind of what's
Speaker:going to happen. I don't know what's
Speaker:going to happen. Here's all the
Speaker:worst case scenarios.
Speaker:And even being anxious
Speaker:about not being anxious when
Speaker:everything is, it's almost like
Speaker:that. That stability, that calm
Speaker:is when that can provoke it as well.
Speaker:It's it's not even saying that.
Speaker:But when everything is fine, you're
Speaker:okay. Is that. Well, no, it's more
Speaker:about your internal kind of weather
Speaker:forecast rather than the external.
Speaker:And I avoid so just defining
Speaker:it because it shows up so
Speaker:differently for so many people in
Speaker:terms of like where it sits, how
Speaker:it feels, what those kind of
Speaker:thoughts are.
Speaker:But it is it's a signal.
Speaker:And sometimes it might be it's
Speaker:like the smoke alarm going off.
Speaker:Sometimes the smoke alarm might be a
Speaker:little bit faulty and I might need
Speaker:the batteries changing.
Speaker:It might just need to be doing some
Speaker:inner work for that.
Speaker:But sometimes it might be trying to
Speaker:tell you something ahead of time.
Speaker:My experience with anxiety is
Speaker:that I'd like the fire alarm
Speaker:analogy in that everything's
Speaker:tripping the fire alarm when
Speaker:it doesn't necessarily have to,
Speaker:and that I can almost handle more
Speaker:than when I just feel fear
Speaker:and there's no story in my mind.
Speaker:And I'm not stoking
Speaker:the fire. But no matter what I
Speaker:do, I can't get away from
Speaker:feeling afraid.
Speaker:And I find that really
Speaker:upsetting because there's no
Speaker:control over it, because I'm not
Speaker:thinking things.
Speaker:And so those times I kind of just,
Speaker:like, try and calm my
Speaker:physical body.
Speaker:Gravity, blankets, Distraction.
Speaker:I try not to numb it with alcohol,
Speaker:but sometimes numb it with alcohol
Speaker:and just know that it'll pass.
Speaker:Have you experienced that kind of
Speaker:anxiety as well where it's
Speaker:not tied to anything?
Speaker:Yeah, and it kind of links that
Speaker:piece when there isn't anything to
Speaker:be anxious about. There is no one
Speaker:single thing.
Speaker:I'll ask you a question first.
Speaker:Like when you're when you're feeling
Speaker:like that, are you trying to do
Speaker:something to stop yourself?
Speaker:Feeling anxious is out there.
Speaker:And trying to survive it.
Speaker:So I'm trying to just get through
Speaker:it, knowing it'll come out the other
Speaker:side. But feeling
Speaker:scared is a really uncomfortable
Speaker:feeling. Like even just as I'm
Speaker:describing it now, I can feel the
Speaker:tightness in my chest, I can feel
Speaker:the tightness in my stomach.
Speaker:There's like a level of panic
Speaker:that is physically in my body, and
Speaker:it's an uncomfortable feeling.
Speaker:And if it like passes in a minute
Speaker:or two, fine.
Speaker:But that can last
Speaker:days.
Speaker:And at that point is how do I
Speaker:cope until it passes?
Speaker:And then I'll just add this as a
Speaker:side point.
Speaker:I have started HRT
Speaker:and all of my anxiety has gone away
Speaker:and I did not realize how bad
Speaker:it was for the ten years is
Speaker:like a bathtub filling.
Speaker:So it's like drip, drip, drip of
Speaker:anxiety. And I didn't notice it
Speaker:until the point that I was basically
Speaker:having panic attacks and I was like,
Speaker:okay, there's something going on.
Speaker:I'm of the age of maybe needing
Speaker:HRT. Went to my doctor a couple of
Speaker:times is like, because I'm very
Speaker:high functioning, No, you're fine.
Speaker:And then I finally guess what it's
Speaker:like, This isn't right.
Speaker:Finally took it.
Speaker:Two days later, the plug
Speaker:in the bathtub was pulled.
Speaker:All the anxiety went away.
Speaker:And I was like, my God,
Speaker:I forgot. This is how I used to feel
Speaker:because it was a ten year process.
Speaker:So I'm now actually trying to
Speaker:imagine the anxiety that I lived
Speaker:with constantly for such a long
Speaker:time.
Speaker:I think there's two things here.
Speaker:I think one is I
Speaker:think it's always important to be
Speaker:patient with yourself when you do
Speaker:feel a certain way.
Speaker:I think when I talk about these
Speaker:things, I'm also conscious of
Speaker:knowing that sometimes you need to
Speaker:sit with that feeling and that's
Speaker:okay. It's it's knowing that there
Speaker:isn't going to be anything that's
Speaker:going to try and move it in the same
Speaker:way. If you had a cold, you know,
Speaker:yes, you can take remedies.
Speaker:Yes. You can wrap up warm.
Speaker:Yes, you can take the snow, the
Speaker:tablets, you one, but you're still
Speaker:going to feel a certain way for a
Speaker:period of time. And if you took a
Speaker:lemon sip from, why am I not better
Speaker:already, you're only going to make
Speaker:yourself feel worse.
Speaker:The worst thing you can do is judge
Speaker:yourself for it.
Speaker:So I think that self-talk is a big
Speaker:piece there around how you initially
Speaker:respond to it without judgment and
Speaker:observe that.
Speaker:One thing that can help here is
Speaker:giving it a name, like naming
Speaker:that feeling.
Speaker:I was working with someone last
Speaker:year that had panic attacks around
Speaker:public speaking, so they'd have very
Speaker:real examples of not just I'm
Speaker:feeling anxious, I've had a panic
Speaker:attack here and.
Speaker:They named theirs James, James
Speaker:or someone they went with.
Speaker:And whenever they suggested
Speaker:something, James would get super
Speaker:anxious about it.
Speaker:So he started using, James
Speaker:is starting to feel a bit anxious
Speaker:about this presentation.
Speaker:James is a bit anxious about
Speaker:this QB.
Speaker:That hasn't even been put in the air
Speaker:and I haven't got anything to be
Speaker:anxious about, but I am.
Speaker:And he just found an issue like
Speaker:straight away. There was such a
Speaker:different response to it because it
Speaker:wasn't him. It's not you, it's not
Speaker:you are not your anxiety.
Speaker:And then the second thing I think
Speaker:that can help is when you are
Speaker:filling in that state is thinking
Speaker:about what am I trying to move
Speaker:towards rather than away from.
Speaker:So if I'm trying to stop myself
Speaker:feeling anxious, all I'm thinking
Speaker:about is being anxious.
Speaker:If I'm trying to stop myself from
Speaker:feeling scared, I'm just going, Am I
Speaker:still scared?
Speaker:So it's almost thinking, what do I
Speaker:want to move towards?
Speaker:Do I want to feel calmer?
Speaker:Do I want to feel more relaxed on a
Speaker:feel focused, motivated?
Speaker:So it's thinking about what's the
Speaker:state? And then I
Speaker:might still do the same thing, wrap
Speaker:myself with blankets, I might still
Speaker:write journal, whatever it might be,
Speaker:but I'm doing it with a different
Speaker:kind of intention in mind and
Speaker:one that I can maybe better
Speaker:understand and measure how I'm doing
Speaker:towards it, whilst also
Speaker:knowing I'll do these things.
Speaker:And sometimes it might pass in ten
Speaker:minutes and it might not.
Speaker:So here's a question for you, Chris.
Speaker:So when does it become or start
Speaker:to become a problem whereby you need
Speaker:to be proactive about it, either in
Speaker:terms of yourself or line management
Speaker:or the company?
Speaker:I think where it becomes a problem
Speaker:is where, first of all is occupying
Speaker:your mind constantly.
Speaker:You know, it's stopping you from
Speaker:fitting present with your partner
Speaker:and your friends. And the evening
Speaker:it's taking up your weekends.
Speaker:It's maybe driving you to
Speaker:think you always need to be checking
Speaker:emails.
Speaker:And this is where the balance is, of
Speaker:course, because anxiety can also
Speaker:help you be proactive with deals
Speaker:that can make you think about what
Speaker:could go wrong.
Speaker:Where I think it's healthy is where
Speaker:you're thinking that and then you're
Speaker:acting on it.
Speaker:Whereas unhealthy is when you're
Speaker:thinking these things and you're
Speaker:just allowing it to consume you and
Speaker:it's almost paralyzing you and you
Speaker:know, you're not taking any actions
Speaker:as a result of it.
Speaker:You're just letting it project in
Speaker:your mind and therefore
Speaker:not showing up in the
Speaker:way you want. And you have
Speaker:identities outside of work.
Speaker:And even the identity and work is
Speaker:it's causing you to go into
Speaker:situations feeling less confident
Speaker:or more apprehensive
Speaker:or more uncertain about things
Speaker:or even pessimistic about things.
Speaker:And then if you want to put the
Speaker:company or the line manager in a
Speaker:position to start to be proactive
Speaker:about mental health, proactive about
Speaker:anxiety or proactive about burnout,
Speaker:what are the initial set of tools
Speaker:or techniques that you can arm a
Speaker:company with or ally manager
Speaker:with to start to identify what
Speaker:is happening with employees and then
Speaker:B start to do something about it
Speaker:that's useful.
Speaker:Yeah, I think one of the biggest
Speaker:things is just the types of
Speaker:conversations you have.
Speaker:You know, if you wait until someone
Speaker:is struggling to try and have a
Speaker:conversation with them, they're
Speaker:going to feel like, actually this is
Speaker:a trap. Like, are you just asking me
Speaker:this because you've got some
Speaker:redundancies coming up or
Speaker:you know, you need to get rid of me
Speaker:or I'm not performing.
Speaker:So now you only care about my
Speaker:numbers when I'm not performing.
Speaker:But when I was or when I was doing
Speaker:in the middle, you weren't asking
Speaker:about this. So I can come across
Speaker:very insincere, of course,
Speaker:when you do it that way.
Speaker:So I think it's normalizing.
Speaker:The conversation is asking questions
Speaker:even before you think there is a an
Speaker:issue or a problem if someone
Speaker:is showing you care, I think scaling
Speaker:questions could be really useful
Speaker:because the last question we asked
Speaker:you on a daily basis, how are you?
Speaker:How are you?
Speaker:Alright, I'm not bad, you know,
Speaker:and it's just this automated
Speaker:response.
Speaker:So I think even scaling questions
Speaker:and getting into the habit of asking
Speaker:people like, how do you feel on a
Speaker:scale of 1 to 10.
Speaker:I You mean by scaling question
Speaker:Because I'm just like, how do you
Speaker:scale a business?
Speaker:How do you hire more people?
Speaker:How are you feeling on a scale of 1
Speaker:to 10, just in general, not like
Speaker:your anxiety or anything.
Speaker:And some people might say, I'm, I'm
Speaker:A70, what makes it seven?
Speaker:Well, you know, this is going on.
Speaker:And here is you're going into
Speaker:what are you feeling rather than how
Speaker:are you feeling or what's on your
Speaker:mind? And someone might be like
Speaker:one week or seven, they might go,
Speaker:I'm an eight. Okay.
Speaker:Like, what's changed? What are you
Speaker:doing as a result?
Speaker:What are you still doing?
Speaker:Someone might start to go, I'm a
Speaker:six, I'm a five.
Speaker:And throughout that you can go,
Speaker:What's changed here?
Speaker:Or if someone has dropped a few
Speaker:numbers, For example, you might go.
Speaker:When we spoke last month, you were
Speaker:here. Like, this is what you said
Speaker:you were thinking, feeling and
Speaker:doing.
Speaker:What would you say has changed since
Speaker:then? And sometimes they might not
Speaker:be anything. And it's good to
Speaker:reassure someone that, look, you're
Speaker:still doing the right things.
Speaker:It's okay.
Speaker:People can allow the
Speaker:numbers to dictate how they feel, of
Speaker:course, or that process to think
Speaker:everything is working is going well.
Speaker:It is. This is where, you know,
Speaker:people say trust the process.
Speaker:But I think you've got to trust
Speaker:yourself before you trust the
Speaker:process. I think that's the missing
Speaker:piece. I think a manager also
Speaker:being prepared to be vulnerable.
Speaker:You know, vulnerability builds,
Speaker:release, ability and vulnerability
Speaker:and accountability don't go on
Speaker:separate scale was just because
Speaker:you're more vulnerable. It doesn't
Speaker:make someone less accountable.
Speaker:Or the more you encourage
Speaker:someone to be vulnerable, it doesn't
Speaker:mean they're less accountable.
Speaker:As a result, they actually sharing.
Speaker:I felt like this and not even just
Speaker:when someone is sharing this, but
Speaker:proactively.
Speaker:This is how I felt six months in and
Speaker:this is how I felt when I when I'm.
Speaker:Stay on the steal. And here's what I
Speaker:did as a result of it.
Speaker:You know, normalizing it rather than
Speaker:what people can look at as managers
Speaker:and leaders and go, you're just this
Speaker:superhero almost sometimes, or
Speaker:you don't know what it's like.
Speaker:You've not being where I've been and
Speaker:you're not doing it in a way of
Speaker:going, I've done what you've done
Speaker:and, you know, trying to outshine
Speaker:someone.
Speaker:Just try to humanize yourself,
Speaker:really.
Speaker:Just as a side note.
Speaker:One of my biggest surprises
Speaker:as I became more senior was that I
Speaker:was still me.
Speaker:And I just mean like, because when
Speaker:you're a junior person looking at
Speaker:these fancy execs
Speaker:and their big houses and their big
Speaker:salaries and like, why would they
Speaker:have any worries in the world?
Speaker:And they have everything sorted.
Speaker:Because I found my 20s really hard.
Speaker:So anybody who looked like their
Speaker:lives were sorted, I was just in awe
Speaker:of.
Speaker:And then I kind of became that
Speaker:person.
Speaker:And I have a bigger house and I have
Speaker:a bigger salary, but like,
Speaker:I still have all of my worries and
Speaker:the anxiety and different
Speaker:problems and school fees
Speaker:and like, are my children
Speaker:going to be okay?
Speaker:Are they going to launch?
Speaker:Are they not going to launch?
Speaker:Lost my parents, lost my
Speaker:grandparents. Like life
Speaker:is still very complicated.
Speaker:Even if on the outside
Speaker:you have things that somebody who's
Speaker:more junior wants and
Speaker:they don't realize that you're still
Speaker:a person.
Speaker:And I'm projecting how I felt when I
Speaker:was that age, and I didn't think
Speaker:that senior execs were people
Speaker:that were relatable.
Speaker:So I think that there's an element
Speaker:of just sharing that you're a full
Speaker:person for a lot of people is quite
Speaker:a surprise.
Speaker:I still remember that conversation
Speaker:we had both when you came on the
Speaker:course that did the stress and
Speaker:burnout prevention, and you sat down
Speaker:with someone who was feeling
Speaker:overwhelmed and went through one of
Speaker:the exercises and talk about
Speaker:being yourself.
Speaker:And you did the same time,
Speaker:didn't you? And even doing that was
Speaker:like, it wasn't you weren't doing
Speaker:it in a disingenuous way to go,
Speaker:Well, I've got problems as well as
Speaker:who are you? But it was like relate
Speaker:ability is it's kind of I'm being
Speaker:vulnerable here as well, and not
Speaker:just sitting here from my high
Speaker:top chair judging you for it.
Speaker:Should we talk about that exercise?
Speaker:Actually, because it was one that I
Speaker:found really helpful.
Speaker:So just put a bit of context.
Speaker:I joined a meeting
Speaker:and the person in the meeting
Speaker:was in total overwhelm.
Speaker:They started talking
Speaker:and immediately started to cry.
Speaker:Had too much work, too
Speaker:much pressure and did not
Speaker:know where to go
Speaker:next.
Speaker:And I had happened to be on your
Speaker:course and we had just covered one
Speaker:of the exercises and it was amazing
Speaker:to have that tool in my arsenal.
Speaker:Yeah. So it's the stress container.
Speaker:Exercise is a couple of different
Speaker:versions. We have a level of stress
Speaker:that we can manage before it starts
Speaker:to fill to the top.
Speaker:And if you imagine it's like a
Speaker:bucket, every thing that comes
Speaker:in big, small,
Speaker:positive or negative, we sometimes
Speaker:forget that. But even positive
Speaker:things, we can have positive stress
Speaker:that will contribute to a stress.
Speaker:And when it gets that top and you
Speaker:don't have the taps to release it,
Speaker:that's where it starts to spill
Speaker:over. That's where burnout can
Speaker:occur. That's where overwhelm can
Speaker:occur.
Speaker:So the idea behind the stress
Speaker:container is thinking about,
Speaker:first of all, when you can even do
Speaker:this for a particular day
Speaker:or you're working on it could be a
Speaker:particular challenge in your life.
Speaker:It could be your anxiety that we've
Speaker:talked about. It could be everything
Speaker:almost going, What's everything
Speaker:going in my stress container right
Speaker:now? I would really encourage people
Speaker:when you're doing this to to write
Speaker:like not just type but.
Speaker:Right. Because when we write, we use
Speaker:the rational part of our brain as
Speaker:well that the idea
Speaker:behind the issue you draw everything
Speaker:down. First of all got right here's
Speaker:everything that's going into my
Speaker:stress container and even that in
Speaker:itself straight away, sometimes you
Speaker:might be like, there's not as much
Speaker:as I thought, or even just looking
Speaker:at it on paper if it was more
Speaker:manageable or that does feel
Speaker:quite a lot. And that's where that
Speaker:compassion can come in and go, Hey,
Speaker:look, if a friend was telling me
Speaker:this and I sit and I and I said
Speaker:I wasn't overwhelmed or stressed,
Speaker:they would think I'm a robot or they
Speaker:would think, like, why do you don't
Speaker:care? Like, all of this is going
Speaker:on. So it can work both ways,
Speaker:really. Then what you want to do
Speaker:is you then circle what's within my
Speaker:control here.
Speaker:So what can I do something
Speaker:about? What can't I control?
Speaker:And sometimes just even writing
Speaker:those things down and labeling that,
Speaker:you know the phrase I used, the
Speaker:scene you accept to wall is all the
Speaker:less time and energy you spend
Speaker:trying to push it over.
Speaker:And I ask people sometimes if they
Speaker:come to a session, how did you get
Speaker:here today? The tube?
Speaker:How long did it take you? An hour.
Speaker:If you went straight from door to
Speaker:door in the tube, it would be 20
Speaker:minutes. Why didn't you get annoyed
Speaker:that you couldn't get a tube
Speaker:straight from your house to here?
Speaker:When I come because I can't control?
Speaker:Exactly. There's so many things
Speaker:already. Each day we choose what we
Speaker:we get annoyed about or stressed
Speaker:about, and there's a lot of things
Speaker:we just accept.
Speaker:So then it's going okay out of what
Speaker:I can control. Let's put a little
Speaker:asterix to the 2 or 3 biggest
Speaker:things. If I think right now, what's
Speaker:the thing that's taking up the most
Speaker:space? What's the thing in the
Speaker:bucket that's causing the most
Speaker:weight? It's going okay.
Speaker:It's this is this thing is this
Speaker:feeling is this situation.
Speaker:And then asking for each of those
Speaker:what's 1 or 2 things in my control I
Speaker:can do right now to
Speaker:reduce or remove this?
Speaker:So what it allows people to do is
Speaker:to take that bird's eye view to
Speaker:identify what's in their control,
Speaker:but also to come out with.
Speaker:Some very action orientated steps,
Speaker:2 or 3 small ones that
Speaker:they can take and boil it
Speaker:down from a feeling and to an action
Speaker:which makes people feel more in
Speaker:control. And when we feel more in
Speaker:control of something, we
Speaker:automatically reduce our levels of
Speaker:anxiety or stress because
Speaker:it's a very present feeling that we
Speaker:can do in the moment.
Speaker:So when we
Speaker:did it together, we
Speaker:did not actually get to the action
Speaker:part just because I think we were
Speaker:doing it together and it was a great
Speaker:way to
Speaker:help them transition from overwhelm
Speaker:and just that transition from
Speaker:overwhelm and the writing
Speaker:it all down.
Speaker:Got it from the swirling
Speaker:in your head where you kind of
Speaker:put it down, pick it up, put it
Speaker:down, pick it up. So it seems like
Speaker:it's five things, but it's actually
Speaker:one thing.
Speaker:And when you write it down, you
Speaker:realize what are the individual
Speaker:things that are going on.
Speaker:And then I think the only reason we
Speaker:didn't get to the action part was
Speaker:because I did it at the same time.
Speaker:And they were so surprised by mine
Speaker:that it kind of like changed
Speaker:the conversation in a way.
Speaker:And so it had the right effect of
Speaker:moving out of overwhelm.
Speaker:And then it had like a
Speaker:bonding effect between us.
Speaker:We were a bit in it together because
Speaker:I think one of my concerns was I'm
Speaker:not doing a good job and I'm going
Speaker:to get fired.
Speaker:And they were so shocked by me
Speaker:writing that down again, kind of to
Speaker:my earlier point of
Speaker:junior people thinking senior people
Speaker:are amazing and don't
Speaker:have those fears and also would
Speaker:never be fired because clearly,
Speaker:like, not clearly, but from their
Speaker:point of view, I was doing a good
Speaker:job. So why was that even in the
Speaker:list? I just remember that one
Speaker:moment and their face, like
Speaker:seeing that, just the shock and
Speaker:confusion, it just shifted.
Speaker:Everything calmed them down.
Speaker:And then we were I guess we did have
Speaker:an action plan, but we didn't do the
Speaker:circling. I probably forgot about
Speaker:the circling, but we had a okay,
Speaker:so what's the next most important
Speaker:thing on this incredible list
Speaker:here? Here's a prioritization.
Speaker:And then they were able to go.
Speaker:Often focus on the one thing.
Speaker:Yeah. And I think that exercise is,
Speaker:you know, going back to your
Speaker:question earlier on, Brandon, I
Speaker:would encourage groups do that even
Speaker:before they get to that point of
Speaker:overwhelm as well.
Speaker:Even even sometimes at the end
Speaker:of your day, if you've had quite a
Speaker:busy day and you don't feel
Speaker:necessarily massively stressed, but
Speaker:you just think there's a lot going
Speaker:on in your brain that is going to
Speaker:cause you to overthink.
Speaker:There's a separate tool I've used
Speaker:for this, the brain dump exercise
Speaker:that I just wanna reference.
Speaker:One last analogy for that piece
Speaker:there. I think when you when you get
Speaker:all your thoughts down on page, it's
Speaker:a bit like looking at a jigsaw
Speaker:puzzle in a box.
Speaker:It can seem like you just can't
Speaker:solve it, but you throw it on the
Speaker:table when you like, okay, there's
Speaker:some corners like I'm nowhere
Speaker:near finish this, but at least I
Speaker:know where to start with it.
Speaker:And I think that's the most
Speaker:important thing here, is that we
Speaker:know that we don't always need
Speaker:to have an answer, but if we have a
Speaker:starting point and some
Speaker:controllable things we can do,
Speaker:that's enough for us.
Speaker:A lot of the time to go right
Speaker:is when we feel out of control.
Speaker:It's when we feel helpless, when we
Speaker:don't know where to start.
Speaker:It's where we are thinking about all
Speaker:the things we can't control.
Speaker:The brain dump, exercise.
Speaker:The reason I mention it is because,
Speaker:again, I think this is another
Speaker:proactive tool, because it is often
Speaker:we're so busy in our day, we don't
Speaker:have time to reflect on it.
Speaker:You know, it's a bit like being in a
Speaker:CGI film.
Speaker:You're so busy filming behind a
Speaker:green screen, it doesn't make any
Speaker:sense until you watch it back at
Speaker:the end of it. It's kind of like,
Speaker:Well, what was I doing?
Speaker:Like, you know, I was the lives of
Speaker:people in just green outfits.
Speaker:I just that weird let me watch the
Speaker:film.
Speaker:And when we don't have that,
Speaker:our brain then starts thinking about
Speaker:the day and then our primal
Speaker:brain, the amygdala, the slowdown
Speaker:and shake thing that sits in that.
Speaker:It's like that smoke alarm that's
Speaker:often where all of our irrational
Speaker:thoughts or anxiety, our emotions
Speaker:are feeling set will go off.
Speaker:And that part of our brain doesn't
Speaker:know the difference between the
Speaker:past, the present and the future.
Speaker:So we all think everything that
Speaker:we're thinking about needs to be
Speaker:solved right now or is going to
Speaker:happen right now in its current
Speaker:state, which is why we're lying in
Speaker:bed at 10 or 11 p.m.
Speaker:thinking about all of these things.
Speaker:So the brain dump exercise is
Speaker:four quadrants.
Speaker:It's pending wins, challenges,
Speaker:solutions.
Speaker:Say the first quadrant.
Speaker:You write down everything that's on
Speaker:your mind. So maybe some of the
Speaker:similar things that you've written
Speaker:down in that stress container.
Speaker:And the idea here is that when
Speaker:you're writing it down, you're
Speaker:sequentially telling your brain,
Speaker:we're not going to forget about it.
Speaker:Anyone who has kids will know.
Speaker:Like when you write things down,
Speaker:it's why kids get given timetables
Speaker:at school. It's why putting things
Speaker:on Netflix, If your kids are asking
Speaker:you for something, write it down.
Speaker:Go. Look, we're not forgetting about
Speaker:this. We will come back to it.
Speaker:It's a good little technique, but it
Speaker:works for the same for our brains,
Speaker:is that we don't need to keep this
Speaker:top of mind, is there?
Speaker:And our brains don't understand,
Speaker:even if it's in a calendar on us, on
Speaker:a spreadsheet behind 72
Speaker:by the top, that isn't the answer.
Speaker:So you depending, then you do wins.
Speaker:The wins is about that reflection.
Speaker:I think again, a big part of
Speaker:overwhelmed burnout
Speaker:imposter syndrome. All these things
Speaker:comes from a lack of self
Speaker:reflection, comes from not
Speaker:recognizing the progress we're
Speaker:making. So we're constantly thinking
Speaker:we're not there yet. We're not there
Speaker:yet. We need to keep pushing and
Speaker:just giving yourself that moment.
Speaker:Each state is 2 or 3 things
Speaker:that went well today know what
Speaker:happened, but what did I do?
Speaker:And it could be as simple as
Speaker:I got out for a walk at lunch, for
Speaker:example, or, you know, what
Speaker:was the controllable thing.
Speaker:I start I sent an email to this
Speaker:person and started this
Speaker:conversation.
Speaker:Challenges is going right
Speaker:rather than just going, It's been a
Speaker:super stressful day or I've had a
Speaker:terrible week is what
Speaker:made it that.
Speaker:Like what made it a stressful day?
Speaker:There's very rarely a stressful day.
Speaker:It's probably 2 or 3 moments in the
Speaker:day, so write those things down.
Speaker:Did you get co-operative email?
Speaker:Did you get coins for meeting that
Speaker:you really didn't need to be part of
Speaker:that actually challenges then your
Speaker:solutions is, Well, what can I do
Speaker:tomorrow or next week to proactively
Speaker:avoid this? Can I check the
Speaker:urgency of this conversation before
Speaker:I have it? Can I ask this person for
Speaker:an agenda for the meeting
Speaker:beforehand?
Speaker:Can I close down Slack or LinkedIn
Speaker:before I start making prospects and
Speaker:devote myself getting distracted to
Speaker:things?
Speaker:So when you have this, you have a
Speaker:blueprint that you can look at at
Speaker:the time again, regulate you, but
Speaker:throughout your evening or your
Speaker:weekend, you have a plan.
Speaker:You can look at it and it reassures
Speaker:your brain straight away when it
Speaker:starts to come up and go, what about
Speaker:this is too look, we're okay, we've
Speaker:got this.
Speaker:So if we just pull back for a moment
Speaker:from the individual level to the
Speaker:company level, let's imagine that
Speaker:I'm a CEO, which I am, and
Speaker:I'm joining our organization, let's
Speaker:say 150 people.
Speaker:And mental health as an actual thing
Speaker:has not really been discussed in the
Speaker:company to date in any real formal
Speaker:way. Perhaps it has on the
Speaker:individual level, but not on the
Speaker:kind of company corporate level at
Speaker:that point.
Speaker:So as a CEO and joining that
Speaker:company, what are some of
Speaker:the initial things that I should do
Speaker:to get the ball rolling on that
Speaker:front? Or what would you recommend?
Speaker:Anonymous survey to address
Speaker:all the elephant in the room.
Speaker:How well supported do you feel on a
Speaker:scale of 1 to 10, how would you feel
Speaker:on a scale of 1 to 10, How
Speaker:supportive do you find the managers?
Speaker:What do you think is
Speaker:in our control to support you?
Speaker:It's like just lay out on the table
Speaker:and don't just do that as an
Speaker:anonymous survey. Take away, share
Speaker:it. If you really want to take this
Speaker:seriously in the same way you put
Speaker:sales numbers up there and you
Speaker:wouldn't pretend that,
Speaker:you know, what we're doing really
Speaker:well know is like everyone knows
Speaker:we're not. Because they can see the
Speaker:numbers. It's the same with
Speaker:everyone. How they're feeling is
Speaker:just cause you're not talking about
Speaker:it. The sales team are with each
Speaker:other and if they're not, it's even
Speaker:more unhealthy because they're
Speaker:talking about it with their partner.
Speaker:And if they're not, it's even more
Speaker:unhealthy because they're just
Speaker:keeping it to themselves.
Speaker:So I think do that survey,
Speaker:have an open discussion and say,
Speaker:look, we listened.
Speaker:Here's what you said.
Speaker:Here's the things that some of the
Speaker:stuff we might not be able to
Speaker:control and that's important to
Speaker:address as one guy.
Speaker:This is the nature of where as
Speaker:a business or where we're as
Speaker:a company or just what we do in
Speaker:general or the nature of sales.
Speaker:And that's okay as well, is to
Speaker:is to be able to go, we can't do
Speaker:anything about this.
Speaker:And that's all right. And knowing
Speaker:what you can and what you can't do,
Speaker:but then going, here's what we can
Speaker:do, then here's what we're visibly
Speaker:going to do.
Speaker:I think that would be the most
Speaker:important step for me because it
Speaker:just shows people that you really
Speaker:do care about this.
Speaker:It's not just a tick box.
Speaker:It's not just a mental health
Speaker:awareness Week is coming up and
Speaker:we're going to get someone to come
Speaker:in and talk.
Speaker:So that would be my step 1 or 2.
Speaker:So I'm very interested in step
Speaker:three. So we've done the survey.
Speaker:We want to do something.
Speaker:I guess the question of what's the
Speaker:initial thrust like, what would
Speaker:actually make the most sense to kind
Speaker:of cover off the 8020 rolls, the
Speaker:stands?
Speaker:The piece I mentioned that Iran is
Speaker:one power that is encouraging
Speaker:managers of even giving them
Speaker:education or training around how to
Speaker:have these conversations, even like
Speaker:mental health, first day training
Speaker:could be useful thing as a maybe,
Speaker:not as initial step, but as a in
Speaker:the future. Like here's something we
Speaker:do sign up for just to give people
Speaker:greater awareness around it and how
Speaker:they bring it up in conversations.
Speaker:I think giving people
Speaker:space of almost making it part
Speaker:of onboarding as well as an
Speaker:important piece.
Speaker:You know, when people go is best
Speaker:practice of what a week looks like.
Speaker:If you're an A, B, D, R, and B
Speaker:or CSM is is a best
Speaker:practice Well being as well, like
Speaker:incorporate that.
Speaker:So I think it's having that in the
Speaker:onboarding, it's having that
Speaker:best practice of here's how to take
Speaker:care of yourself. It's it's also
Speaker:giving people not just minimum
Speaker:expectations but lower boundaries,
Speaker:but also upper boundaries,
Speaker:you know, particularly when they
Speaker:first start is yeah, here's
Speaker:what the minimum we expect but also
Speaker:be cautious of going to follow the
Speaker:other way of you know only
Speaker:I think Beth or the shop
Speaker:could regulate when he was at sales
Speaker:off the email people start
Speaker:walking off I thought I can see you
Speaker:on line get off like, you know, like
Speaker:this isn't what we want.
Speaker:This isn't what we need.
Speaker:I sometimes might need to do it, but
Speaker:I'm not doing it every day.
Speaker:And I think that's the other thing
Speaker:as well as leaders communicating
Speaker:things is people often do.
Speaker:It's not what it is, is how it looks
Speaker:and how you communicate.
Speaker:That as well is really important.
Speaker:So I think onboarding is an
Speaker:important part.
Speaker:I think in one to ones, I think when
Speaker:you're talking about training is
Speaker:going how are we incorporating
Speaker:training around if we're going to do
Speaker:objection handling or if we're going
Speaker:to do how you
Speaker:recall with these other training
Speaker:around like DNI and all these other
Speaker:pieces, how we kind of incorporating
Speaker:mindset and wellbeing training into
Speaker:that? Like are we giving people a
Speaker:better understanding of here's what
Speaker:stress is like, here's what healthy
Speaker:stress or unhealthy stress looks
Speaker:like, here's what anxiety
Speaker:looks like, here's how to support
Speaker:each other with that.
Speaker:I think just embedding it and going,
Speaker:this should just be like an adds on.
Speaker:It should be blended in
Speaker:with managers conversations.
Speaker:And then we have a space for when
Speaker:people do feel the same way.
Speaker:And that's the biggest thing is the
Speaker:test that when someone does feel
Speaker:like that, how do you respond to it?
Speaker:What's the actual conversation?
Speaker:And a manager shouldn't be like, Go
Speaker:and speak to each other about it.
Speaker:They should be like, you know, and
Speaker:this is the other thing which I
Speaker:think a lot of a struggle with for
Speaker:this topic is what if I don't know
Speaker:the answer? What if I can't fix it?
Speaker:And it's like, you don't need to fix
Speaker:it that need to have an answer all
Speaker:the time. It's just holding space
Speaker:for someone to be able to talk out
Speaker:loud and show
Speaker:that you understand. And you might
Speaker:be. You might not be the person to
Speaker:solve that, but it's being
Speaker:there to bring them to the person
Speaker:or encourage them to find
Speaker:those resources.
Speaker:When it comes to sales specifically,
Speaker:it's quite unique in a way versus
Speaker:the rest of the company because
Speaker:there's no other part of the company
Speaker:that has a quota per
Speaker:quarter or per month.
Speaker:Right. And they're always being held
Speaker:to account there. Their feet are
Speaker:always to the fire.
Speaker:The numbers are always there in
Speaker:front of them. So the question of
Speaker:anxiety and stress associated
Speaker:with that is uniquely related
Speaker:to sales. And I'm just curious, from
Speaker:your point of view, is there
Speaker:anything I don't know different
Speaker:that a company might think about
Speaker:doing for sales specifically to
Speaker:combat that, the quota
Speaker:system.
Speaker:Getting rid of quotas?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I think it kind of comes back to
Speaker:earlier on kind of that stress
Speaker:container is really boiling it down
Speaker:to is someone really clear
Speaker:on what's in their control
Speaker:and what they can do about it.
Speaker:And when things don't go well, are
Speaker:you able to coach
Speaker:someone or give them that space
Speaker:to recognize what they could and
Speaker:couldn't control because
Speaker:knocked back some failure and get
Speaker:lumped in all together?
Speaker:Sometimes. And sometimes yes, there
Speaker:is a time when someone could work
Speaker:on something and change something.
Speaker:Sometimes there isn't.
Speaker:Sometimes there is the you did
Speaker:everything right, like the complex
Speaker:failure, but something externally
Speaker:happened. You have control and
Speaker:it's knowing when to keep
Speaker:persevering. So I think that's the.
Speaker:Biggest challenge to sales people
Speaker:will go, Well, I was doing this last
Speaker:call, which I've just started doing
Speaker:this and nothing works and now I
Speaker:need to change it.
Speaker:And I said, Well, not necessarily.
Speaker:But it doesn't mean you shouldn't.
Speaker:But it's probably because, again,
Speaker:lack of self-reflection.
Speaker:A lot of people, particularly in
Speaker:sales and companies in general, will
Speaker:want to celebrate success, but they
Speaker:don't want to analyze it as much as
Speaker:they do failure.
Speaker:Like if you're going to sit in a
Speaker:room after poor culture and
Speaker:go for it for a day and go, what
Speaker:happened? Are you doing that for?
Speaker:When things go well, you spending
Speaker:as much time reflecting on that
Speaker:success as a as a company overall,
Speaker:first for then leaders, then as a
Speaker:team as well. It doesn't just come
Speaker:from one place, because the more
Speaker:you recognize that, the more you
Speaker:recognize what you're thinking,
Speaker:feeling and doing. When things are
Speaker:going well, the more you can
Speaker:maintain it. And then when things
Speaker:aren't, you can check yourself and
Speaker:go, Am I still doing these things?
Speaker:Yes. Okay.
Speaker:Trust the process because I trust
Speaker:myself more.
Speaker:Here's the things we've stopped
Speaker:doing is the things that sometimes
Speaker:we do because we think, I don't do
Speaker:that anymore because I'm good now.
Speaker:Because I know you're good. Because
Speaker:you were doing those things like
Speaker:make them part of the process rather
Speaker:than I don't need that anymore.
Speaker:And fine is that maybe you'll find
Speaker:because you've been doing this
Speaker:thing.
Speaker:Kind of like a self retrofit.
Speaker:But I also think it's about the self
Speaker:retro and actually businesses should
Speaker:do more retros.
Speaker:So self-reflection and business
Speaker:reflection. What's working, what's
Speaker:not.
Speaker:If there's only one thing
Speaker:our listeners can take away from
Speaker:the conversation today, what is it?
Speaker:Whatever you're feeling, whether
Speaker:it's stress, anxiety,
Speaker:overwhelm is asking what
Speaker:is this trying to tell me?
Speaker:This is why is this happening to me?
Speaker:But asking that question,
Speaker:saying as a signal, what is this
Speaker:trying to do was the reason I'm
Speaker:anxious. I'm anxious because I'm
Speaker:worried this meeting won't go to
Speaker:plan. I'm anxious that
Speaker:this conversation might be difficult
Speaker:to have and going, okay,
Speaker:well, what's 1 or 2 things I can do
Speaker:to proactively work on this?
Speaker:So that's one. Now just and the
Speaker:second thing is be proactively
Speaker:think about something.
Speaker:Don't just wait until you need
Speaker:something.
Speaker:You know, in the same way, if it's 2
Speaker:p.m. on a Saturday night sorry, 2
Speaker:p.m. on a Saturday and you're going
Speaker:out in the evening with friends and
Speaker:your friends on 20%, you charge
Speaker:it because you know it's going to
Speaker:run out back to the evening.
Speaker:Treat your energy the same way.
Speaker:Like proactively recharge yourself,
Speaker:proactively do things before you
Speaker:need them. Because if you don't,
Speaker:because we're going to go on some
Speaker:battery saving mode and that's when
Speaker:you are going to be more reactive.
Speaker:So the more proactive you are, the
Speaker:less reactive you need to be and
Speaker:the more prior to the of these
Speaker:things, the more likely you are to
Speaker:use them when you really need them.
Speaker:Thank you, Chris, for joining us on
Speaker:the operations room.
Speaker:If you like what you hear, please
Speaker:leave a comment or subscribe and
Speaker:we'll see you next week.