Episode 71

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Published on:

20th Feb 2025

71. Proactive Mental Health Strategies for Leaders

In this episode we discuss: How to tackle mental health in an organization. We are joined by Chris Hatfield, Mindset & Well-being Coach.

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We chat about the following with Chris Hatfield: 

  1. What if naming your anxiety was the first step to taking back control?
  2. How can leaders foster vulnerability without losing authority?
  3. Is your ‘stress container’ full, and how do you know when it’s overflowing?
  4. Are we truly addressing the root of anxiety, or just applying quick fixes?
  5. What if managing mental health was less about avoidance and more about sitting with discomfort?

References 

  • https://www.linkedin.com/in/chrishatfieldsalespsyche/
  • www.salespsyche.co.uk

Biography 

A sales mindset and well-being Coach and Author of Sales Psyche. With over 15+ years of experience working with the likes of Meta, Google, Salesforce, Experian and O2. Focused on supporting salespeople and leaders in developing a healthy and high performing mind. Also founded a run community, Run Your Mind, that is focused on mental well-being. 

To learn more about Beth and Brandon or to find out about sponsorship opportunities click here

Summary

16:31 Understanding Anxiety

16:52 The Nature of Anxiety in Men

19:14 Coping Mechanisms for Anxiety

20:36 Proactive vs Reactive Approaches to Anxiety

22:46 Identifying When Anxiety Becomes a Problem

25:10 The Importance of Vulnerability in Leadership

29:01 Understanding the Stress Container Exercise

36:05 The Importance of Reflection and Action

37:59 Tools for Managers to Address Anxiety

34:14 Creating a Mental Health Culture in Organizations

39:18 Training Managers for Mental Health Awareness

42:49 Sales-Specific Strategies for Managing Stress



This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis:

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Transcript
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Hello everyone, and welcome to

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another episode of The Operations

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Room. I am Brendan Bensinger, joined

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by my lovely co-host, Bethany

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Errors. How are things going,

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Bethany, today?

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Today I don't know where I am.

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I've been traveling so much.

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I was in India from

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Saturday trying to think.

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I clearly I'm jet lagged because I

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just don't even know what day of the

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week it is.

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Then flew home

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Wednesday night, got into Thursday,

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and now it's Friday. So I had a

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night in my bed.

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Yeah. So you're fresh on the jetlag?

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I would say.

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Yes. And also just like so excited

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to be in my bed because the week

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before I was in Manchester and was

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home for less than 12

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hours.

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So this is my second time sleeping

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in my bed in almost two weeks.

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But I am just exhausted.

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I don't think I was there long

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enough for jetlag, but clearly I was

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because I woke up at 5:00 this

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morning. I know for you, five is

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totally normal.

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It is not for me.

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So I'm just a bit groggy.

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So I did upgrade

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and take a business class

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flight home from Abu Dhabi.

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So the last leg from Abu Dhabi to

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London.

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And I'm always conflicted on

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business class. Like, do

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you stay awake and enjoy all the

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loveliness or do you take advantage

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of lying down flat and just ignore

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it all? And I went for the second

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option. This time we

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were boarding at 230

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in the morning and they oddly were

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telling us Good morning.

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As we boarded the plane, I was like,

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this, this is not good morning.

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This is the middle of the night.

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So I was in Manchester and I was in

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Jaipur.

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I love Jaipur.

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That city is awesome.

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Because it has somewhere between

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three and a half and 5 million

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people depending on what source

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you look at.

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So it's probably doubled in size

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since you were there, I would guess.

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And it's a small city as far

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as India is concerned.

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It's very much a tier two city.

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The traffic was unbelievable, the

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driving.

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At one point we were in tuk tuks

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because we one of the women

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who works with us

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was in charge of entertaining us on

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the Sunday.

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And so we went and saw everything

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in the Old City and then

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wanted to take us to a ceremony in a

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temple that was also in the old

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City. And we had to take off our

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shoes and run through just throngs

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of people. A lot of the team members

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were afraid to leave their shoes so

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that they're going to be stolen.

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And she just looked at them like

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slightly offensive and incredibly

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stupid. And she's like, Just leave

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your shoes.

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Don't take them with you.

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Unsurprisingly, they were still

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there when we came back.

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So we've got an amazing topic today,

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which is how to tackle mental health

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in an organization.

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We have the perfect guest for this,

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which is Chris Hadfield.

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He is the author of Cells Psyche and

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is a mindset and wellbeing coach.

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So before we get to Chris, I

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wanted to ask you a couple of

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questions. So the first one was

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sometimes not all the time, but on

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occasion the situation where

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you go to bed at night and your mind

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is racing, your mind is racing about

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work in terms of sensation

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of being overwhelmed, establish a

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ton of stuff to do and you're kind

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of worried a little bit.

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Or you've had a distinctly negative

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experience that day that you keep

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playing over your mind again and

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again, wondering how it could have

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been different this, that or the

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other. And the question is,

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how do you get yourself out of that

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state or how do you prevent that

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state from occurring in the first

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place? And I'll just give you one

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example that Chris dropped on us

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during the podcast and we'll hear a

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little bit later. But, you know, we

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talked about the the brain dump

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exercise, which is at the end of the

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day to go through your four

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quadrants. And as you described it,

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the four quadrants were a, to

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recognize what is pending.

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So just recognizing the

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tasks ahead of you in terms of the

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next day or the next week or what

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have you, reflecting on your wins

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that you had that day.

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Identify what the stressful moments

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were coming out of that day very

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specifically.

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And then to think about some of the

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solutions that you already have in

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mind and the whole point of this

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brain exercise, according to Chris,

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is just to get your mind in a state

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where it feels reassured,

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you've kind of put your mind in a

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position where you've kind of

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addressed it to some extent.

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The question back to you is, A, what

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do you think of that? But more

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broadly, what do you think about

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this kind of mind?

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Is racing nighttime scenario

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and how to deal with that?

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Well, so I took a class

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with Chris a couple of years ago

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and learned the brains of exercise.

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So I do sometimes use

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it. I don't want to after the class,

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I used it regularly and then

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realized that all four quadrants

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were kind of unnecessary

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and it was a bit too much.

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If I'm going to really, you know,

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have a huge amount on, I'll

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definitely do the pending

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just to make sure that I've captured

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it all.

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And quite often the

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the wins like I want spend a lot of

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time, but I'll just think through

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what are some of those wins.

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And part of that isn't necessarily

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for that day, but I do

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keep a list of times

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when I've been awesome so that when

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I'm freaking out, I can go and visit

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my also list.

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And so I might add, I might reflect

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to add on to my awesome list, but

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basically for the same one, for

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those days when I'm not feeling

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awesome, I can go and remind myself.

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So that's what I use with Chris.

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But from Chris is in the

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brain. But for me, going

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to bed at night isn't my issue.

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It's the 3 a.m.

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wakeup.

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And it's kind of that witching

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hour, isn't it?

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You know, like babies wake up three,

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four in the morning.

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I think there's like a moment in our

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sleep cycle where we're not quite as

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deep. And then if there are issues

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happening, I'll definitely wake up

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then.

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And then also before I started

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taking HRT, I don't

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know if I mentioned my my sleep

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issues. Like I was waking up

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multiple times in the night and 3:00

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a lot.

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Now that I have estrogen in my body,

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I sleep much better.

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So to say anybody else can't sleep,

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there's a woman out there and of a

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certain age, I'd recommend

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exploring.

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Sometimes it works, sometimes it

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doesn't. But anyhow, when I wake up

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in that 3 a.m.

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and my mind is racing, there's

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all different kinds of advice.

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It's like, ignore it, don't look,

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go back to sleep.

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Once you look at the clock, you

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won't go down.

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There's you're not going to go back

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to sleep. So get up and do whatever

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you need to do and write stuff down.

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Talk to yourself.

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You know, and I've tried a variety.

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And if

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I wake up with panic

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or just like fear in my body,

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what I used to do is then try

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and I'll be like, hey, I'm afraid,

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why am I afraid?

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And they would like go through my

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list of things like, yes, because

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we're going to miss our number this

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quarter or because I'm going to have

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to fire somebody or

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there's a board meeting and I don't

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know the agenda, you know, that kind

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of thing.

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And then I would start to freak out

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about it.

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But my therapist

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recommended when that happens,

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to not find

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the reason or fuel the fear, but

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just acknowledge the fear by itself

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and find ways to calm my body.

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And that has been revolutionary.

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So I'll wake up afraid and I

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won't go. Why am I afraid of this

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reason? And now fuel, fuel, fuel

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for that feeling and said, I'll wake

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up. Go. Okay.

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I'm afraid I'm safe.

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I'm in bed.

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It's okay.

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I'll just feel this feeling and then

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I'll go quite quickly.

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And then sometimes that's enough to

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go to sleep in the middle of the

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night if I really can't sleep.

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What I find most helpful is

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to do some sort of guided meditation

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because then I at least calm down

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and sometimes go back to sleep and

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sometimes I don't.

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But it's better than staring

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at the ceiling if I'm getting

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up and writing it down or

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doing the work is doesn't help

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because then I'm just up from three

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in the morning and that's the start

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of my day.

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I find it quite soothing to put my

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hands on my upper chest.

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I try and separate what my might

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be thinking versus the sensations

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in my body and what I'm feeling and

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just be like, okay. I'm feeling this

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feeling body.

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You're okay.

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And then the other one is if people

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do wake up in the middle of the

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night, one of the reasons

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might be blood sugar.

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So it's a point where if your blood

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sugar goes quite low, your body

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will put in cortisol to

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wake you up and to balance

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things. And then that's why you wake

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up at three in the morning.

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And so having a small snack

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before bed might help keep

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your sugar level

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constant through the night and then

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you don't wake up anyhow.

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Is the. I've done a lot of research.

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The second thing I wanted to ask you

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was Chris, Krista talked about

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normalizing the conversation of

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mental health by always

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asking the question in a 1 to 1

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of how do you feel on a scale of 1

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to 10? And I guess the question to

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you is maybe two parts, one of which

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is, A, how do you just fundamentally

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normalize the conversation of mental

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health in the organization?

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And then how do you activate line

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managers on it?

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And this little idea around asking

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a 1 to 10 scale of like, how are

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you doing?

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Do you think that's a good way to

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enter into that conversation?

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So I like the idea of the question.

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I've never used it.

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You know, once he said, it's like,

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yeah, I was supposed to use that

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question.

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I need to try to remember to do it.

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So maybe I'll stick a posted on it.

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As a reminder,

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in terms of the normalizing mental

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health, I really don't know what to

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say because I'm conflicted.

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There's part of me that

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thinks that we should talk about

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mental health and talk about what's

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going on and be able to

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share more of ourselves

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everywhere, including work.

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But then there's also a part of me

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that thinks that we've just gotten a

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bit too into it.

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And now I'm going to sound old

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fashioned.

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Like life can be hard

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and there could be ups and downs,

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and having a level of resilience

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is really important to survive

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work and the world.

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And I'm not saying that we should

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have horrible work environments,

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but I sometimes wonder if

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talking about it so much

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has stolen people's resilience.

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And so how do you find the balance

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between not being

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a toxic workplace where everybody

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is afraid but not

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being so

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accommodating is not the right word,

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but like so aware

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of it. And so

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I guess accommodating is the word

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that keeps coming to mind that

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that people can't get better,

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that everybody's expecting the world

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to bow to them rather than a little

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bit of both.

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I know exactly what you're saying.

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I think there's really a balance to

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be had here, and I think it's the

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line manager. Sometimes it becomes

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quite obvious

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that you need to start asking these

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questions. Like the person comes

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into the session, you have a bit of

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a chat, everything's okay,

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yada. But you can see in their eyes

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and you seen their behavior and they

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see the way they're kind of talking

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about things, that there's something

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happening and that at that point

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you're like, okay, I need to start

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asking some questions here in this

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respect. And maybe this is the

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balance that you're talking about,

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which is we don't need to have a

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mental health conversation every

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week. But I think by

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having a relationship and having

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trust between the two of us and me

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being able to pick up on cues that

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actually make sense.

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There is a time and place to have

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these conversations and to help that

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person.

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And one example that I can think

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about as I was talking with a very

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junior sales rep, she was new to

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sales and she was having confidence

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issues and she was trying to cover

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it up and trying to mask it from me

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in some form.

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And I remember having this

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conversation with her and I could

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see the tears behind

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her eyes, as it were.

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This weird how you can sense these

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things. I something. Okay,

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Something's afoot here.

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And then I started probing a little

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bit. And then, you know, the next

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thing you know, matures or flowing.

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And she's expressing to me that

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she's deeply concerned about her

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ability to be an effective

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salesperson and this and the other.

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And we had a wonderful conversation.

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We had a great outcome.

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And she's turned into a fantastic

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seller. So I think it's really those

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kind of spot specific places

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where you need to land.

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S in a way that's useful and

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effective without your point

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going overboard.

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While you were talking about your

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sales person,

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for example, it suddenly made

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me think about we're a bit lazy

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in the way that we talk about these

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things and we lump it all in as a

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mental health and we just kind of be

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like emotions, messy

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stuff.

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But mental health, because we lump

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it all two in together is really

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wide ranging from some imposter

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syndrome through to suicidal

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ideation because

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there's a really horrible possible

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end outcome.

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We're a bit afraid of it, and then

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it all comes together and then we

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just leave it there.

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Whereas your conversation

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that you had, I don't even know

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if I would put that down as mental

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health like we do just

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because we put it in this bucket of

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not standard old school,

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but really it's around high

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performance, isn't it?

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Like you have somebody who's not

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performing well because they don't

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think they can and are so afraid

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and in their heads

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that in order to get them to be a

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high performer, you need to

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understand what's holding them back.

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And I would argue that has nothing

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to do with mental health.

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And that's around resilient.

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And being able to have difficult

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conversations.

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So I'm thinking now maybe we should

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start to be clearer.

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Not you and I, but in this

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conversation.

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Emotions does not mean

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mental health.

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So we have some things set up.

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We have mental health first aid

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ers so we can direct them to

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them and at work who've had

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training.

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And then we also have access

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to free counseling via

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our insurance or

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our pension or whatever.

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And people can speak

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to somebody on the day,

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and then there's X number of

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sessions.

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So my advice would be, don't

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try and solve it yourself, don't

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take it on, but make sure you know

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what resources are available and

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send them to the right resources.

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But also at work, we do have to deal

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with people's mental health, as in

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people who have depression.

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People have anxiety disorders,

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people that have OCD.

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You know, there's like loads

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neurodiverse with certain issues,

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actual, you know, health

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issues. And I feel like because

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of that,

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we just overindex

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on on this mental health

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issue. But maybe we should be

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separating the people who need

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proper support

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and everybody else

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who needs some help in coaching,

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getting out of their own heads in

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order to do a good job.

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Yeah, I think you're right.

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I think there is a distinction here

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because things like depression

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and ADHD and so on, those are

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actual conditions.

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Some people have those conditions

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and some of those individuals do

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work in your company.

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So having a very clear strand of

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support for that distinctly

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makes sense. And you're right, that

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is kind of separate from

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generic business context

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challenges are having with people's

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confidence or anxieties or what have

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you, I suppose.

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So there probably is something

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there.

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Last question related to this.

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Just from a policy standpoint, if

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you're a CEO, you're in a scalable

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company.

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Is there anything else that you

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would see as kind of core to the

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mental health plank within your

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company?

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So now I'm thinking we should really

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define it, which is not something

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we've done. But just from today's

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conversation and my ideas of

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what is the point?

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Like, why are we focusing on mental

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health rather than it just being

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a trend? And it sounds good as

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an organization.

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And for me, there's a few reasons

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why you focus on it.

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One is purely

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the element that you need

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to have policies and

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protections and make sure

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that those who need support have

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support because you're

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legally required to.

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And then you have in

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order to have a high performance

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team.

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Arguably, you shouldn't have a toxic

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culture. And what does not having a

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toxic culture look like?

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And in our modern world, that

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includes a

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feeling of inclusivity,

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able to show up as yourself,

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able to say that you are

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struggling and not be ostracized

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for it. And I think that's a lot of

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what we lump into mental health.

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But for me, I don't know

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if it's mental health. Like I think

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I now need to redefine what I think

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of as mental health.

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And then that is

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in order to enable

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people to perform at their highest

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level.

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And then in order to do that, you

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need to support

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your managers to have those

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conversations, because people are

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afraid of having difficult

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conversations with emotions because

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we don't know what's going to happen.

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Like what if somebody cries?

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What if somebody gets angry?

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What if somebody says they think

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they're a failure?

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How are you going to handle it?

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And so giving your managers

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training and support to have

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those conversations and to feel

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comfortable with them and also

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for them to be able to

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shake it off afterwards, Because I

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think there are some times we

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ask a lot of managers, managers will

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overtake all of their team's

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feelings and you need to make sure

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that they're okay as well and are

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well-resourced and resilient

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to deal with what sometimes is a lot

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of emotion that they're dealing with

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on a daily basis.

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Love it. So why don't we park it

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here and get on to our conversation

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with Mr. Chris Hadfield.

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What is anxiety?

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So I am definitely someone

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who's very familiar with it.

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But there's not necessarily

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even to this day, a wide ranging

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understanding.

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And also it seems to be

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quite often coded as like a woman

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issue, or at least women can talk

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about it. So I think it would be

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interesting to understand it and how

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it shows up in men.

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I suppose the example I use is

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for people because I know plenty of

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people, I don't really get anxious,

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you know. And they come from a place

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of wanting to understand it.

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And most people do.

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I speak to some people are like, I

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just don't need to be anxious.

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It's not choice.

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But it's almost like the analogy I

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often use is like someone is about

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to spring a test on you and you

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don't know when the test will be,

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but your life depends on it and

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it will likely be on questions you

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don't know the answer to.

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And it's that constant feeling

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of uncertainty,

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of that kind of what's

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going to happen. I don't know what's

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going to happen. Here's all the

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worst case scenarios.

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And even being anxious

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about not being anxious when

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everything is, it's almost like

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that. That stability, that calm

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is when that can provoke it as well.

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It's it's not even saying that.

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But when everything is fine, you're

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okay. Is that. Well, no, it's more

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about your internal kind of weather

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forecast rather than the external.

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And I avoid so just defining

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it because it shows up so

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differently for so many people in

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terms of like where it sits, how

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it feels, what those kind of

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thoughts are.

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But it is it's a signal.

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And sometimes it might be it's

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like the smoke alarm going off.

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Sometimes the smoke alarm might be a

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little bit faulty and I might need

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the batteries changing.

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It might just need to be doing some

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inner work for that.

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But sometimes it might be trying to

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tell you something ahead of time.

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My experience with anxiety is

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that I'd like the fire alarm

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analogy in that everything's

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tripping the fire alarm when

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it doesn't necessarily have to,

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and that I can almost handle more

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than when I just feel fear

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and there's no story in my mind.

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And I'm not stoking

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the fire. But no matter what I

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do, I can't get away from

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feeling afraid.

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And I find that really

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upsetting because there's no

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control over it, because I'm not

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thinking things.

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And so those times I kind of just,

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like, try and calm my

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physical body.

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Gravity, blankets, Distraction.

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I try not to numb it with alcohol,

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but sometimes numb it with alcohol

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and just know that it'll pass.

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Have you experienced that kind of

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anxiety as well where it's

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not tied to anything?

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Yeah, and it kind of links that

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piece when there isn't anything to

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be anxious about. There is no one

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single thing.

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I'll ask you a question first.

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Like when you're when you're feeling

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like that, are you trying to do

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something to stop yourself?

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Feeling anxious is out there.

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And trying to survive it.

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So I'm trying to just get through

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it, knowing it'll come out the other

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side. But feeling

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scared is a really uncomfortable

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feeling. Like even just as I'm

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describing it now, I can feel the

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tightness in my chest, I can feel

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the tightness in my stomach.

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There's like a level of panic

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that is physically in my body, and

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it's an uncomfortable feeling.

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And if it like passes in a minute

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or two, fine.

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But that can last

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days.

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And at that point is how do I

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cope until it passes?

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And then I'll just add this as a

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side point.

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I have started HRT

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and all of my anxiety has gone away

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and I did not realize how bad

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it was for the ten years is

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like a bathtub filling.

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So it's like drip, drip, drip of

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anxiety. And I didn't notice it

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until the point that I was basically

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having panic attacks and I was like,

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okay, there's something going on.

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I'm of the age of maybe needing

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HRT. Went to my doctor a couple of

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times is like, because I'm very

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high functioning, No, you're fine.

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And then I finally guess what it's

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like, This isn't right.

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Finally took it.

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Two days later, the plug

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in the bathtub was pulled.

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All the anxiety went away.

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And I was like, my God,

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I forgot. This is how I used to feel

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because it was a ten year process.

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So I'm now actually trying to

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imagine the anxiety that I lived

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with constantly for such a long

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time.

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I think there's two things here.

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I think one is I

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think it's always important to be

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patient with yourself when you do

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feel a certain way.

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I think when I talk about these

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things, I'm also conscious of

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knowing that sometimes you need to

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sit with that feeling and that's

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okay. It's it's knowing that there

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isn't going to be anything that's

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going to try and move it in the same

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way. If you had a cold, you know,

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yes, you can take remedies.

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Yes. You can wrap up warm.

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Yes, you can take the snow, the

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tablets, you one, but you're still

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going to feel a certain way for a

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period of time. And if you took a

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lemon sip from, why am I not better

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already, you're only going to make

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yourself feel worse.

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The worst thing you can do is judge

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yourself for it.

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So I think that self-talk is a big

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piece there around how you initially

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respond to it without judgment and

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observe that.

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One thing that can help here is

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giving it a name, like naming

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that feeling.

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I was working with someone last

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year that had panic attacks around

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public speaking, so they'd have very

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real examples of not just I'm

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feeling anxious, I've had a panic

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attack here and.

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They named theirs James, James

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or someone they went with.

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And whenever they suggested

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something, James would get super

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anxious about it.

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So he started using, James

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is starting to feel a bit anxious

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about this presentation.

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James is a bit anxious about

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this QB.

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That hasn't even been put in the air

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and I haven't got anything to be

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anxious about, but I am.

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And he just found an issue like

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straight away. There was such a

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different response to it because it

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wasn't him. It's not you, it's not

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you are not your anxiety.

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And then the second thing I think

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that can help is when you are

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filling in that state is thinking

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about what am I trying to move

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towards rather than away from.

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So if I'm trying to stop myself

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feeling anxious, all I'm thinking

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about is being anxious.

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If I'm trying to stop myself from

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feeling scared, I'm just going, Am I

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still scared?

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So it's almost thinking, what do I

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want to move towards?

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Do I want to feel calmer?

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Do I want to feel more relaxed on a

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feel focused, motivated?

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So it's thinking about what's the

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state? And then I

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might still do the same thing, wrap

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myself with blankets, I might still

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write journal, whatever it might be,

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but I'm doing it with a different

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kind of intention in mind and

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one that I can maybe better

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understand and measure how I'm doing

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towards it, whilst also

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knowing I'll do these things.

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And sometimes it might pass in ten

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minutes and it might not.

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So here's a question for you, Chris.

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So when does it become or start

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to become a problem whereby you need

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to be proactive about it, either in

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terms of yourself or line management

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or the company?

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I think where it becomes a problem

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is where, first of all is occupying

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your mind constantly.

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You know, it's stopping you from

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fitting present with your partner

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and your friends. And the evening

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it's taking up your weekends.

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It's maybe driving you to

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think you always need to be checking

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emails.

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And this is where the balance is, of

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course, because anxiety can also

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help you be proactive with deals

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that can make you think about what

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could go wrong.

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Where I think it's healthy is where

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you're thinking that and then you're

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acting on it.

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Whereas unhealthy is when you're

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thinking these things and you're

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just allowing it to consume you and

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it's almost paralyzing you and you

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know, you're not taking any actions

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as a result of it.

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You're just letting it project in

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your mind and therefore

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not showing up in the

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way you want. And you have

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identities outside of work.

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And even the identity and work is

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it's causing you to go into

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situations feeling less confident

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or more apprehensive

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or more uncertain about things

Speaker:

or even pessimistic about things.

Speaker:

And then if you want to put the

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company or the line manager in a

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position to start to be proactive

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about mental health, proactive about

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anxiety or proactive about burnout,

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what are the initial set of tools

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or techniques that you can arm a

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company with or ally manager

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with to start to identify what

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is happening with employees and then

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B start to do something about it

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that's useful.

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Yeah, I think one of the biggest

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things is just the types of

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conversations you have.

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You know, if you wait until someone

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is struggling to try and have a

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conversation with them, they're

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going to feel like, actually this is

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a trap. Like, are you just asking me

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this because you've got some

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redundancies coming up or

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you know, you need to get rid of me

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or I'm not performing.

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So now you only care about my

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numbers when I'm not performing.

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But when I was or when I was doing

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in the middle, you weren't asking

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about this. So I can come across

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very insincere, of course,

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when you do it that way.

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So I think it's normalizing.

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The conversation is asking questions

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even before you think there is a an

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issue or a problem if someone

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is showing you care, I think scaling

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questions could be really useful

Speaker:

because the last question we asked

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you on a daily basis, how are you?

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How are you?

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Alright, I'm not bad, you know,

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and it's just this automated

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response.

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So I think even scaling questions

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and getting into the habit of asking

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people like, how do you feel on a

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scale of 1 to 10.

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I You mean by scaling question

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Because I'm just like, how do you

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scale a business?

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How do you hire more people?

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How are you feeling on a scale of 1

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to 10, just in general, not like

Speaker:

your anxiety or anything.

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And some people might say, I'm, I'm

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A70, what makes it seven?

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Well, you know, this is going on.

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And here is you're going into

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what are you feeling rather than how

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are you feeling or what's on your

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mind? And someone might be like

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one week or seven, they might go,

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I'm an eight. Okay.

Speaker:

Like, what's changed? What are you

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doing as a result?

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What are you still doing?

Speaker:

Someone might start to go, I'm a

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six, I'm a five.

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And throughout that you can go,

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What's changed here?

Speaker:

Or if someone has dropped a few

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numbers, For example, you might go.

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When we spoke last month, you were

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here. Like, this is what you said

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you were thinking, feeling and

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doing.

Speaker:

What would you say has changed since

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then? And sometimes they might not

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be anything. And it's good to

Speaker:

reassure someone that, look, you're

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still doing the right things.

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It's okay.

Speaker:

People can allow the

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numbers to dictate how they feel, of

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course, or that process to think

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everything is working is going well.

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It is. This is where, you know,

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people say trust the process.

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But I think you've got to trust

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yourself before you trust the

Speaker:

process. I think that's the missing

Speaker:

piece. I think a manager also

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being prepared to be vulnerable.

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You know, vulnerability builds,

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release, ability and vulnerability

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and accountability don't go on

Speaker:

separate scale was just because

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you're more vulnerable. It doesn't

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make someone less accountable.

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Or the more you encourage

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someone to be vulnerable, it doesn't

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mean they're less accountable.

Speaker:

As a result, they actually sharing.

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I felt like this and not even just

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when someone is sharing this, but

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proactively.

Speaker:

This is how I felt six months in and

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this is how I felt when I when I'm.

Speaker:

Stay on the steal. And here's what I

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did as a result of it.

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You know, normalizing it rather than

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what people can look at as managers

Speaker:

and leaders and go, you're just this

Speaker:

superhero almost sometimes, or

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you don't know what it's like.

Speaker:

You've not being where I've been and

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you're not doing it in a way of

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going, I've done what you've done

Speaker:

and, you know, trying to outshine

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someone.

Speaker:

Just try to humanize yourself,

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really.

Speaker:

Just as a side note.

Speaker:

One of my biggest surprises

Speaker:

as I became more senior was that I

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was still me.

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And I just mean like, because when

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you're a junior person looking at

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these fancy execs

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and their big houses and their big

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salaries and like, why would they

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have any worries in the world?

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And they have everything sorted.

Speaker:

Because I found my 20s really hard.

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So anybody who looked like their

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lives were sorted, I was just in awe

Speaker:

of.

Speaker:

And then I kind of became that

Speaker:

person.

Speaker:

And I have a bigger house and I have

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a bigger salary, but like,

Speaker:

I still have all of my worries and

Speaker:

the anxiety and different

Speaker:

problems and school fees

Speaker:

and like, are my children

Speaker:

going to be okay?

Speaker:

Are they going to launch?

Speaker:

Are they not going to launch?

Speaker:

Lost my parents, lost my

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grandparents. Like life

Speaker:

is still very complicated.

Speaker:

Even if on the outside

Speaker:

you have things that somebody who's

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more junior wants and

Speaker:

they don't realize that you're still

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a person.

Speaker:

And I'm projecting how I felt when I

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was that age, and I didn't think

Speaker:

that senior execs were people

Speaker:

that were relatable.

Speaker:

So I think that there's an element

Speaker:

of just sharing that you're a full

Speaker:

person for a lot of people is quite

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a surprise.

Speaker:

I still remember that conversation

Speaker:

we had both when you came on the

Speaker:

course that did the stress and

Speaker:

burnout prevention, and you sat down

Speaker:

with someone who was feeling

Speaker:

overwhelmed and went through one of

Speaker:

the exercises and talk about

Speaker:

being yourself.

Speaker:

And you did the same time,

Speaker:

didn't you? And even doing that was

Speaker:

like, it wasn't you weren't doing

Speaker:

it in a disingenuous way to go,

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Well, I've got problems as well as

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who are you? But it was like relate

Speaker:

ability is it's kind of I'm being

Speaker:

vulnerable here as well, and not

Speaker:

just sitting here from my high

Speaker:

top chair judging you for it.

Speaker:

Should we talk about that exercise?

Speaker:

Actually, because it was one that I

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found really helpful.

Speaker:

So just put a bit of context.

Speaker:

I joined a meeting

Speaker:

and the person in the meeting

Speaker:

was in total overwhelm.

Speaker:

They started talking

Speaker:

and immediately started to cry.

Speaker:

Had too much work, too

Speaker:

much pressure and did not

Speaker:

know where to go

Speaker:

next.

Speaker:

And I had happened to be on your

Speaker:

course and we had just covered one

Speaker:

of the exercises and it was amazing

Speaker:

to have that tool in my arsenal.

Speaker:

Yeah. So it's the stress container.

Speaker:

Exercise is a couple of different

Speaker:

versions. We have a level of stress

Speaker:

that we can manage before it starts

Speaker:

to fill to the top.

Speaker:

And if you imagine it's like a

Speaker:

bucket, every thing that comes

Speaker:

in big, small,

Speaker:

positive or negative, we sometimes

Speaker:

forget that. But even positive

Speaker:

things, we can have positive stress

Speaker:

that will contribute to a stress.

Speaker:

And when it gets that top and you

Speaker:

don't have the taps to release it,

Speaker:

that's where it starts to spill

Speaker:

over. That's where burnout can

Speaker:

occur. That's where overwhelm can

Speaker:

occur.

Speaker:

So the idea behind the stress

Speaker:

container is thinking about,

Speaker:

first of all, when you can even do

Speaker:

this for a particular day

Speaker:

or you're working on it could be a

Speaker:

particular challenge in your life.

Speaker:

It could be your anxiety that we've

Speaker:

talked about. It could be everything

Speaker:

almost going, What's everything

Speaker:

going in my stress container right

Speaker:

now? I would really encourage people

Speaker:

when you're doing this to to write

Speaker:

like not just type but.

Speaker:

Right. Because when we write, we use

Speaker:

the rational part of our brain as

Speaker:

well that the idea

Speaker:

behind the issue you draw everything

Speaker:

down. First of all got right here's

Speaker:

everything that's going into my

Speaker:

stress container and even that in

Speaker:

itself straight away, sometimes you

Speaker:

might be like, there's not as much

Speaker:

as I thought, or even just looking

Speaker:

at it on paper if it was more

Speaker:

manageable or that does feel

Speaker:

quite a lot. And that's where that

Speaker:

compassion can come in and go, Hey,

Speaker:

look, if a friend was telling me

Speaker:

this and I sit and I and I said

Speaker:

I wasn't overwhelmed or stressed,

Speaker:

they would think I'm a robot or they

Speaker:

would think, like, why do you don't

Speaker:

care? Like, all of this is going

Speaker:

on. So it can work both ways,

Speaker:

really. Then what you want to do

Speaker:

is you then circle what's within my

Speaker:

control here.

Speaker:

So what can I do something

Speaker:

about? What can't I control?

Speaker:

And sometimes just even writing

Speaker:

those things down and labeling that,

Speaker:

you know the phrase I used, the

Speaker:

scene you accept to wall is all the

Speaker:

less time and energy you spend

Speaker:

trying to push it over.

Speaker:

And I ask people sometimes if they

Speaker:

come to a session, how did you get

Speaker:

here today? The tube?

Speaker:

How long did it take you? An hour.

Speaker:

If you went straight from door to

Speaker:

door in the tube, it would be 20

Speaker:

minutes. Why didn't you get annoyed

Speaker:

that you couldn't get a tube

Speaker:

straight from your house to here?

Speaker:

When I come because I can't control?

Speaker:

Exactly. There's so many things

Speaker:

already. Each day we choose what we

Speaker:

we get annoyed about or stressed

Speaker:

about, and there's a lot of things

Speaker:

we just accept.

Speaker:

So then it's going okay out of what

Speaker:

I can control. Let's put a little

Speaker:

asterix to the 2 or 3 biggest

Speaker:

things. If I think right now, what's

Speaker:

the thing that's taking up the most

Speaker:

space? What's the thing in the

Speaker:

bucket that's causing the most

Speaker:

weight? It's going okay.

Speaker:

It's this is this thing is this

Speaker:

feeling is this situation.

Speaker:

And then asking for each of those

Speaker:

what's 1 or 2 things in my control I

Speaker:

can do right now to

Speaker:

reduce or remove this?

Speaker:

So what it allows people to do is

Speaker:

to take that bird's eye view to

Speaker:

identify what's in their control,

Speaker:

but also to come out with.

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Some very action orientated steps,

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2 or 3 small ones that

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they can take and boil it

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down from a feeling and to an action

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which makes people feel more in

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control. And when we feel more in

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control of something, we

Speaker:

automatically reduce our levels of

Speaker:

anxiety or stress because

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it's a very present feeling that we

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can do in the moment.

Speaker:

So when we

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did it together, we

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did not actually get to the action

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part just because I think we were

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doing it together and it was a great

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way to

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help them transition from overwhelm

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and just that transition from

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overwhelm and the writing

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it all down.

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Got it from the swirling

Speaker:

in your head where you kind of

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put it down, pick it up, put it

Speaker:

down, pick it up. So it seems like

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it's five things, but it's actually

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one thing.

Speaker:

And when you write it down, you

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realize what are the individual

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things that are going on.

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And then I think the only reason we

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didn't get to the action part was

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because I did it at the same time.

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And they were so surprised by mine

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that it kind of like changed

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the conversation in a way.

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And so it had the right effect of

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moving out of overwhelm.

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And then it had like a

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bonding effect between us.

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We were a bit in it together because

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I think one of my concerns was I'm

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not doing a good job and I'm going

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to get fired.

Speaker:

And they were so shocked by me

Speaker:

writing that down again, kind of to

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my earlier point of

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junior people thinking senior people

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are amazing and don't

Speaker:

have those fears and also would

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never be fired because clearly,

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like, not clearly, but from their

Speaker:

point of view, I was doing a good

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job. So why was that even in the

Speaker:

list? I just remember that one

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moment and their face, like

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seeing that, just the shock and

Speaker:

confusion, it just shifted.

Speaker:

Everything calmed them down.

Speaker:

And then we were I guess we did have

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an action plan, but we didn't do the

Speaker:

circling. I probably forgot about

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the circling, but we had a okay,

Speaker:

so what's the next most important

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thing on this incredible list

Speaker:

here? Here's a prioritization.

Speaker:

And then they were able to go.

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Often focus on the one thing.

Speaker:

Yeah. And I think that exercise is,

Speaker:

you know, going back to your

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question earlier on, Brandon, I

Speaker:

would encourage groups do that even

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before they get to that point of

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overwhelm as well.

Speaker:

Even even sometimes at the end

Speaker:

of your day, if you've had quite a

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busy day and you don't feel

Speaker:

necessarily massively stressed, but

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you just think there's a lot going

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on in your brain that is going to

Speaker:

cause you to overthink.

Speaker:

There's a separate tool I've used

Speaker:

for this, the brain dump exercise

Speaker:

that I just wanna reference.

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One last analogy for that piece

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there. I think when you when you get

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all your thoughts down on page, it's

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a bit like looking at a jigsaw

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puzzle in a box.

Speaker:

It can seem like you just can't

Speaker:

solve it, but you throw it on the

Speaker:

table when you like, okay, there's

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some corners like I'm nowhere

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near finish this, but at least I

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know where to start with it.

Speaker:

And I think that's the most

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important thing here, is that we

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know that we don't always need

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to have an answer, but if we have a

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starting point and some

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controllable things we can do,

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that's enough for us.

Speaker:

A lot of the time to go right

Speaker:

is when we feel out of control.

Speaker:

It's when we feel helpless, when we

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don't know where to start.

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It's where we are thinking about all

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the things we can't control.

Speaker:

The brain dump, exercise.

Speaker:

The reason I mention it is because,

Speaker:

again, I think this is another

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proactive tool, because it is often

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we're so busy in our day, we don't

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have time to reflect on it.

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You know, it's a bit like being in a

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CGI film.

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You're so busy filming behind a

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green screen, it doesn't make any

Speaker:

sense until you watch it back at

Speaker:

the end of it. It's kind of like,

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Well, what was I doing?

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Like, you know, I was the lives of

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people in just green outfits.

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I just that weird let me watch the

Speaker:

film.

Speaker:

And when we don't have that,

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our brain then starts thinking about

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the day and then our primal

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brain, the amygdala, the slowdown

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and shake thing that sits in that.

Speaker:

It's like that smoke alarm that's

Speaker:

often where all of our irrational

Speaker:

thoughts or anxiety, our emotions

Speaker:

are feeling set will go off.

Speaker:

And that part of our brain doesn't

Speaker:

know the difference between the

Speaker:

past, the present and the future.

Speaker:

So we all think everything that

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we're thinking about needs to be

Speaker:

solved right now or is going to

Speaker:

happen right now in its current

Speaker:

state, which is why we're lying in

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bed at 10 or 11 p.m.

Speaker:

thinking about all of these things.

Speaker:

So the brain dump exercise is

Speaker:

four quadrants.

Speaker:

It's pending wins, challenges,

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solutions.

Speaker:

Say the first quadrant.

Speaker:

You write down everything that's on

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your mind. So maybe some of the

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similar things that you've written

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down in that stress container.

Speaker:

And the idea here is that when

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you're writing it down, you're

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sequentially telling your brain,

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we're not going to forget about it.

Speaker:

Anyone who has kids will know.

Speaker:

Like when you write things down,

Speaker:

it's why kids get given timetables

Speaker:

at school. It's why putting things

Speaker:

on Netflix, If your kids are asking

Speaker:

you for something, write it down.

Speaker:

Go. Look, we're not forgetting about

Speaker:

this. We will come back to it.

Speaker:

It's a good little technique, but it

Speaker:

works for the same for our brains,

Speaker:

is that we don't need to keep this

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top of mind, is there?

Speaker:

And our brains don't understand,

Speaker:

even if it's in a calendar on us, on

Speaker:

a spreadsheet behind 72

Speaker:

by the top, that isn't the answer.

Speaker:

So you depending, then you do wins.

Speaker:

The wins is about that reflection.

Speaker:

I think again, a big part of

Speaker:

overwhelmed burnout

Speaker:

imposter syndrome. All these things

Speaker:

comes from a lack of self

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reflection, comes from not

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recognizing the progress we're

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making. So we're constantly thinking

Speaker:

we're not there yet. We're not there

Speaker:

yet. We need to keep pushing and

Speaker:

just giving yourself that moment.

Speaker:

Each state is 2 or 3 things

Speaker:

that went well today know what

Speaker:

happened, but what did I do?

Speaker:

And it could be as simple as

Speaker:

I got out for a walk at lunch, for

Speaker:

example, or, you know, what

Speaker:

was the controllable thing.

Speaker:

I start I sent an email to this

Speaker:

person and started this

Speaker:

conversation.

Speaker:

Challenges is going right

Speaker:

rather than just going, It's been a

Speaker:

super stressful day or I've had a

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terrible week is what

Speaker:

made it that.

Speaker:

Like what made it a stressful day?

Speaker:

There's very rarely a stressful day.

Speaker:

It's probably 2 or 3 moments in the

Speaker:

day, so write those things down.

Speaker:

Did you get co-operative email?

Speaker:

Did you get coins for meeting that

Speaker:

you really didn't need to be part of

Speaker:

that actually challenges then your

Speaker:

solutions is, Well, what can I do

Speaker:

tomorrow or next week to proactively

Speaker:

avoid this? Can I check the

Speaker:

urgency of this conversation before

Speaker:

I have it? Can I ask this person for

Speaker:

an agenda for the meeting

Speaker:

beforehand?

Speaker:

Can I close down Slack or LinkedIn

Speaker:

before I start making prospects and

Speaker:

devote myself getting distracted to

Speaker:

things?

Speaker:

So when you have this, you have a

Speaker:

blueprint that you can look at at

Speaker:

the time again, regulate you, but

Speaker:

throughout your evening or your

Speaker:

weekend, you have a plan.

Speaker:

You can look at it and it reassures

Speaker:

your brain straight away when it

Speaker:

starts to come up and go, what about

Speaker:

this is too look, we're okay, we've

Speaker:

got this.

Speaker:

So if we just pull back for a moment

Speaker:

from the individual level to the

Speaker:

company level, let's imagine that

Speaker:

I'm a CEO, which I am, and

Speaker:

I'm joining our organization, let's

Speaker:

say 150 people.

Speaker:

And mental health as an actual thing

Speaker:

has not really been discussed in the

Speaker:

company to date in any real formal

Speaker:

way. Perhaps it has on the

Speaker:

individual level, but not on the

Speaker:

kind of company corporate level at

Speaker:

that point.

Speaker:

So as a CEO and joining that

Speaker:

company, what are some of

Speaker:

the initial things that I should do

Speaker:

to get the ball rolling on that

Speaker:

front? Or what would you recommend?

Speaker:

Anonymous survey to address

Speaker:

all the elephant in the room.

Speaker:

How well supported do you feel on a

Speaker:

scale of 1 to 10, how would you feel

Speaker:

on a scale of 1 to 10, How

Speaker:

supportive do you find the managers?

Speaker:

What do you think is

Speaker:

in our control to support you?

Speaker:

It's like just lay out on the table

Speaker:

and don't just do that as an

Speaker:

anonymous survey. Take away, share

Speaker:

it. If you really want to take this

Speaker:

seriously in the same way you put

Speaker:

sales numbers up there and you

Speaker:

wouldn't pretend that,

Speaker:

you know, what we're doing really

Speaker:

well know is like everyone knows

Speaker:

we're not. Because they can see the

Speaker:

numbers. It's the same with

Speaker:

everyone. How they're feeling is

Speaker:

just cause you're not talking about

Speaker:

it. The sales team are with each

Speaker:

other and if they're not, it's even

Speaker:

more unhealthy because they're

Speaker:

talking about it with their partner.

Speaker:

And if they're not, it's even more

Speaker:

unhealthy because they're just

Speaker:

keeping it to themselves.

Speaker:

So I think do that survey,

Speaker:

have an open discussion and say,

Speaker:

look, we listened.

Speaker:

Here's what you said.

Speaker:

Here's the things that some of the

Speaker:

stuff we might not be able to

Speaker:

control and that's important to

Speaker:

address as one guy.

Speaker:

This is the nature of where as

Speaker:

a business or where we're as

Speaker:

a company or just what we do in

Speaker:

general or the nature of sales.

Speaker:

And that's okay as well, is to

Speaker:

is to be able to go, we can't do

Speaker:

anything about this.

Speaker:

And that's all right. And knowing

Speaker:

what you can and what you can't do,

Speaker:

but then going, here's what we can

Speaker:

do, then here's what we're visibly

Speaker:

going to do.

Speaker:

I think that would be the most

Speaker:

important step for me because it

Speaker:

just shows people that you really

Speaker:

do care about this.

Speaker:

It's not just a tick box.

Speaker:

It's not just a mental health

Speaker:

awareness Week is coming up and

Speaker:

we're going to get someone to come

Speaker:

in and talk.

Speaker:

So that would be my step 1 or 2.

Speaker:

So I'm very interested in step

Speaker:

three. So we've done the survey.

Speaker:

We want to do something.

Speaker:

I guess the question of what's the

Speaker:

initial thrust like, what would

Speaker:

actually make the most sense to kind

Speaker:

of cover off the 8020 rolls, the

Speaker:

stands?

Speaker:

The piece I mentioned that Iran is

Speaker:

one power that is encouraging

Speaker:

managers of even giving them

Speaker:

education or training around how to

Speaker:

have these conversations, even like

Speaker:

mental health, first day training

Speaker:

could be useful thing as a maybe,

Speaker:

not as initial step, but as a in

Speaker:

the future. Like here's something we

Speaker:

do sign up for just to give people

Speaker:

greater awareness around it and how

Speaker:

they bring it up in conversations.

Speaker:

I think giving people

Speaker:

space of almost making it part

Speaker:

of onboarding as well as an

Speaker:

important piece.

Speaker:

You know, when people go is best

Speaker:

practice of what a week looks like.

Speaker:

If you're an A, B, D, R, and B

Speaker:

or CSM is is a best

Speaker:

practice Well being as well, like

Speaker:

incorporate that.

Speaker:

So I think it's having that in the

Speaker:

onboarding, it's having that

Speaker:

best practice of here's how to take

Speaker:

care of yourself. It's it's also

Speaker:

giving people not just minimum

Speaker:

expectations but lower boundaries,

Speaker:

but also upper boundaries,

Speaker:

you know, particularly when they

Speaker:

first start is yeah, here's

Speaker:

what the minimum we expect but also

Speaker:

be cautious of going to follow the

Speaker:

other way of you know only

Speaker:

I think Beth or the shop

Speaker:

could regulate when he was at sales

Speaker:

off the email people start

Speaker:

walking off I thought I can see you

Speaker:

on line get off like, you know, like

Speaker:

this isn't what we want.

Speaker:

This isn't what we need.

Speaker:

I sometimes might need to do it, but

Speaker:

I'm not doing it every day.

Speaker:

And I think that's the other thing

Speaker:

as well as leaders communicating

Speaker:

things is people often do.

Speaker:

It's not what it is, is how it looks

Speaker:

and how you communicate.

Speaker:

That as well is really important.

Speaker:

So I think onboarding is an

Speaker:

important part.

Speaker:

I think in one to ones, I think when

Speaker:

you're talking about training is

Speaker:

going how are we incorporating

Speaker:

training around if we're going to do

Speaker:

objection handling or if we're going

Speaker:

to do how you

Speaker:

recall with these other training

Speaker:

around like DNI and all these other

Speaker:

pieces, how we kind of incorporating

Speaker:

mindset and wellbeing training into

Speaker:

that? Like are we giving people a

Speaker:

better understanding of here's what

Speaker:

stress is like, here's what healthy

Speaker:

stress or unhealthy stress looks

Speaker:

like, here's what anxiety

Speaker:

looks like, here's how to support

Speaker:

each other with that.

Speaker:

I think just embedding it and going,

Speaker:

this should just be like an adds on.

Speaker:

It should be blended in

Speaker:

with managers conversations.

Speaker:

And then we have a space for when

Speaker:

people do feel the same way.

Speaker:

And that's the biggest thing is the

Speaker:

test that when someone does feel

Speaker:

like that, how do you respond to it?

Speaker:

What's the actual conversation?

Speaker:

And a manager shouldn't be like, Go

Speaker:

and speak to each other about it.

Speaker:

They should be like, you know, and

Speaker:

this is the other thing which I

Speaker:

think a lot of a struggle with for

Speaker:

this topic is what if I don't know

Speaker:

the answer? What if I can't fix it?

Speaker:

And it's like, you don't need to fix

Speaker:

it that need to have an answer all

Speaker:

the time. It's just holding space

Speaker:

for someone to be able to talk out

Speaker:

loud and show

Speaker:

that you understand. And you might

Speaker:

be. You might not be the person to

Speaker:

solve that, but it's being

Speaker:

there to bring them to the person

Speaker:

or encourage them to find

Speaker:

those resources.

Speaker:

When it comes to sales specifically,

Speaker:

it's quite unique in a way versus

Speaker:

the rest of the company because

Speaker:

there's no other part of the company

Speaker:

that has a quota per

Speaker:

quarter or per month.

Speaker:

Right. And they're always being held

Speaker:

to account there. Their feet are

Speaker:

always to the fire.

Speaker:

The numbers are always there in

Speaker:

front of them. So the question of

Speaker:

anxiety and stress associated

Speaker:

with that is uniquely related

Speaker:

to sales. And I'm just curious, from

Speaker:

your point of view, is there

Speaker:

anything I don't know different

Speaker:

that a company might think about

Speaker:

doing for sales specifically to

Speaker:

combat that, the quota

Speaker:

system.

Speaker:

Getting rid of quotas?

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker:

I think it kind of comes back to

Speaker:

earlier on kind of that stress

Speaker:

container is really boiling it down

Speaker:

to is someone really clear

Speaker:

on what's in their control

Speaker:

and what they can do about it.

Speaker:

And when things don't go well, are

Speaker:

you able to coach

Speaker:

someone or give them that space

Speaker:

to recognize what they could and

Speaker:

couldn't control because

Speaker:

knocked back some failure and get

Speaker:

lumped in all together?

Speaker:

Sometimes. And sometimes yes, there

Speaker:

is a time when someone could work

Speaker:

on something and change something.

Speaker:

Sometimes there isn't.

Speaker:

Sometimes there is the you did

Speaker:

everything right, like the complex

Speaker:

failure, but something externally

Speaker:

happened. You have control and

Speaker:

it's knowing when to keep

Speaker:

persevering. So I think that's the.

Speaker:

Biggest challenge to sales people

Speaker:

will go, Well, I was doing this last

Speaker:

call, which I've just started doing

Speaker:

this and nothing works and now I

Speaker:

need to change it.

Speaker:

And I said, Well, not necessarily.

Speaker:

But it doesn't mean you shouldn't.

Speaker:

But it's probably because, again,

Speaker:

lack of self-reflection.

Speaker:

A lot of people, particularly in

Speaker:

sales and companies in general, will

Speaker:

want to celebrate success, but they

Speaker:

don't want to analyze it as much as

Speaker:

they do failure.

Speaker:

Like if you're going to sit in a

Speaker:

room after poor culture and

Speaker:

go for it for a day and go, what

Speaker:

happened? Are you doing that for?

Speaker:

When things go well, you spending

Speaker:

as much time reflecting on that

Speaker:

success as a as a company overall,

Speaker:

first for then leaders, then as a

Speaker:

team as well. It doesn't just come

Speaker:

from one place, because the more

Speaker:

you recognize that, the more you

Speaker:

recognize what you're thinking,

Speaker:

feeling and doing. When things are

Speaker:

going well, the more you can

Speaker:

maintain it. And then when things

Speaker:

aren't, you can check yourself and

Speaker:

go, Am I still doing these things?

Speaker:

Yes. Okay.

Speaker:

Trust the process because I trust

Speaker:

myself more.

Speaker:

Here's the things we've stopped

Speaker:

doing is the things that sometimes

Speaker:

we do because we think, I don't do

Speaker:

that anymore because I'm good now.

Speaker:

Because I know you're good. Because

Speaker:

you were doing those things like

Speaker:

make them part of the process rather

Speaker:

than I don't need that anymore.

Speaker:

And fine is that maybe you'll find

Speaker:

because you've been doing this

Speaker:

thing.

Speaker:

Kind of like a self retrofit.

Speaker:

But I also think it's about the self

Speaker:

retro and actually businesses should

Speaker:

do more retros.

Speaker:

So self-reflection and business

Speaker:

reflection. What's working, what's

Speaker:

not.

Speaker:

If there's only one thing

Speaker:

our listeners can take away from

Speaker:

the conversation today, what is it?

Speaker:

Whatever you're feeling, whether

Speaker:

it's stress, anxiety,

Speaker:

overwhelm is asking what

Speaker:

is this trying to tell me?

Speaker:

This is why is this happening to me?

Speaker:

But asking that question,

Speaker:

saying as a signal, what is this

Speaker:

trying to do was the reason I'm

Speaker:

anxious. I'm anxious because I'm

Speaker:

worried this meeting won't go to

Speaker:

plan. I'm anxious that

Speaker:

this conversation might be difficult

Speaker:

to have and going, okay,

Speaker:

well, what's 1 or 2 things I can do

Speaker:

to proactively work on this?

Speaker:

So that's one. Now just and the

Speaker:

second thing is be proactively

Speaker:

think about something.

Speaker:

Don't just wait until you need

Speaker:

something.

Speaker:

You know, in the same way, if it's 2

Speaker:

p.m. on a Saturday night sorry, 2

Speaker:

p.m. on a Saturday and you're going

Speaker:

out in the evening with friends and

Speaker:

your friends on 20%, you charge

Speaker:

it because you know it's going to

Speaker:

run out back to the evening.

Speaker:

Treat your energy the same way.

Speaker:

Like proactively recharge yourself,

Speaker:

proactively do things before you

Speaker:

need them. Because if you don't,

Speaker:

because we're going to go on some

Speaker:

battery saving mode and that's when

Speaker:

you are going to be more reactive.

Speaker:

So the more proactive you are, the

Speaker:

less reactive you need to be and

Speaker:

the more prior to the of these

Speaker:

things, the more likely you are to

Speaker:

use them when you really need them.

Speaker:

Thank you, Chris, for joining us on

Speaker:

the operations room.

Speaker:

If you like what you hear, please

Speaker:

leave a comment or subscribe and

Speaker:

we'll see you next week.

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About the Podcast

The Operations Room: A Podcast for COO’s
We are the COO coaches to help you successfully scale in this new world where efficiency is as important as growth. Remember when valuations were 3-10x ARR and money wasn’t free? We do. Each week we share our experiences and bring in scale up experts and operational leaders to help you navigate both the burning operational issues and the larger existential challenges. Beth Ayers is the former COO of Peak AI, NewVoiceMedia and Codilty and has helped raise over $200m from top funds - Softbank, Bessemer, TCV, MCC, Notion and Oxx. Brandon Mensinga is the former COO of Signal AI and Trint.

About your host

Profile picture for Brandon Mensinga

Brandon Mensinga