72. Is the COO the Single Source of Truth?
In this episode we discuss: Is the COO the single source of truth? We are joined by Eric Collins, Investor, Serial Entrepreneur, CEO & Founding Member at Impact X Capital investing in underrepresented entrepreneurs; Author of We Don’t Need Permission (amzn.to/3Qp6G9d); & Host of Channel 4's The Money Maker.
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We chat about the following with Eric Collins:
- What makes the COO the true "source of truth" in scaling a venture-backed company?
- How can COOs balance growth while CFOs maintain financial discipline—and why does this partnership make or break success?
- Why is succession planning not just a CEO concern, but a critical step for every COO aiming to lead?
- Can a COO ever match a founder's passion, or is their power found in something entirely different?
- What does it really take for a COO to transition into the CEO seat—and what role does backfilling play in that journey?
References
- https://www.linkedin.com/in/ericdcollinsba/?originalSubdomain=uk
- www.impactxcapital.com
Biography
Eric Collins is a serial entrepreneur, investor, and host of Channel 4's The Money Maker. He’s held leadership roles at AOL, TimeWarner, SwiftKey/Microsoft, and Touch Surgery/Medtronic.
Appointed by President Obama to the Small Business Administration’s Council on Underserved Communities, Eric now serves on the boards of Cirata, UnLtd, Crux, and Autograph ABP. A sought-after speaker and Audi brand ambassador, he’s consistently featured on The Powerlist of influential Black Britons.
His award-winning book, We Don’t Need Permission (Penguin), advocates for investing in Black and underrepresented entrepreneurs as a powerful driver of social change.
To learn more about Beth and Brandon or to find out about sponsorship opportunities click here.
Summary
23:55 The unique role that the CEO plays in a scaling organisation
28:05 The value of the COO next to the CFO
30:58 Progressing as a COO
33:11 CEO and COO Succession Planning
33:51 The Passion of Founders vs. COOs
39:56 Planning for Success as a COO
43:16 Setting the Agenda in Board Meetings
This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis:
Podcorn - https://podcorn.com/privacy
Transcript
Hello everyone, and welcome to
Speaker:another episode of The Operations
Speaker:Room, a podcast for crows.
Speaker:I am Brandon Bensinger, joined by my
Speaker:lovely and tired co-host Bethany
Speaker:Ayres. How are things going,
Speaker:Bethany?
Speaker:I've had better weeks, to be fair.
Speaker:If I'm reflecting on this time last
Speaker:year versus this year,
Speaker:nobody has died.
Speaker:Bonus.
Speaker:So we are ahead of the death game
Speaker:right now.
Speaker:We are. But if we are like life
Speaker:stress game, definitely
Speaker:not ahead.
Speaker:I am definitely in that.
Speaker:Like remind me why I decided
Speaker:it'd be fun to go back to work mode.
Speaker:And eventually catches up to you,
Speaker:doesn't it? At some point.
Speaker:It really does.
Speaker:I woke up this morning to a flurry
Speaker:of emails that came in the night,
Speaker:and they're not even hard, you know,
Speaker:and it's just emails.
Speaker:It just happens.
Speaker:But at that moment
Speaker:of overwhelm, I was like.
Speaker:Nope, there's nothing worse.
Speaker:I'm looking at your inbox explode.
Speaker:And then you go to slack and there's
Speaker:just like a shit show of stuff going
Speaker:on there as well.
Speaker:We have a lot overwhelming.
Speaker:It is like, I'm really wishing we
Speaker:had Chris Hatfield as our guest
Speaker:today and that is like ten
Speaker:minutes. He could just talk me down.
Speaker:Give me a couple tools.
Speaker:Give me a brain dump tool or
Speaker:whatever we did last time.
Speaker:Yeah, I mean, I was seriously
Speaker:considering the brain dump tool, but
Speaker:I just haven't had time to do it
Speaker:yet.
Speaker:Wow.
Speaker:That's serious.
Speaker:You are maxed out if you can't even
Speaker:do the brain dump tool.
Speaker:Yeah, I was like a decision between
Speaker:brushing my teeth of the brain dump
Speaker:tool. And I also for brushing my
Speaker:teeth.
Speaker:And then that's literal hygiene,
Speaker:as Eric Collins talks about in our
Speaker:episode.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So, I did like,
Speaker:just as a, not a funny story, but
Speaker:just as a moment last night, I
Speaker:was coming down on the train
Speaker:from Manchester, and it
Speaker:wasn't a very full train.
Speaker:It was like 615 at night.
Speaker:So really past rush hour
Speaker:I had the entire table to
Speaker:myself. I was relaxing, it
Speaker:was great. And just before the train
Speaker:left, this just
Speaker:an asshole of a guy sat across
Speaker:from me and
Speaker:he's some sales guy.
Speaker:Sales leader.
Speaker:Super cool and
Speaker:ate his crisps.
Speaker:Ate his tuna sandwich.
Speaker:I shouting on his phone about
Speaker:like this shit employee
Speaker:and that shit person.
Speaker:And that person's not worth saving
Speaker:that they've resigned.
Speaker:And on and on and on
Speaker:with the crisps and the tuna
Speaker:sandwich and the talk it with an
Speaker:open mouth and the lip smacking.
Speaker:It's just like I can't.
Speaker:It's just such an unpleasant
Speaker:experience.
Speaker:And so I put on my noise canceling
Speaker:headphones. And I'm not actually a
Speaker:big music person, but I had put some
Speaker:music on to drown him out because
Speaker:the noise canceling on its own
Speaker:wasn't sufficient.
Speaker:He made some visual canceling
Speaker:software as well to exit him
Speaker:from your site.
Speaker:Exactly, because I was trying to be
Speaker:on my phone, but I was holding my
Speaker:phone up so that I didn't bend my
Speaker:neck to get, like, neck problems,
Speaker:you know, in later life.
Speaker:But then I could see him through my
Speaker:phone, so I just yeah, I just had to
Speaker:close my eyes and wait for it to
Speaker:finish and then luckily sometime
Speaker:in, I don't know, Stockport or
Speaker:something. He lost reception and
Speaker:finally gave up.
Speaker:But the first 20 minutes
Speaker:of the train journey was
Speaker:horrific.
Speaker:I obviously should not hate people
Speaker:and there is no reason to hate this
Speaker:mad.
Speaker:Sometimes you just want to avoid
Speaker:public transport.
Speaker:For these reasons. I think you know
Speaker:trains and busses because you get
Speaker:random people doing random shit and
Speaker:it just drives you insane.
Speaker:And he actually his behavior
Speaker:cleared out all of the surrounding
Speaker:seats from us.
Speaker:And we started with people sitting,
Speaker:you know, everywhere.
Speaker:And by the end of his journey, like
Speaker:by the end of Stockport, it was just
Speaker:me and him, the rest of the
Speaker:carriages full on the back.
Speaker:He stuck on through just like an
Speaker:operator. CAA went to the
Speaker:very end.
Speaker:I had the only reserved seat in
Speaker:the carriage that was my seat I had
Speaker:planned.
Speaker:Nice you. We're not going to give up
Speaker:here. You're much, much deserved
Speaker:and reserved seat.
Speaker:Exactly. So anyhow, that's kind of
Speaker:maybe an allegory for how my life is
Speaker:right now. Maybe I need to let go of
Speaker:things a little bit, rather than dig
Speaker:my heels in and and hate the rest of
Speaker:the world.
Speaker:I did a small talk last night,
Speaker:so I was relating this story of
Speaker:back in 2009, I was
Speaker:part of this company called Nuance
Speaker:Communications, and, I've
Speaker:been promoted five times
Speaker:in five years, if you can imagine,
Speaker:at this point. So I was the hot shot
Speaker:up and comer, as it were, running
Speaker:this business unit as a senior
Speaker:director, 200 odd people,
Speaker:as you do in these large
Speaker:organizations.
Speaker:And I was presenting my third
Speaker:CBR McAuley Business Review.
Speaker:And I got up there to, you know,
Speaker:represent the state of the business
Speaker:unit and the CEO
Speaker:and the executive was there to kind
Speaker:of grill me on performance in this,
Speaker:that and the other.
Speaker:And for these calls, you would have
Speaker:the entire business unit on the
Speaker:call. So there is like literally 200
Speaker:individuals listening.
Speaker:And so I was doing this,
Speaker:and there was some other speakers as
Speaker:well, finance and so on.
Speaker:That sounds bizarre.
Speaker:Like a live public QBR.
Speaker:Yes. Yeah.
Speaker:I mean, this is the way
Speaker:nuance for another company, very
Speaker:autocratic, very top down.
Speaker:And the CEO is quite intimidating.
Speaker:And on this particular
Speaker:QBR, he decided to
Speaker:make an example of me for whatever
Speaker:reason, I don't. To this day, I
Speaker:still don't quite understand.
Speaker:So he basically personally attacked
Speaker:me. I've kind of openly question
Speaker:like, why?
Speaker:Why? You know, why are you leading
Speaker:this? Why is this happening?
Speaker:You know, all sorts of things.
Speaker:And I left at that call
Speaker:pretty humiliated.
Speaker:I think it's easily my top
Speaker:three humiliations of all time
Speaker:in a business context,
Speaker:especially with how many people
Speaker:listening. It's all your peers and
Speaker:your entire team, right?
Speaker:I went home that night, and as you
Speaker:do, you look at yourself
Speaker:in the mirror and you start asking
Speaker:yourself a bunch of existential
Speaker:questions, right?
Speaker:One of which was, you know,
Speaker:is this, how businesses operate
Speaker:and is this how successful
Speaker:businesses should operate?
Speaker:And I kind of ruminated on these
Speaker:questions for, for a few
Speaker:months and then eventually decided
Speaker:to pack it in and quit.
Speaker:On seeing this at the height the
Speaker:recession in 2009.
Speaker:So there was no jobs to be had
Speaker:anytime soon.
Speaker:So I ended up walking the streets of
Speaker:London.
Speaker:You know, going from one coffee shop
Speaker:to the next is this kind of sad,
Speaker:sad, humiliated young
Speaker:man? Not really sure.
Speaker:What's the next step was going to
Speaker:be? Fast forward two years.
Speaker:I joined a company called SwiftKey,
Speaker:and I was there for five years, and
Speaker:it was just a revelation that you
Speaker:can build, grow, and scale a
Speaker:business in a totally different way.
Speaker:That truly takes the concepts
Speaker:of empowerment for individuals and
Speaker:teams, autonomy for individuals
Speaker:and teams.
Speaker:You know the right context around
Speaker:that, the right guardrails, and
Speaker:you can get spectacular results
Speaker:based on that whereby
Speaker:the company succeeds, individuals
Speaker:succeed, the team succeed, and
Speaker:it feels good, and it feels like
Speaker:you're on some kind of journey
Speaker:together that actually matters, and
Speaker:you're invested in what's happening
Speaker:as opposed to what I experienced in
Speaker:nuance, which was much more this
Speaker:kind of autocratic kind
Speaker:of mean culture, if you want to call
Speaker:it that.
Speaker:It was a company that was acquired
Speaker:by nuance, right?
Speaker:Rather than you starting a new ones?
Speaker:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker:So I'd worked for a scale up in
Speaker:Calgary, Canada, and nuance
Speaker:bought that company.
Speaker:And actually, this kind of dovetails
Speaker:directly into our episode with Eric,
Speaker:actually, because he was the one.
Speaker:He was the one from the nuance side
Speaker:to make the acquisition happen,
Speaker:flying into Calgary.
Speaker:And as I describe in our chat with
Speaker:Eric, kind of like laying off the
Speaker:entire company.
Speaker:And there was three of us left.
Speaker:And at that point I got sucked into
Speaker:the vortex of this vicious,
Speaker:mean spirited company.
Speaker:It's an Israeli company, isn't it?
Speaker:Nuance?
Speaker:I don't think it was, really, but
Speaker:I don't even know what they were,
Speaker:actually. But they were a machine
Speaker:because their business model was to
Speaker:take patterns and litigate scale
Speaker:ups into submission and then buy
Speaker:them. So every voice recognition
Speaker:pattern, any kind of input
Speaker:technology, patent and nuance owned
Speaker:at some point.
Speaker:And of course, they powered Siri and
Speaker:so on.
Speaker:So gargantuan company bought
Speaker:by Microsoft ultimately a couple of
Speaker:years back. So all those nuance
Speaker:individuals, and that culture got
Speaker:subsumed into Microsoft.
Speaker:So I can imagine, you know, a real
Speaker:clash of culture, I suspect,
Speaker:between what nuance had built
Speaker:in and the way Microsoft runs their
Speaker:company.
Speaker:So we have a phenomenal topic
Speaker:today, which is, is the SEO
Speaker:the single source of truth?
Speaker:And we have an amazing guest for
Speaker:this. He is Eric Collins.
Speaker:He is the CEO at impact
Speaker:X capital, which is a venture
Speaker:capital company, and the author
Speaker:of a book called We Don't Need
Speaker:Permission and formerly
Speaker:host of the channel four
Speaker:TV series The Moneymaker.
Speaker:So he is a all star on all
Speaker:fronts.
Speaker:So before we get to our chat with
Speaker:Eric, just wanted to walk through a
Speaker:couple of his thoughts and see
Speaker:what we think more specifically.
Speaker:So the first thing that he had
Speaker:spoken about was this idea
Speaker:of the CEO driving the agenda
Speaker:for the board meeting and
Speaker:using the chair as a bit of a proxy
Speaker:to make that happen.
Speaker:And I was curious what you make of
Speaker:this, because I've had a couple of
Speaker:experiences around this that I'll
Speaker:share in a second. But what do you
Speaker:think?
Speaker:I think it sounds good, but
Speaker:the reality of a lot of
Speaker:conversations that we've had, both
Speaker:here and with just other CEOs
Speaker:generally, is CEOs
Speaker:don't even necessarily
Speaker:always go to the board meetings or
Speaker:understand their place in the board
Speaker:meetings, or feel like they have
Speaker:a place at the table.
Speaker:And therefore, going from
Speaker:the reality of where I think a lot
Speaker:of c o O's are
Speaker:to. And by the way, you're setting
Speaker:the agenda, it's a big step.
Speaker:I think it's a good aspirational
Speaker:step. And I think it turns you into
Speaker:like the true partner
Speaker:of the CEO.
Speaker:And it might be a nice topic
Speaker:to cover in the next one, too.
Speaker:When you're having with your CEO, if
Speaker:you're not already doing this and
Speaker:saying, I've heard
Speaker:that I should be running the agenda,
Speaker:I would like to run the agenda.
Speaker:How do we get there?
Speaker:Rather than the CEO being the one
Speaker:who's setting it?
Speaker:I guess this gets to the nature of
Speaker:the conversation, which is what is
Speaker:the actual role the CEO in these
Speaker:companies and what kind of CEO are
Speaker:you? Because the fact of the matter
Speaker:is, I think in the last two
Speaker:companies I worked and, you know, I
Speaker:was a de facto piece of that board,
Speaker:and I played a key role on those
Speaker:board meetings, and I felt that
Speaker:I should as well.
Speaker:And as part of that experience, I
Speaker:think what was very obvious to me
Speaker:was there were certain shares
Speaker:that directly reflect Eric's
Speaker:experience that he was relaying,
Speaker:which is, you know, these folks
Speaker:would, you know, sworn into these
Speaker:meetings, sworn out of these
Speaker:meetings. You would rarely see them.
Speaker:They didn't really understand what
Speaker:we're trying to accomplish.
Speaker:And they did this kind of
Speaker:peripheral, you know, circling
Speaker:the wagons of the other board
Speaker:members, the CEO and so on.
Speaker:But, you know, ultimately they were
Speaker:not very invested, I would say, in
Speaker:terms of making that board meeting
Speaker:useful and important and valuable
Speaker:for all of us.
Speaker:If I had my way with one particular
Speaker:chairman in mind, I would have got
Speaker:rid of him. He made no sense,
Speaker:basically, that he was useless
Speaker:effectively.
Speaker:So, you know, I have a particular
Speaker:opinion, I guess, in terms of,
Speaker:I think, the value of the CEO,
Speaker:that board meeting part of that
Speaker:value is to work directly with the
Speaker:chair. Have a great relationship,
Speaker:and for the two of those individuals
Speaker:to work together to drive
Speaker:and craft the right kind of board
Speaker:meetings to ensure that they're
Speaker:successful and you get what you want
Speaker:out of them.
Speaker:I think it depends on where
Speaker:you are in your investment cycle.
Speaker:As to how much is the CEO
Speaker:versus the CEO crafting that
Speaker:agenda?
Speaker:Because I still see a lot of
Speaker:investor relations sitting with the
Speaker:CEO via the CEO.
Speaker:Ultimate job is to make sure you
Speaker:don't run out of money, and
Speaker:therefore how
Speaker:you are managing
Speaker:your investors and board meetings
Speaker:for VC backed businesses is a key
Speaker:moment of how you manage your
Speaker:investors. The CEO slash
Speaker:CEO need to be very well aligned
Speaker:on what that messages, and I
Speaker:think it would probably be if you're
Speaker:truly an advisor or a secondary
Speaker:command, you would
Speaker:be working together to figure out
Speaker:agendas that get the point
Speaker:across that you want.
Speaker:Particularly if you're going for
Speaker:like a bridging round, a new round.
Speaker:Don't have good news to share?
Speaker:How are you going to be
Speaker:presenting that in a controlled
Speaker:manner that retains trust in the
Speaker:board?
Speaker:You know, I fully expect the CEO
Speaker:to be having 1 to 1 conversations
Speaker:with board members of the course of
Speaker:that quarter, doing that activity
Speaker:and making sure those relationships
Speaker:are strong.
Speaker:And for myself, I always
Speaker:read myself as not being my role,
Speaker:not my remit, so to speak.
Speaker:Right. It's his relationships, his
Speaker:investors, in that sense.
Speaker:My job was to craft a
Speaker:kind of like, as the CEO does in
Speaker:leadership meetings, right?
Speaker:My job is to craft and make sure we
Speaker:had good meetings.
Speaker:So when it came to good meetings,
Speaker:you know, the agenda is a core part
Speaker:of what constitutes a good meeting
Speaker:and being able to run those meetings
Speaker:effectively. So I think maybe in
Speaker:that sense it's no different, is it
Speaker:is kind of like the CEO holds the
Speaker:relationships, but when it comes to
Speaker:that board meeting, use my skills
Speaker:that I have to make sure we get good
Speaker:board meetings to happen.
Speaker:So the other thing Eric had spoken
Speaker:about was this question of what
Speaker:are you hiring for?
Speaker:Being the CEO.
Speaker:So are sometimes CEOs delude
Speaker:themselves in the sense of I
Speaker:want a CEO.
Speaker:But in fact, what they actually want
Speaker:is a chief of staff or I want
Speaker:to CEO, but in fact, I actually want
Speaker:a kind of a CFO or
Speaker:I want a CRO.
Speaker:His hypothesis was that
Speaker:you were clearly hiring.
Speaker:You're second in command.
Speaker:You are hiring your successor.
Speaker:You're hiring your in lieu person
Speaker:that can represent the business
Speaker:internally and externally.
Speaker:If for some reason you were hit by a
Speaker:bus, essentially, and that's the
Speaker:role of a CEO in this case, what
Speaker:do you make of that?
Speaker:I'd like that. But I also like the
Speaker:next bit that he talked about of the
Speaker:difference between a CFO and a CIO.
Speaker:And the CFO is forward
Speaker:looking, and the CFO
Speaker:is backward looking.
Speaker:And I really like that division,
Speaker:because I do also think it's the way
Speaker:that our brains work.
Speaker:So as a CIO, we can understand
Speaker:the numbers and
Speaker:the model and what needs
Speaker:to be delivered.
Speaker:But then we take that information to
Speaker:plan forward, and then
Speaker:how do we align everybody to deliver
Speaker:that forward plan?
Speaker:And I think that for me,
Speaker:I just call it operational strategy.
Speaker:It's not like big, big picture
Speaker:strategy. And it's not day to
Speaker:day operations.
Speaker:It's that bridge in between the two.
Speaker:And so how do we connect the
Speaker:massively visionary, forward
Speaker:thinking CEO
Speaker:to reality.
Speaker:And then how do we translate that
Speaker:reality to something that people
Speaker:could do day to day?
Speaker:The CFO holds that financial
Speaker:plan, as it were.
Speaker:And what you're holding is the
Speaker:operational plan or the how plan as
Speaker:to how everything's going to happen
Speaker:in the business.
Speaker:And I do think in the from a
Speaker:forecasting standpoint, I don't
Speaker:think it's exactly correct, because
Speaker:at the end of the day, the CFO is
Speaker:forecasting the future, right?
Speaker:It's in the model.
Speaker:But the question of how that
Speaker:forecast comes to be
Speaker:and making sure that it actually
Speaker:represents the reality of the
Speaker:business, not just kind of
Speaker:like from a number of perspective,
Speaker:but actually connected the dots
Speaker:between the different functions and
Speaker:groups and what's happening with the
Speaker:market and the customers and so on.
Speaker:All the assumptions that go into
Speaker:that model from a forecasting point
Speaker:of view. You know, I think the CEO
Speaker:is much better place to do that than
Speaker:the CFO in this case.
Speaker:And and this is why that tandem
Speaker:between the two of them can work
Speaker:quite well, to be honest, in terms
Speaker:of bringing together the lenses of
Speaker:the operational plan combined with
Speaker:the financial plan and then
Speaker:ultimately to a point, what needs to
Speaker:happen in the future is the how,
Speaker:which is how are we going to do
Speaker:that? And that sits with the CFO.
Speaker:So a related question on the
Speaker:successor front, do you think this
Speaker:also applies to your job in your
Speaker:role in terms of hiring
Speaker:a head of operations
Speaker:or someone that reports into
Speaker:that you hire and ultimately is your
Speaker:successor?
Speaker:It's interesting. Today's preamble
Speaker:just ties to, like so many other
Speaker:podcasts that we've done.
Speaker:So this ties to our conversation
Speaker:with Cassie on leadership
Speaker:skills and
Speaker:how to not get fired from your exact
Speaker:job. And it's one of the skills
Speaker:that you need to learn early on is
Speaker:you have to always have a
Speaker:successor, otherwise you can't get
Speaker:promoted.
Speaker:So even as
Speaker:a manager of a team of six.
Speaker:You better figure out who is
Speaker:your successor so that
Speaker:that person can take your job and
Speaker:you can take your boss's job, and
Speaker:you really want to be your boss's
Speaker:successor. And you always need to be
Speaker:thinking that way.
Speaker:And that's both
Speaker:functionally figuring it out, but
Speaker:also more importantly, emotionally
Speaker:figuring it out.
Speaker:Because there's definitely a moment
Speaker:of if that person could do my job,
Speaker:then they can get rid of me.
Speaker:And you need to switch your mindset
Speaker:from, if that person could do my
Speaker:job, they could get rid of me too.
Speaker:They could do my job.
Speaker:That means I could do the next job,
Speaker:because a lot of people get stuck
Speaker:not being able to be promoted
Speaker:because they're indispensable in
Speaker:their current role.
Speaker:So this is a question to you,
Speaker:because at the end of the day,
Speaker:your natural succession is to
Speaker:the CEO role.
Speaker:So if that role is
Speaker:not available and will never be
Speaker:available, does that still apply?
Speaker:I guess it depends on your own
Speaker:ambitions.
Speaker:That brings us back to a different
Speaker:conversation. That brings us back to
Speaker:the Cameron Herald.
Speaker:Discussion on
Speaker:our CEOs, CEOs
Speaker:and waiting, or a unique set of
Speaker:skills that
Speaker:you can progress your career by
Speaker:being a CEO at
Speaker:increasingly large companies, rather
Speaker:than the next step being CEO.
Speaker:So I think that's another thing is
Speaker:to look at yourself.
Speaker:What are your ambitions and what are
Speaker:your skills?
Speaker:Are you a CEO and waiting, or are
Speaker:you a CEO for a massive organization
Speaker:as your next step?
Speaker:No, that's that's a good response, I
Speaker:think. I do think this I in
Speaker:my last two companies that I worked
Speaker:for, I hired a head of operations
Speaker:twice over.
Speaker:And both of those individuals
Speaker:are super, super, super talented.
Speaker:And they were good
Speaker:at things that I was less good
Speaker:at, I would say. And for the most
Speaker:part, they were coming from change,
Speaker:transformation, backgrounds
Speaker:that change transformation,
Speaker:background and person.
Speaker:I found invaluable to like, execute
Speaker:programs that we needed to get done
Speaker:where my mind was off on two
Speaker:more macro issues for the company.
Speaker:From a problem solving perspective,
Speaker:I needed her on the ground
Speaker:to kind of like do some of the
Speaker:blocking and tackling for me at that
Speaker:stage.
Speaker:So the other thing that he'd spoken
Speaker:about was being very intentional.
Speaker:Before you join your next
Speaker:organization. Intentional in the
Speaker:sense of making sure that you get
Speaker:some early wins on the board to give
Speaker:others around you the confidence
Speaker:in you, to give you more space,
Speaker:to do what you have to do for the
Speaker:business. Number two, building
Speaker:relationships not just in the
Speaker:standard sense, but also making sure
Speaker:that you're rounding out yourself in
Speaker:terms of your back channel, that
Speaker:people that are more boots on the
Speaker:ground, so to speak.
Speaker:And this third element of just
Speaker:fundamentally as you're entering the
Speaker:company, what do you want to get out
Speaker:of it outcome wise, and making
Speaker:sure that's in the back of your head
Speaker:at all times to ensure that you're
Speaker:focused on the right things from a
Speaker:priority perspective.
Speaker:So that intentionality in those
Speaker:three elements.
Speaker:What do you make of that?
Speaker:I think that is one of those moments
Speaker:of it is what's made Eric
Speaker:successful, and therefore he thinks
Speaker:it will make everybody successful.
Speaker:Where we can go back to luck and
Speaker:timing.
Speaker:So I have done none of
Speaker:those things ever.
Speaker:Like, I am much more
Speaker:on the hunt for fun
Speaker:and joy and what
Speaker:feels right.
Speaker:And then going into an organization,
Speaker:not knowing what needs to get done,
Speaker:and not having a sense
Speaker:of this is my plan
Speaker:before I go in.
Speaker:And very much being open to
Speaker:ideas, observing,
Speaker:formulating my hypotheses
Speaker:and then creating an action plan
Speaker:after that.
Speaker:But one of the first things that I
Speaker:do, and I ask every single new
Speaker:hire when they join the
Speaker:company to do, is to
Speaker:write on the very first piece of
Speaker:paper in their notebook.
Speaker:All of the
Speaker:obvious things that should change
Speaker:that. You're just like, shocked that
Speaker:the business is doing.
Speaker:In the first like 30 days or
Speaker:something, or.
Speaker:Probably even in the first week,
Speaker:just all of your initial
Speaker:observations of like, oh my
Speaker:God, there's no expense policy.
Speaker:Oh my God, why do
Speaker:we have 70 people meeting together
Speaker:for 15 minutes every day?
Speaker:Oh my God, why does
Speaker:Salesforce not have
Speaker:a lead object like just you know,
Speaker:those? How can that be moments.
Speaker:And write it down on your very first
Speaker:page because
Speaker:you'll get some of that done.
Speaker:But very quickly you get sucked into
Speaker:the organization and you become
Speaker:blind to the obvious.
Speaker:And if you can keep flipping back to
Speaker:that first page and remind yourself
Speaker:that these are things that
Speaker:need to change and are
Speaker:still obvious, it makes
Speaker:a huge difference. So I do that, and
Speaker:I ask every new new
Speaker:hire to do that.
Speaker:And then for like the first
Speaker:six months of having chats with that
Speaker:new hire, we flip back to that
Speaker:page and see
Speaker:what still needs to happen.
Speaker:And actually, maybe there is a
Speaker:reason why something that was an oh
Speaker:my God moment is fine.
Speaker:I think that's fantastic.
Speaker:That makes tremendous sense because
Speaker:I think you're exactly right.
Speaker:Especially people with like, any
Speaker:level of experience from other
Speaker:companies that have seen other
Speaker:things when they joined the company.
Speaker:This should be like standard
Speaker:practice, which is there is an
Speaker:expectation at the end of the week
Speaker:that you're going to create an OMG
Speaker:list, something like that, and boom,
Speaker:you're going to list out those
Speaker:observations that didn't make sense
Speaker:to you.
Speaker:And so that's kind of counter to
Speaker:Eric's is like, I have my plan
Speaker:before I start.
Speaker:Like I very much have a plan after I
Speaker:start.
Speaker:And then what I think I'm
Speaker:going to get out of it.
Speaker:This is hard for me because I can
Speaker:definitely have like my fantasy I
Speaker:like this is going to be the job
Speaker:that does this and it's going to
Speaker:enable that skill.
Speaker:And this is amazing.
Speaker:But I try not to hold on to my
Speaker:fantasies because the world
Speaker:unfolds in lots of ways, and I don't
Speaker:want to be massively disappointed if
Speaker:the fantasy doesn't turn into
Speaker:reality.
Speaker:So maybe I like look at it
Speaker:loosely as this makes
Speaker:sense for my career and as a piece
Speaker:of the puzzle, but
Speaker:also okay if it doesn't turn
Speaker:out that way. But then at a certain
Speaker:point it's like, okay,
Speaker:I need to let go of this fantasy
Speaker:and this job because it's not
Speaker:serving me or
Speaker:it's not what I imagined, but it's
Speaker:really good.
Speaker:But I've never had.
Speaker:It's exactly how I've imagined.
Speaker:That doesn't happen.
Speaker:That is true. Do you think there's
Speaker:like, a mix of both?
Speaker:Like, I feel like I'm within myself.
Speaker:I'm like, okay, so part of it for
Speaker:sure is walk in.
Speaker:And to your point, observing
Speaker:and listening very deeply across
Speaker:everyone in terms of why,
Speaker:why are they doing what they're
Speaker:doing? What does it look like, why
Speaker:does it look like it does, and so
Speaker:on. So there's that part of the on
Speaker:the ground information across the
Speaker:entire company.
Speaker:The second part is with
Speaker:our level of experience.
Speaker:Walk into the company with all those
Speaker:OMG moments of like, okay, what
Speaker:is going on here? Why are they doing
Speaker:this? Why are they doing that?
Speaker:And then there's a third part of
Speaker:information, which is the CEO
Speaker:has expectations of you from the get
Speaker:go in terms of what they want very
Speaker:specifically, typically, and
Speaker:being able to think through
Speaker:those three parts of information
Speaker:and ultimately at some stage
Speaker:being able to share your
Speaker:observations back and draw a
Speaker:hypothesis back to the leadership
Speaker:team and to the CEO saying, look,
Speaker:based on what I've heard from you
Speaker:and based on what I've heard from
Speaker:the entire organization and based on
Speaker:my background and experience, you
Speaker:know, here's a set of hypotheses
Speaker:that I want to push forward in terms
Speaker:of what I think needs to get done
Speaker:over the next 12, 18 months of the
Speaker:parties that I think make the most
Speaker:sense.
Speaker:What do you think of that?
Speaker:I agree, and like my first time
Speaker:joining Peac as Chro,
Speaker:I attended my first board meeting in
Speaker:either week one or week two and
Speaker:presented my plan for
Speaker:the next year.
Speaker:Wow. Within two weeks.
Speaker:That's amazing.
Speaker:Possibly one week.
Speaker:It was really early on.
Speaker:Yeah. But there were so many
Speaker:OMG moments that like,
Speaker:it was very clear what had to get
Speaker:done. And then I did those
Speaker:things and it helped.
Speaker:But this might also just be the fact
Speaker:that that we've talked about in the
Speaker:past that my brain works very
Speaker:quickly.
Speaker:And so, yeah, just
Speaker:my superpower of being able to see
Speaker:it. So maybe that's why I'm also
Speaker:relaxed doing it when once I'm in
Speaker:rather than before.
Speaker:All right, so why don't we park it
Speaker:here and let's get on to our
Speaker:conversation with Mr. Eric Collins.
Speaker:What is the value of a CEO and a
Speaker:skill a company from your
Speaker:perspective? As a as a VC.
Speaker:I believe that there
Speaker:is a unique role
Speaker:that the CEO plays in
Speaker:a scaling organization, particularly
Speaker:one which is venture backed,
Speaker:and where a venture capitalist has
Speaker:gone through the process of
Speaker:diligence thing and choosing
Speaker:that organization among many to
Speaker:put money into and then will
Speaker:be on a tenure journey
Speaker:together.
Speaker:The question of who is going to be
Speaker:on the journey and who is going to
Speaker:be the single source of truth
Speaker:going forward.
Speaker:You know, there's a data room which
Speaker:starts things out, and that
Speaker:is sort of the source of truth.
Speaker:That's sort of a Bible that everyone
Speaker:uses in order to say sort of what's
Speaker:happened in the past, and what's
Speaker:your expectation about what's going
Speaker:to happen in the future.
Speaker:Now we're into the future, that
Speaker:future that have been predicted.
Speaker:And I need to know as a venture
Speaker:capitalist, what is going on
Speaker:often? CEOs and
Speaker:founders are individuals
Speaker:who spend a lot of time spinning and
Speaker:in an interesting and very
Speaker:productive narrative.
Speaker:And its CEOs who tell
Speaker:me exactly what's happening along
Speaker:with the CFO.
Speaker:So that was my first question,
Speaker:actually. Or as soon as you're
Speaker:talking about your relationship with
Speaker:the CEO and the CFO being
Speaker:the single source of truth.
Speaker:I was just like, well, what's the
Speaker:cfo's job then?
Speaker:Like, I always think the CFO is the
Speaker:single source of truth.
Speaker:And you all have probably
Speaker:seen in terms of your
Speaker:work.
Speaker:And both of you as CEOs
Speaker:is that there are a variety of CEOs,
Speaker:right? There's some that are heavily
Speaker:skewed toward the finance side.
Speaker:There's some that are skewed toward
Speaker:the sales side.
Speaker:There's some that are skewed toward
Speaker:the legal side and some that are
Speaker:able to do the entire the full
Speaker:breadth of activities that are
Speaker:associated with the CFO, at least
Speaker:a well-functioning CFO, on whom
Speaker:you can build an organization that's
Speaker:going to scale.
Speaker:So I would say that I
Speaker:do love the CFO
Speaker:in terms of the individual who is
Speaker:going to be able to report the
Speaker:data.
Speaker:And in a fast growth organization,
Speaker:that data is coming in from all
Speaker:sides, is coming often from
Speaker:different territories.
Speaker:We're often consolidating balance
Speaker:sheets. And so I think of them as
Speaker:certainly having that kind of a
Speaker:view. And that view is
Speaker:one that is backward looking.
Speaker:A little bit of forecast oriented
Speaker:but backward looking at sort of said
Speaker:what just happened.
Speaker:It is the CFO who then has
Speaker:responsibility with that data
Speaker:to say to me, here are the
Speaker:ways in which, based
Speaker:on where we are now and the future,
Speaker:that we anticipate that we plan
Speaker:to build on what we have,
Speaker:correct what went wrong,
Speaker:try and innovate our way to
Speaker:something new, and the way that we
Speaker:are sure that that can happen is
Speaker:because of these next things.
Speaker:And this is the plan.
Speaker:So I think the CFO
Speaker:is taking care of almost the
Speaker:financial plan.
Speaker:And I think of the CEO is taking
Speaker:care of the operational plan,
Speaker:and one is hygiene
Speaker:and the other one is
Speaker:growth for me.
Speaker:And so that's what I want to hear.
Speaker:But I don't want to spend so much
Speaker:that that's a CEO role.
Speaker:And of course these are all stereotypes.
Speaker:And there's a wide range that goes
Speaker:along with this.
Speaker:But what I really love is I really
Speaker:love an operating that goes
Speaker:down to the idea
Speaker:of, how are we going to actually
Speaker:make all of this magic happen
Speaker:with the ingredients we have?
Speaker:What do we put in the cauldron?
Speaker:Mix up the cauldron, and it actually
Speaker:is going to deliver in a reasonable
Speaker:way in a reasonable amount of time.
Speaker:And I actually think that that's a
Speaker:much more than what I have seen in
Speaker:terms of my CFOs who
Speaker:are extremely compliance,
Speaker:regulatory, reporting oriented,
Speaker:and CEOs utilize that
Speaker:in leveraging, but they do something
Speaker:a little bit different.
Speaker:I find that really helpful because
Speaker:I'm always struggling.
Speaker:I'm an accidental CFO.
Speaker:I still don't always know what it
Speaker:is.
Speaker:And every single CEO that you meet
Speaker:is a little bit different.
Speaker:And then I think that we do have
Speaker:some identity crises.
Speaker:And so often I think our CFO
Speaker:is a real job.
Speaker:A CEO maybe isn't.
Speaker:So what's my value when we
Speaker:get bigger and a CFO exists?
Speaker:And so I really like your answer
Speaker:because I think then I can go around
Speaker:and say, no, what I am is I
Speaker:focus on growth.
Speaker:You look at the rearview mirror and
Speaker:you make sure we have enough money.
Speaker:But then my plan is to figure out
Speaker:how to most effectively land that
Speaker:money and keep the CEO
Speaker:from, I was going to say, go into
Speaker:jail, but maybe I shouldn't say
Speaker:that, but it keeps the CEO
Speaker:on the right side of reality.
Speaker:One of the things that I would say
Speaker:about the CFO role is,
Speaker:I think a podcast like this is
Speaker:very important, not for necessarily
Speaker:just the CFO, but also
Speaker:the CEO, and then the founders
Speaker:and the board of organizations
Speaker:to try and delineate when
Speaker:and what is necessary in
Speaker:their stage of growth and scaling.
Speaker:Because I often believe that
Speaker:probably what you fat one hypothesis
Speaker:not I often believe, but one
Speaker:hypothesis is that in fact,
Speaker:what we're finding is these
Speaker:descriptions that are given to you
Speaker:when you first come in.
Speaker:People think, I want to see,
Speaker:oh, because, you know, other
Speaker:organizations have a SEO.
Speaker:But what I really want is a chief of
Speaker:staff. I want a SEO,
Speaker:but really, I want a CFO.
Speaker:I want SEO, but really, I want
Speaker:someone who's going to be a CRO.
Speaker:And so the question of what is the
Speaker:expectation?
Speaker:And quite frankly, I often think
Speaker:of my SEO as a successor to
Speaker:me. It's either the CFO, the CFO
Speaker:or someone else and that person
Speaker:being able to be my surrogate.
Speaker:If I'm a founder and a CEO.
Speaker:I want that person to have that
Speaker:kind of skill. So they need not
Speaker:enter being able to do all those
Speaker:sorts of things, but they need to
Speaker:actually be able to eventually own
Speaker:most of that.
Speaker:And I think that that is when you
Speaker:get real magic
Speaker:and that you get not just magic, but
Speaker:you also get the science.
Speaker:So the Ministry of Science, Ministry
Speaker:of Magic, it's both of those two
Speaker:ministries if we borrow from Harry
Speaker:Potter. And then I'd like to see
Speaker:more and more organizations
Speaker:really contend and really wrestle
Speaker:with, we think we should hire
Speaker:someone, because our CEO
Speaker:is not necessarily growing
Speaker:in lockstep with what the future
Speaker:needs of the organization or will
Speaker:bring in a seasoned operator.
Speaker:And what do we really want that
Speaker:seasoned operator to do today?
Speaker:But do we want to grow that seasoned
Speaker:operator into the individual who is
Speaker:going to be able to take us once we
Speaker:have gotten past the capabilities of
Speaker:some founder group to the next
Speaker:level? That's the kind of
Speaker:conversation that I love to
Speaker:hear. And I like to think through
Speaker:with our founders
Speaker:and CEOs who are saying that
Speaker:we want to expand our
Speaker:mature bench.
Speaker:And that's often when you're talking
Speaker:about CEOs.
Speaker:So I think that there are a lot of
Speaker:skills a CEO has that
Speaker:can be transferable into a CEO
Speaker:or keeping a business
Speaker:organized, connected
Speaker:on message, moving in the right
Speaker:direction.
Speaker:But there's something special about
Speaker:a founder, CEO and that vision
Speaker:and that belief and the ability
Speaker:to run through walls
Speaker:and no matter what anybody tells
Speaker:them, they know they're right.
Speaker:Often you see that they'll leave and
Speaker:you have a successful replacement,
Speaker:but then you also have those
Speaker:examples where the CEO leaves
Speaker:and the business just won't.
Speaker:The founder CEO leaves, the business
Speaker:just fails.
Speaker:Apple is one.
Speaker:Salesforce is another.
Speaker:As an investor, how do
Speaker:you know or why are you willing
Speaker:to take that risk?
Speaker:And does it pay off or is it always
Speaker:ends up being the wrong decision?
Speaker:Just to be clear, we're in fact X
Speaker:Capital Partners. We invest
Speaker:at the series a
Speaker:seed extension and a little bit of
Speaker:seed so we don't do pre-seed.
Speaker:By the time we come in
Speaker:organizations, the youngest
Speaker:organization we have is probably
Speaker:three years old,
Speaker:which means they've gone through a
Speaker:number of business activities
Speaker:and cycles.
Speaker:Gotten over the notion, sort of
Speaker:moving the organization along.
Speaker:And we're really looking for about a
Speaker:million in revenue the
Speaker:previous year, revenue not forward
Speaker:looking revenue, but the previous
Speaker:year revenue.
Speaker:And so because of that, you have
Speaker:people who have really put in a lot
Speaker:of blood, sweat and tears.
Speaker:Those people who never heard the
Speaker:word no and can't.
Speaker:These are the sort of people who
Speaker:who've moved the organization to
Speaker:that particular point.
Speaker:At some point, I actually
Speaker:see a kind of exhaustion,
Speaker:but I also tend to see,
Speaker:because those people have had to
Speaker:focus really on the
Speaker:care and watering of an infant.
Speaker:That those people are extremely
Speaker:good at the birthing process
Speaker:and the nurturing process early on,
Speaker:and to get the community a village
Speaker:to help raise that child, that's
Speaker:what they're very, very good at.
Speaker:As the child gets to the
Speaker:point that they have, they're
Speaker:deciding on sort of what their own
Speaker:interests are and which is,
Speaker:say, a scaling opportunity.
Speaker:Should we actually diversify
Speaker:product? Should we diversify our
Speaker:geographies? What should we be
Speaker:doing? That's when I
Speaker:think you often see organizations
Speaker:and founders and founding
Speaker:teams struggling to make those
Speaker:sorts of decisions.
Speaker:How do you get money?
Speaker:Is one kind of a decision in
Speaker:persuading people to give you money
Speaker:for whatever the vision is you have.
Speaker:But how do you actually get that to
Speaker:grow?
Speaker:And most organizations will pivot,
Speaker:pivot, pivot, pivot.
Speaker:So they find problem problem,
Speaker:problem.
Speaker:And even as they seek to scale,
Speaker:even as they seek to move forward,
Speaker:they're not going to it's not going
Speaker:to be a linear progression up
Speaker:into the right. They're going to
Speaker:have to sort of retrench.
Speaker:You're going to have to rethink.
Speaker:They're going to actually especially
Speaker:in the market we see today, this
Speaker:market fundraising takes much longer
Speaker:than it did the standards by which
Speaker:you are given credit for milestones
Speaker:and therefore, given a valuation
Speaker:commensurate with what you as your
Speaker:aspirations are much, much
Speaker:different. If you are exhausted
Speaker:from the first part of those three
Speaker:years that you've had, if you don't
Speaker:actually have a vision for how to do
Speaker:the next part.
Speaker:If around the table you are not
Speaker:being nurtured and sort of developed
Speaker:by the venture capitalists and other
Speaker:and your advisors, then
Speaker:that's a situation where
Speaker:you will need to think about
Speaker:succession.
Speaker:Any of those things could be a
Speaker:rationale and a trigger for us
Speaker:to say we might
Speaker:need to think about succession.
Speaker:And do we have within the
Speaker:organization the right sort of
Speaker:person? That's what are people.
Speaker:And that's why I think it's so
Speaker:important to have the right CEO
Speaker:and the right type of CEO who has
Speaker:the right mandate and understands
Speaker:the purpose for which they're there.
Speaker:And if it is to be succession
Speaker:oriented, then it's very important
Speaker:that they understand it for
Speaker:business, but that they also that's
Speaker:the technical side.
Speaker:But they also become impassioned
Speaker:about a vision.
Speaker:And they take ownership of a vision,
Speaker:which is what you're saying exist
Speaker:and why founders are so seductive.
Speaker:Because they are passionate about
Speaker:something.
Speaker:You know, we people come in second.
Speaker:It's like, well, it's a nice baby.
Speaker:It's not a cute baby.
Speaker:And I think we should change some
Speaker:things about the baby.
Speaker:And so that then is an
Speaker:entirely different sort of an
Speaker:approach to this thing that we're
Speaker:then being put in charge of and
Speaker:over which we have stewardship as
Speaker:CEOs progressing into
Speaker:CEO roles.
Speaker:Sometimes when I look at some of the
Speaker:founders that I've worked with,
Speaker:they've had, inordinate amount
Speaker:of passion and, and
Speaker:I guess the question at hand
Speaker:for individuals that are in that
Speaker:see a role that have that broad
Speaker:scope that you talked about, are
Speaker:they in a position where they can
Speaker:tap into that at a level that
Speaker:is necessary, passion wise,
Speaker:to be able to take it to its next
Speaker:phase, I guess, is kind of the
Speaker:question.
Speaker:Both of you have been CEOs,
Speaker:but when you're sitting in that CEO
Speaker:role, you have got a lot
Speaker:of blocking and tackling that you
Speaker:have to do every day.
Speaker:The opportunity for you to become
Speaker:impassioned about the business
Speaker:and for you to then sort of
Speaker:because you're a problem solver
Speaker:also, and to see all potential
Speaker:and not a bunch of problems behind,
Speaker:because you're responsible for
Speaker:solving the problems and making sure
Speaker:that those problems don't become
Speaker:poison and that those poisons
Speaker:don't kill the organism.
Speaker:That is, it's hard to
Speaker:I think both do that and then
Speaker:to look toward the future and
Speaker:very frequently what we are asked
Speaker:to do as CEOs and organization
Speaker:to get now not a CEO.
Speaker:And I haven't been there for a
Speaker:number of years, almost a decade
Speaker:now. But what we've been
Speaker:asked to do is we've been asked to
Speaker:supplement what other people don't
Speaker:do. Well, quite often that's a
Speaker:mandate.
Speaker:This is your brief.
Speaker:The CEO does this great, the CFO
Speaker:does this great.
Speaker:There's all this stuff in between
Speaker:that doesn't happen. Well do it.
Speaker:And so you do it.
Speaker:Solve the problem.
Speaker:Solve the communication issues, the
Speaker:relationship issues. Because they're
Speaker:always going to be all of those.
Speaker:And the market issues that
Speaker:we have in terms of our customers,
Speaker:some are upset, you know, things
Speaker:haven't necessarily gone because we
Speaker:have a paid pilot didn't really
Speaker:work. You would solve all of that
Speaker:and at the same time get ready to
Speaker:take it all over.
Speaker:So that is a hard thing to do.
Speaker:I think probably both of you are
Speaker:highly skilled at doing that.
Speaker:You don't get credit for it,
Speaker:though, in terms of
Speaker:is this part of what
Speaker:makes you an effective
Speaker:successor?
Speaker:That is your hygiene.
Speaker:You don't get credit for hygiene.
Speaker:It's just like showing up.
Speaker:You don't get credit for.
Speaker:Something extraordinary has to
Speaker:happen from those sorts of things.
Speaker:On top of that, what do you do?
Speaker:And possibly from there you're
Speaker:actually creating then a passion
Speaker:for this next thing.
Speaker:You've. You've cleaned up.
Speaker:You've invested a lot.
Speaker:You have. Energy has been expanded.
Speaker:So now I'm really interested in what
Speaker:can happen next. So that's where the
Speaker:passion will come from. It might not
Speaker:be that original vision.
Speaker:You might not be the evangelist that
Speaker:those but those people are
Speaker:those original founders aren't CEOs.
Speaker:But what you probably will be
Speaker:is that you will be a not
Speaker:only a very good steward, but you
Speaker:will be evangelists for the new
Speaker:reality.
Speaker:And then that's going to be what
Speaker:you're going to be selling, and
Speaker:that's going to be what you're going
Speaker:to be managing. I think that's what
Speaker:best CEOs who then transition
Speaker:in to CEO roles.
Speaker:And also backfilling themselves,
Speaker:actually, you have to be able
Speaker:to free yourself up to do a new
Speaker:role.
Speaker:And so you need to backfill
Speaker:yourself.
Speaker:And so again you need to have
Speaker:your successor.
Speaker:Have you ever hired to call yourself
Speaker:Bethany or have you brand and have
Speaker:you ever hired to.
Speaker:Well.
Speaker:I've hired, the head of operations
Speaker:twice that of both
Speaker:became VP of ops as their second
Speaker:steps.
Speaker:I don't know that I've hired many,
Speaker:but I actually think about
Speaker:Brandon as being a
Speaker:CEO for
Speaker:the organization that we ran.
Speaker:So when we were at
Speaker:SwiftKey, SwiftKey had a consumer
Speaker:portion of the organization and also
Speaker:had an enterprise portion of the
Speaker:organization within the enterprise
Speaker:organization. I felt though that was
Speaker:my organization. I got to run it the
Speaker:way I thought I wanted to.
Speaker:And now that we have shared
Speaker:resources like engineering or sales,
Speaker:engineering or other things that we
Speaker:actually control and marketing,
Speaker:etc.. And then Brandon
Speaker:was an individual who had been on
Speaker:the product side and eventually took
Speaker:over the entire organization in
Speaker:terms of the operations of it, in
Speaker:terms of forecasting, in terms of
Speaker:pipeline management, in terms of
Speaker:sales strategy.
Speaker:All of that became his.
Speaker:And so, Brandon, I think of myself
Speaker:as actually having hired you for
Speaker:that role of CFO.
Speaker:And I found it interesting and and
Speaker:quite frankly, since then, in
Speaker:our overlaps in the world of
Speaker:venture backed businesses in London,
Speaker:and you have been CFO in two
Speaker:companies I know very well
Speaker:that has been a recommendation
Speaker:Commendation of you into those
Speaker:organizations in that role.
Speaker:And so. Although not
Speaker:necessarily hiring
Speaker:you in those sorts of spaces, I do
Speaker:believe that. But, you know, you
Speaker:show the attributes of my intention
Speaker:has always been for you to take over
Speaker:those organizations.
Speaker:That's my intention.
Speaker:So it's been it's interesting to
Speaker:try and find someone with
Speaker:the certain basket
Speaker:of skills, basket of proclivities,
Speaker:but is also a person
Speaker:who has an ambition
Speaker:and both the passion as well as
Speaker:technical skills, because I like
Speaker:that combination.
Speaker:I was just looking at your book.
Speaker:We don't need permission.
Speaker:And it's this kind of quote around
Speaker:small thinking and
Speaker:having, more imagination
Speaker:around your career and the impact
Speaker:that you can make.
Speaker:And the question that was occurring
Speaker:to me is quite similar to this
Speaker:conversation, which is, you know,
Speaker:sometimes as CEO, you're caught up
Speaker:in the, the, the blocking and
Speaker:tackling the hard stuff.
Speaker:And this thought around
Speaker:thinking more more about
Speaker:yourself, more about your career,
Speaker:more about what's possible within
Speaker:Brandon in terms of being able to
Speaker:reach into that passion pot, or
Speaker:to have a stronger vision of the
Speaker:future and to be able to express
Speaker:that. I'm just running from a
Speaker:mindset standpoint.
Speaker:Is there anything that you could
Speaker:talk about from,
Speaker:tips point of view, I guess for
Speaker:other CEOs in terms of how to
Speaker:galvanize that mindset that
Speaker:there is something bigger and better
Speaker:out there for me that I need
Speaker:to really consider.
Speaker:Think about creative imagination
Speaker:around and really be able to, you
Speaker:know, express both to myself
Speaker:but also to others.
Speaker:It is really intended to say
Speaker:that there are ways
Speaker:in which our complete mindset
Speaker:keeps us on a particular kind of a
Speaker:path, and if we don't work
Speaker:on that in a business context in
Speaker:particular, we will end up sort of
Speaker:repeating mistakes of the past.
Speaker:That's really what it is and how you
Speaker:as an individual or how you as an
Speaker:organization can actually
Speaker:battle this.
Speaker:I would say if I go all the way back
Speaker:to my law school experience, and it
Speaker:goes to a little bit of what Bethany
Speaker:said and what you've just asked.
Speaker:One of the things that's very clear
Speaker:is you are not going to wander your
Speaker:way and wind your way
Speaker:through to an outcome.
Speaker:Some people are very lucky and can
Speaker:sort of get there, but most people
Speaker:have to do some planning
Speaker:and that planning is absolutely
Speaker:imperative.
Speaker:When I think about the CEO,
Speaker:most CEOs are coming from another
Speaker:role. There's a period during which
Speaker:is some sort of garden leave, or
Speaker:some time at least when they're
Speaker:ramping down what they're doing and
Speaker:then they're going into another
Speaker:organization.
Speaker:And my point is, if you do, just
Speaker:one thing is to think about
Speaker:how you're planning that time.
Speaker:Go on vacation, spend
Speaker:some money that you've made in this
Speaker:in a in a transaction.
Speaker:Oh that's fantastic.
Speaker:But I think you also need to be
Speaker:planning your
Speaker:journey in the next organization.
Speaker:What are you going to be doing?
Speaker:And I think in three categories.
Speaker:One is substantively, what are you
Speaker:going to be doing early on to get
Speaker:some wins on the board, which is
Speaker:going to give you a lot of breathing
Speaker:space to do some other sorts of
Speaker:things.
Speaker:Lots of analysis and that sort of
Speaker:thing I think is good.
Speaker:But to get some wins on the board
Speaker:and how are you going to get those
Speaker:wins measurable? Think about that in
Speaker:advance.
Speaker:The other thing is going to be sort
Speaker:of your communication relationship
Speaker:building with the key stakeholders
Speaker:within the organization.
Speaker:How are you going to do that?
Speaker:What is that going to look like and
Speaker:what are you going to proactively
Speaker:do. And it's not going to be just
Speaker:I'm going to put in a series of
Speaker:weekly check ins.
Speaker:It's like, what am I actually going
Speaker:to do to build relationships,
Speaker:backchannel communications and other
Speaker:things which are necessary for the
Speaker:sophisticated and high functioning
Speaker:CEOs to get where they need to be.
Speaker:And then the third thing is, and
Speaker:what do I really want to get out of
Speaker:this, the narrative at the end of
Speaker:this role, because there will be an
Speaker:end of the role one way or another.
Speaker:You are aware of the role.
Speaker:The rollout grows you, the company
Speaker:gets exited in some sort of a
Speaker:fashion, you die, but it's
Speaker:going to end right.
Speaker:Let's not hope for the last one.
Speaker:But in terms of that,
Speaker:what do you actually what is your
Speaker:goal? What is the outcome.
Speaker:And that's what I get. Go all the
Speaker:way back to law school. Math
Speaker:professor. My name Roger Fisher.
Speaker:The most people go into
Speaker:conversations and activities without
Speaker:having thinking about how they would
Speaker:define success in some future
Speaker:state, and success would look like
Speaker:it does have to be a long and broad
Speaker:list. It doesn't have to be very
Speaker:specific, but it needs to be
Speaker:that success could be measured by
Speaker:these types of things.
Speaker:And if one of those is to actually
Speaker:transition and get into the
Speaker:CEO role is one is to be able
Speaker:to, you know, get a reputation
Speaker:that's associated with this
Speaker:experience that I've just had at
Speaker:this organization that is then going
Speaker:to lead to bigger things.
Speaker:So I'm I'm used to being in series B
Speaker:companies. I want to be in series C
Speaker:companies are to IPO
Speaker:all of that. Is that a plan?
Speaker:And I would be doing that in the
Speaker:time I'd be using to do it is before
Speaker:I actually arrive and not just
Speaker:planning, you know, sort of my
Speaker:commute, which is obviously
Speaker:important, but I would be planning
Speaker:how it is that those three
Speaker:things are going to happen.
Speaker:A practical question in a board
Speaker:meeting for the kind of CEO
Speaker:that we're talking about, what do
Speaker:you want to see from that person
Speaker:in that meeting?
Speaker:So I think we'll go back
Speaker:all the way to the beginning of this
Speaker:conversation.
Speaker:My c o o is
Speaker:the single source
Speaker:of truth.
Speaker:So in the board meeting from the
Speaker:CFO, who is normally
Speaker:the person, at least when I've been
Speaker:a CFO, I have always controlled the
Speaker:agenda.
Speaker:So I get to decide what we're going
Speaker:to talk about. There are certain
Speaker:things that have to happen.
Speaker:Every meeting.
Speaker:Right. We need to talk about sort of
Speaker:how we're doing with respect to our
Speaker:revenue forecast over the last
Speaker:quarter or in a relatively
Speaker:early organization the last month.
Speaker:How is all that going?
Speaker:What does your forecast look like,
Speaker:how things change?
Speaker:How are things shaping up?
Speaker:Are there key employees coming out
Speaker:or coming in?
Speaker:Those sorts of things.
Speaker:Beyond that, I want to make
Speaker:sure that I'm then leveraging
Speaker:the expertise around the table
Speaker:for something more than just
Speaker:reporting.
Speaker:They've read the memo ahead of time,
Speaker:they've read the presentation,
Speaker:they've gotten all of the reporting
Speaker:that they need. And what I need you
Speaker:to do is focus on the following.
Speaker:And generally a very good
Speaker:and I think an excellent CFO
Speaker:is not really playing defense that
Speaker:much, sort of trying to make sure
Speaker:that they've answered all the
Speaker:questions that might possibly come
Speaker:up and being so prepared for that.
Speaker:It is putting in front of the
Speaker:board the kinds of questions
Speaker:that are imperative for the
Speaker:organization to answer
Speaker:in order to be successful, and
Speaker:then to make demands
Speaker:of that group.
Speaker:And that demand is like this kind of
Speaker:an introduction.
Speaker:I'd like this sort of an indication
Speaker:or sort of an internal conversation
Speaker:with your team trying to activate
Speaker:them almost as if they were your
Speaker:own resources and your own
Speaker:employees.
Speaker:That's an excellent CEO,
Speaker:and I think most CEOs go in really
Speaker:defensively, so they go in with
Speaker:their sense of the Australian Open
Speaker:just ended up a little obsessed with
Speaker:tennis at the moment.
Speaker:So but they're great defensive
Speaker:players. They can hit everything
Speaker:back and everything back.
Speaker:You need to also be able to attack
Speaker:your job.
Speaker:In my opinion, along with the CFO,
Speaker:long CFO, is to make sure that
Speaker:all of your hygiene is taken care of
Speaker:so that that's not in question and
Speaker:that you're putting the critical
Speaker:questions in front of the group, and
Speaker:you continue to put those critical
Speaker:questions in front of the group in a
Speaker:timely and interesting fashion.
Speaker:So it's interesting to have the CEOs
Speaker:setting the agenda
Speaker:rather than the chair.
Speaker:Well, I guess the chair circulates
Speaker:it for the CEOs working closely
Speaker:with the chair to align the agenda.
Speaker:That does sound familiar.
Speaker:Tell me about the chairs.
Speaker:Well, you don't have to name them
Speaker:specifically because they probably
Speaker:watch. You know who we're talking
Speaker:about. But you know, these are
Speaker:non-executive chairs, right?
Speaker:Who are coming in.
Speaker:They sort of float in. They float
Speaker:out. And in the UK, all the chairs
Speaker:are sold.
Speaker:I mean, it's like you're from a
Speaker:different generation.
Speaker:They're not digital natives.
Speaker:They're generally not individuals
Speaker:who have spent much time scaling
Speaker:companies and then trying to
Speaker:trying to go for worldwide
Speaker:dominance.
Speaker:And so you're sort of sitting here
Speaker:saying that person is actually
Speaker:setting the agenda for exit,
Speaker:because ultimately this what we're
Speaker:looking for, right? We're looking
Speaker:for sensational growth and then a
Speaker:fabulous exit.
Speaker:And so I sometimes
Speaker:think with my chairs that
Speaker:I have to direct
Speaker:them for what I'm looking
Speaker:for. That goal that I set in my
Speaker:garden leave period is that
Speaker:I want to exit at some point.
Speaker:I don't want this organization just
Speaker:to operate forever.
Speaker:Now, I might want to go public
Speaker:and then continue to operate in it,
Speaker:but I'd really like to exit.
Speaker:And so in order to do that, we got
Speaker:to meet these milestone and metrics.
Speaker:And I'm the one who's driving.
Speaker:I got your money already.
Speaker:And you as the chair, are being
Speaker:asked to be a governance overlay
Speaker:on top of everything.
Speaker:But it's me who's the operating
Speaker:person. It's me who sees on day to
Speaker:day basis. It's me who is asking
Speaker:questions of what I need.
Speaker:It's not you who gets to say, this
Speaker:is Eric, okay?
Speaker:And let me let me give a big caveat
Speaker:because and Brandon, I'm sure
Speaker:afterward we'll sort of have to sort
Speaker:of apologize for everything that I
Speaker:say. But my thing
Speaker:is, I don't want to be on the bus
Speaker:that someone is driving who's not
Speaker:invested in the business.
Speaker:And when I say invest in the
Speaker:business, not financially, invest in
Speaker:business on a day to day basis.
Speaker:I've got other things.
Speaker:I've got a portfolio.
Speaker:I got one thing, I got one kid,
Speaker:they got many kids.
Speaker:And so I need to make sure that my
Speaker:kid gets what it needs.
Speaker:And it's a negotiation.
Speaker:I say it as if I can impose,
Speaker:but it is a negotiation.
Speaker:And I do think it is very much
Speaker:up to us.
Speaker:Bethany.
Speaker:And you tell me if you disagree,
Speaker:because you can absolutely disagree
Speaker:with this. But if it is up to us
Speaker:to say that this is what I need from
Speaker:you, it's just like in a
Speaker:relationship, right?
Speaker:I need this from you.
Speaker:We're married, but I need this from
Speaker:you.
Speaker:Yeah, and I think that works as long
Speaker:as the business is performing
Speaker:and there's trust in the
Speaker:organization.
Speaker:It becomes a very different
Speaker:relationship. If you're not
Speaker:performing or you're not showing up.
Speaker:If you lose the trust of the board,
Speaker:then you're going to have a
Speaker:completely different conversation,
Speaker:and the board will be telling you
Speaker:what the agenda items are and
Speaker:over scrutinizing.
Speaker:Well, I think what happens in those
Speaker:situations is, quite frankly, their
Speaker:conversations. That's happened to me
Speaker:before. It's always been the most
Speaker:successful call that the board
Speaker:will have conversations about you,
Speaker:and those conversations will be
Speaker:about what to do, because you are
Speaker:now part of the problem.
Speaker:So I'm assuming, though,
Speaker:and based on sort of my experience
Speaker:with Brandon, having watched the
Speaker:progress of his organizations and
Speaker:with you, and knowing your
Speaker:reputation that you have been
Speaker:successful in doing these sorts of
Speaker:things and the reason you've been
Speaker:successful is you have watched the
Speaker:hygiene and you've made sure that
Speaker:that's primary, but that you're
Speaker:looking toward the future.
Speaker:And that future focus is where I
Speaker:think you should be having your
Speaker:board spend time.
Speaker:When I've had the most successful
Speaker:boards, that is what they have been,
Speaker:and they have been our best
Speaker:advocates. They become evangelists
Speaker:and they become excited about what
Speaker:we're doing also.
Speaker:And that's part of that relationship
Speaker:building communication.
Speaker:I am also on a few boards,
Speaker:like my experiences are not
Speaker:necessarily as the
Speaker:CIO or I have seen these
Speaker:moments of losing trust in
Speaker:leaders or in the
Speaker:ability of the business to execute,
Speaker:because companies can grow very
Speaker:quickly and the company can
Speaker:outgrow a person within
Speaker:months.
Speaker:It can be quite shocking at times if
Speaker:things are going well.
Speaker:Isn't that a great problem?
Speaker:And hopefully I would love
Speaker:to be the kind of person who could
Speaker:say, you know what?
Speaker:I was here for the part
Speaker:that made sense for me to do, and
Speaker:I'm part of why things went so well
Speaker:and it's time for me to exit.
Speaker:Generally, I'm not that kind of
Speaker:person. Generally, I'm not looking
Speaker:to see if I'm the right person, and
Speaker:generally someone else has to help
Speaker:me to see that I'm not the right
Speaker:person anymore.
Speaker:So, Eric, it's been
Speaker:a lovely, fascinating
Speaker:conversation. We've covered
Speaker:quite a few SEO type
Speaker:lessons.
Speaker:So if our listeners can only
Speaker:take away one thing
Speaker:from this episode with you,
Speaker:what should they remember?
Speaker:For your listeners
Speaker:who are aspiring to be SEOs,
Speaker:our current SEOs, I
Speaker:would say the one piece
Speaker:of advice that I would give
Speaker:is that you are
Speaker:the single source
Speaker:of truth for the organization,
Speaker:and that you should actually,
Speaker:with venture capitalists or your
Speaker:other funders, be it a bank, be the
Speaker:debt provider, whomever it is
Speaker:that you want to be able to
Speaker:manage that relationship.
Speaker:And that one is one that you want to
Speaker:have built on trust and confidence.
Speaker:So think of yourself as a single
Speaker:source of truth. That is not some
Speaker:things from the CFO, some things
Speaker:from the CEO, but were combined
Speaker:into a single sort of
Speaker:page or songbook.
Speaker:And we're all singing from that same
Speaker:songbook to the external world.
Speaker:I think that's the most important
Speaker:thing, and that your role
Speaker:is as much a role can
Speaker:really talk about this.
Speaker:Your role is as much a role of the
Speaker:alignment of a variety of
Speaker:stakeholders as it is
Speaker:a problem solver
Speaker:or purveyor of
Speaker:solutions for
Speaker:nitty gritty stuff.
Speaker:So on that hymnbook note, we
Speaker:will close this conversation.
Speaker:So thank you, Eric Collins, for
Speaker:joining us on the operations Room.
Speaker:If you like what you hear, please
Speaker:subscribe or leave us a comment and
Speaker:we will see you next week.
