73. Building an AI First Organisation Part 2
In this episode we discuss: Unlocking AI for Non-Technical Leaders. We are joined by Charlie Cowan, Founder of Kowalah and author of "How To Sell Tech" and “The Revenue Operations Playbook”.
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We chat about the following with Charlie Cowan:
- Is AI more accessible than we think?
- What’s the difference between AI agents and workflows—and why does it matter for businesses looking to scale?
- How can organizations build their own AI-powered tools instead of relying solely on SaaS solutions?
- What role does leadership play in AI adoption, and why is AI literacy now a must-have skill for future executives?
- Can a simple “power hour” or habit shift really transform your productivity—and what does AI have to do with it?
References
- https://www.linkedin.com/in/charliecowan/
- www.charliecowan.ai
- www.kowalah.com
Biography
Charlie works with CEOs and senior leaders looking to embed AI behaviours across their organisation.
With a 25 year career in SaaS, consulting and enterprise sales, Charlie bridges the gap between AI technology and practical applied use cases that help teams work smarter and faster.
Charlie is the author of two books - How To Sell Tech and The Revenue Operations Playbook.
Charlie is the founder of Kowalah, an AI-powered platform that helps buying teams to run a great buying processes, pick the right vendors and reduce the fear of messing up.
Charlie built Kowalah as a solo-founder using AI development tools.
To learn more about Beth and Brandon or to find out about sponsorship opportunities click here.
Summary
26:36 Introduction to AI Adoption for Non-Technical Executives
027:16 Understanding AI Optimism vs. Pessimism
28:08 Defining AI Policies for Effective Implementation
29:52 The Concept of Agentic AI
31:23 Distinguishing Between Agents and Workflows
33:01 Building Effective AI Agents
37:49 Evaluating Future Tech Stacks for AI Integration
43:05 Empowering Leadership in the Age of AI
46:06 Navigating AI Tools for Policy Management
46:23 Crafting Effective Prompts for AI Tools
49:54 Building a Data Repository for Enhanced Insights
51:44 The Power Hour: Maximizing Productivity
This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis:
Podcorn - https://podcorn.com/privacy
Transcript
Hello everyone, and welcome to
Speaker:another episode of The Operations
Speaker:Room, a podcast for CEOs.
Speaker:I am Brandon Metzinger and I am
Speaker:joined by my lovely co-host Bethany
Speaker:Air is having some nice porridge.
Speaker:Breakfast is what I want.
Speaker:I'm looking at.
Speaker:If only it were porridge.
Speaker:Oh, it's not porridge.
Speaker:Looks like porridge.
Speaker:No, this is the chia seed concoction
Speaker:that, thanks to Zoe, I eat every
Speaker:day. From chia seeds,
Speaker:other seeds, kefir,
Speaker:milk, lots of nuts.
Speaker:And therefore every
Speaker:day.
Speaker:Right. So every trendy ingredient
Speaker:that I can imagine is on the list.
Speaker:Pretty much.
Speaker:So didn't you tell me before that
Speaker:the taste of your dish
Speaker:there, the cheesy delight, is not
Speaker:great or it's rather plain.
Speaker:Yeah. It's plain.
Speaker:I have some strawberries in there
Speaker:that helps the nuts help
Speaker:it, but it's a bit of a slog.
Speaker:And also because it's so
Speaker:chewy, it requires
Speaker:so much chewing
Speaker:that it takes me absolutely forever
Speaker:to eat it.
Speaker:I don't know how much reading you've
Speaker:done about ultra processed food.
Speaker:So one of the things
Speaker:with ultra processed food is it's
Speaker:very soft.
Speaker:And that has made our
Speaker:jaws stop growing properly.
Speaker:I've not heard this before.
Speaker:Is that true?
Speaker:Yeah. So children
Speaker:and we were raised on enough ultra
Speaker:processed food to make the
Speaker:difference.
Speaker:All of our jaws are more
Speaker:recessed, and the reason why we need
Speaker:our wisdom teeth taken out is.
Speaker:Apparently your jaw grows
Speaker:through hard work as
Speaker:it's forming as a child.
Speaker:And so it actually comes further
Speaker:out. And then you have space
Speaker:for your wisdom teeth.
Speaker:But with ultra processed food, it's
Speaker:really soft. So our jaws don't work
Speaker:anymore. And that's why everybody
Speaker:needs braces.
Speaker:Oh my goodness. I did not know this.
Speaker:Well, I would say this I ate a
Speaker:tremendous amount of cashews.
Speaker:And cashews are quite hard, so I
Speaker:suspect my jaw line is
Speaker:kind of being exercised.
Speaker:From the outside, it looks like your
Speaker:jawline is fine, but I don't know.
Speaker:Did you take your wisdom teeth out?
Speaker:Could you have had more of a jaw?
Speaker:Had you
Speaker:knocked everyday?
Speaker:I don't even know.
Speaker:I literally have no memory or
Speaker:recollection of having them taken
Speaker:out, so they must still be on.
Speaker:Right. And came in in a normal
Speaker:way. Like they didn't cause any
Speaker:problems. You didn't need anything.
Speaker:My superior jawline was
Speaker:sufficient to house them.
Speaker:All those cashew nuts and the clean
Speaker:living of Canada.
Speaker:So besides
Speaker:the chia seed.
Speaker:That's right. The ultra processed
Speaker:food.
Speaker:What is happening in Bethany's
Speaker:world?
Speaker:Just insanely busy.
Speaker:So I've been working from home
Speaker:this week. I managed to leave the
Speaker:house on Wednesday and
Speaker:now today it's Friday.
Speaker:We're doing this at 8 a.m..
Speaker:I have back to back meetings
Speaker:like literally back to back in my
Speaker:calendar. Not a sliver of
Speaker:space until half six.
Speaker:So luckily my husband is working
Speaker:from home today and so he's going to
Speaker:bring me some lunch around noon
Speaker:so that I could continue to eat,
Speaker:although at the rate it takes me to
Speaker:eat the chia seeds, I might not
Speaker:actually have finished them by the
Speaker:time lunch arrives.
Speaker:Okay, so that's fabulous.
Speaker:So you have the in-house servant, in
Speaker:this case being your husband to
Speaker:deliver your lunch for.
Speaker:Why not call him that?
Speaker:That's that's I mean, this is the
Speaker:give and take in a relationship, so
Speaker:I don't know either. A quick note, I
Speaker:just had this small thought this
Speaker:morning. So I'm working with a
Speaker:couple individuals right now that
Speaker:are they do operations.
Speaker:But really the granular operations
Speaker:if you want to call it that.
Speaker:One of the individuals was asking
Speaker:me for a recommendation for
Speaker:employment law.
Speaker:So I just did a quick screenshot
Speaker:of recommendations coming
Speaker:out of the Operations Nation slack
Speaker:channel to her that operations
Speaker:Nation slack channel is good for
Speaker:this kind of thing, which is vendor
Speaker:sourcing recommendations around
Speaker:products and people and that sort of
Speaker:thing is fabulous for that.
Speaker:People are very
Speaker:proactive. I would say, in terms of
Speaker:giving thoughts on who to speak to,
Speaker:who's good to, you know, to work
Speaker:with these sorts of things.
Speaker:The other thought was just the
Speaker:obvious one, which is she's an
Speaker:operator. She's at that level.
Speaker:She'd be perfect to be part of the
Speaker:operations nation, or at least on
Speaker:the slack channel, is just a good,
Speaker:useful tool.
Speaker:When these questions pop up like
Speaker:this that are quite straightforward,
Speaker:where people can respond back
Speaker:and give you the kind of collective
Speaker:set of good answers.
Speaker:And it's free.
Speaker:It's definitely a good community for
Speaker:like having problems with my pension
Speaker:provider or
Speaker:the health insurance quote
Speaker:has gone up by 40%.
Speaker:What do I do?
Speaker:Or is that the same for everyone
Speaker:else? Like those are the types of
Speaker:questions you see.
Speaker:I went to a comedy show on Sunday
Speaker:night and then a comedy show on
Speaker:Wednesday night, and I was telling
Speaker:a friend and he was just like, is
Speaker:this a new thing?
Speaker:Like, it's going to comedy shows
Speaker:you're saying?
Speaker:And said, in that kind of like
Speaker:snide, dismissive way,
Speaker:like, what is up with you?
Speaker:It's not our new thing.
Speaker:And I actually booked them ages
Speaker:ago, maybe July, August time.
Speaker:And it just happened to arrive now.
Speaker:And there were two very different
Speaker:comedy shows. So one of them was in
Speaker:Hackney.
Speaker:It was very trendy.
Speaker:The guy is a Sri Lankan
Speaker:comic, as you do
Speaker:a Sri Lankan comic that kind of
Speaker:looks like Jesus, like he is very
Speaker:curly hair down to his waist.
Speaker:Very good looking guy.
Speaker:And he studied
Speaker:medicine and then decided not to
Speaker:become a medic, and
Speaker:then became a developer and
Speaker:a comic and is trying to be a comic
Speaker:more than a developer.
Speaker:So anyhow, I
Speaker:have never felt like more out
Speaker:of place.
Speaker:Everybody was trendy.
Speaker:Like, I don't think there were any
Speaker:other women in the room.
Speaker:They were just non-binary.
Speaker:I guess we call them women anymore.
Speaker:Like, I would have chosen to be
Speaker:non-binary had I had
Speaker:the option, because you kind of look
Speaker:at it, you're like, oh, I could be a
Speaker:woman, and that looks like a really
Speaker:bad deal, or I can opt
Speaker:out
Speaker:and I think I'm going to opt out.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Fair enough. Yeah.
Speaker:And then every man had a mustache.
Speaker:Is that. Is that a thing right now?
Speaker:It really is a thing.
Speaker:And here we are like middle
Speaker:class clap mites
Speaker:nots with mustaches
Speaker:and combat boots.
Speaker:And I was just like.
Speaker:And not non-binary.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And I just never felt so uncool in
Speaker:my life.
Speaker:But it was quite a good show other
Speaker:than just feeling like such
Speaker:the square.
Speaker:And then on Wednesday
Speaker:night, it was a
Speaker:Irish comedian who's a couple years
Speaker:older than me. Woman.
Speaker:And other than the fact that at
Speaker:least 90% of the audience were
Speaker:Irish, everybody was a middle
Speaker:aged woman and maybe
Speaker:one and four brought their husbands
Speaker:along. So I felt
Speaker:totally in
Speaker:my element. We all belonged.
Speaker:We were all square, we
Speaker:were all 50 ish,
Speaker:and it was quite good, but totally
Speaker:different sets.
Speaker:One was around
Speaker:like his was around not belonging
Speaker:and racism
Speaker:and privilege.
Speaker:And hers is about
Speaker:menopause and sex.
Speaker:And husbands and children.
Speaker:Congratulations though to you.
Speaker:Because actually booking kind of
Speaker:not social but like just outings
Speaker:of fun and enjoyment.
Speaker:You know, I feel like my calendar
Speaker:right now is pretty sparse in that
Speaker:respect.
Speaker:So I'm always actively looking
Speaker:for, I don't know, just interesting
Speaker:things that would be, I don't know,
Speaker:fun, enjoyable to do and were doable
Speaker:just given our schedule with the
Speaker:kids and all that jazz.
Speaker:But nothing has really popped up
Speaker:quite recently. That seems useful
Speaker:enough or good enough to go to.
Speaker:All right. So we have got
Speaker:a great topic for today,
Speaker:which is a returning topic, as
Speaker:it were, building an AI for
Speaker:Organization Part two.
Speaker:We have an amazing returning guest
Speaker:for this, which is Charlie Cowan.
Speaker:We had so much fun with Charlie that
Speaker:we had a second conversation.
Speaker:And of course, he is an AI
Speaker:strategist and AI change
Speaker:agent within organizations
Speaker:today. So before we get into our
Speaker:part two with Charlie, Just wanted
Speaker:to talk about a couple bits and
Speaker:pieces here.
Speaker:One of the elements that he spoke
Speaker:about was leadership.
Speaker:Using AI themselves
Speaker:on a daily basis to really
Speaker:understand what they're talking
Speaker:about. So if they're going to encourage
Speaker:the rest of the organization to
Speaker:experiment with AI, the starting
Speaker:point for these things, outside of
Speaker:speaking about it, is for the
Speaker:leadership to really understand what
Speaker:they're actually talking about, or
Speaker:what value they're actually getting
Speaker:themselves, to be able to express it
Speaker:in a more articulate way,
Speaker:presumably.
Speaker:What do you make of that? Is that a
Speaker:hard requirement, do you think?
Speaker:I don't know if it's a hard
Speaker:requirement, but like once you start
Speaker:using it, you can't go back.
Speaker:So I think it's like the it's more
Speaker:like in order to understand
Speaker:what you're talking about, you
Speaker:should. And also to understand the
Speaker:what is the constraints, what it's
Speaker:good at, what it's not.
Speaker:But it's also just like a really
Speaker:convenient tool.
Speaker:So whether or not you're using it
Speaker:for other people, you should start
Speaker:to play around with it and use it
Speaker:for yourself.
Speaker:It's just so nice.
Speaker:So we had a new
Speaker:commission policy.
Speaker:Somebody had written it.
Speaker:It was just in legalese,
Speaker:through and through.
Speaker:In the old world, I would have had
Speaker:to rewrite that or have somebody
Speaker:rewrite it or, you know, give it to
Speaker:our copywriter to just put it in our
Speaker:tone of voice or, you know, it'd be
Speaker:a total waste of time.
Speaker:And instead, I stuck it in.
Speaker:Claude said, keep it exactly
Speaker:the same sections
Speaker:don't change the content, just
Speaker:make it sound like our tone of tone,
Speaker:of voice.
Speaker:And under a minute later, it was
Speaker:done.
Speaker:It was really good.
Speaker:The only annoying thing is Claude
Speaker:loses formatting, so I
Speaker:had to go and reformat it.
Speaker:But like, it's just so nice
Speaker:to have those options or
Speaker:handed a legalese documents
Speaker:to have to understand.
Speaker:Couldn't understand one paragraph.
Speaker:No matter how many times I looked at
Speaker:it, threw it
Speaker:into ChatGPT to
Speaker:just explain to me what the
Speaker:paragraph is talking about and what
Speaker:I need to worry about.
Speaker:And it came out and told me
Speaker:it's really nice.
Speaker:It just makes life easier.
Speaker:I mean, do you use it.
Speaker:For me creating things I need to
Speaker:distribute? I always end up passing
Speaker:it through ChatGPT.
Speaker:Now to kind of do a once over in
Speaker:terms of making it better.
Speaker:And all things being equal, I am not
Speaker:a fabulous writer.
Speaker:I can write and I can get my message
Speaker:across, but every time I put it
Speaker:through ChatGPT and get my output,
Speaker:it is dramatically better for
Speaker:the most part. So I'm like, oh,
Speaker:great. And I might tweak it here and
Speaker:there, but definitely use it for
Speaker:that purpose. And then the reverse,
Speaker:which is where you just pointed out
Speaker:any kind of incoming document that
Speaker:is highly annoying for me to
Speaker:understand and read, passing it
Speaker:through to you, but again, to either
Speaker:simplify it or kind of expressing
Speaker:it in a different way, where I can
Speaker:actually pull out the key bits that
Speaker:I need to quickly.
Speaker:It's very useful for that.
Speaker:I'm a little bit sometimes
Speaker:skeptical, but for things that are
Speaker:rather important where the detail
Speaker:matters, I'm a little more worried
Speaker:sometimes that it's not pulling out
Speaker:all the bits that I actually need,
Speaker:to be honest. There's some level of
Speaker:my going back to the source
Speaker:document just to check things and
Speaker:verify that at all.
Speaker:I'm getting what I need, basically.
Speaker:But my suspicion is, and
Speaker:this is separate from ChatGPT and
Speaker:the generic tools right now.
Speaker:But there's probably again, probably
Speaker:AI agents out there that
Speaker:are verticals that probably do a
Speaker:much better job of this to ensure
Speaker:that you're getting exactly what you
Speaker:need with a higher level of
Speaker:confidence and accuracy than using
Speaker:the generic tools.
Speaker:But that aside, your
Speaker:use cases or my use cases, and I'm
Speaker:sure for any C-suite leader or
Speaker:that kind of incoming document
Speaker:of complexity, output of actual
Speaker:things that you need to communicate
Speaker:seems like a no brainer.
Speaker:And then the other one I use is
Speaker:if I have writer's block
Speaker:or I don't quite know how to get
Speaker:started, and that blank sheet of
Speaker:paper a moment, rather than
Speaker:just the willpower of getting past
Speaker:the blank sheet of paper that I have
Speaker:used for the last, whatever,
Speaker:30, 40 years of my life,
Speaker:I'll go to ChatGPT or Claude
Speaker:and just say, this is what I have
Speaker:to do.
Speaker:How should I get started?
Speaker:You know, and just kind of what
Speaker:would be the typical arguments in
Speaker:this case? Or what would the AI
Speaker:structure be?
Speaker:And even if I don't end up using
Speaker:that structure. I no longer have a
Speaker:blank sheet of paper, and that just
Speaker:really helps get me started.
Speaker:And I don't need that same level of
Speaker:willpower I used to have.
Speaker:Yeah, I think you're exactly right.
Speaker:So I was having to come up with
Speaker:kind of a interview process for
Speaker:sales reps, and also the kinds
Speaker:of questions that I want to ask for
Speaker:different elements that I was
Speaker:looking for in terms of being able
Speaker:to make judgments on the candidates
Speaker:and ChatGPT for that kind of generic
Speaker:interview process and questions
Speaker:was absolutely fabulous.
Speaker:And to your point, instead of me
Speaker:having to I mean, I've interviewed
Speaker:sales reps so many times before with
Speaker:so many different question types and
Speaker:processes.
Speaker:It's all vaguely in the back of my
Speaker:head, but it requires me
Speaker:if I need to do net new, to think
Speaker:about it again and kind of think
Speaker:through. Okay, what did I do before?
Speaker:Do I have some previous documents I
Speaker:can rip off?
Speaker:All that takes thinking time
Speaker:basically, whereas now
Speaker:I can just ignore all that wholesale
Speaker:and very rapidly get
Speaker:the process, get the steps, get the
Speaker:questions and get the
Speaker:criteria boxes all set up
Speaker:basically within whatever, half
Speaker:an hour and then ship it out to Emma
Speaker:as part of the process and boom,
Speaker:rocking and rolling.
Speaker:So I think for that kind of
Speaker:activity, for stuff that you kind of
Speaker:know, but it's annoying to have
Speaker:to re remember everything.
Speaker:That's a great use case.
Speaker:I love that like the annoying re
Speaker:remembering.
Speaker:That's why we're like yeah we're so
Speaker:over it.
Speaker:So Charlie talked several
Speaker:times about this, which is every
Speaker:time he has to do something,
Speaker:he actually doesn't go to the
Speaker:generic box, as it were.
Speaker:He always creates a project for
Speaker:himself and gives context
Speaker:or the prompts around the particular
Speaker:subject matter that he's wanting a
Speaker:response to in this case.
Speaker:And so his go to effectively is to
Speaker:create projects, is what I'm saying.
Speaker:So my curiosity with you,
Speaker:do you use projects and
Speaker:is it useful?
Speaker:I'm very impatient and a little bit
Speaker:lazy.
Speaker:And so I'm using gen
Speaker:AI to make my life easier
Speaker:really quickly.
Speaker:And I find projects kind of annoying
Speaker:because it slows me down.
Speaker:And I think if I were trying to do
Speaker:the next level of work, it would be
Speaker:worth the input.
Speaker:But for the most part, I find
Speaker:that without using projects, the
Speaker:output is good enough that
Speaker:I don't find it worthwhile
Speaker:putting in that next layer.
Speaker:I'm not like Charlie, who
Speaker:has created an entire project
Speaker:without, you know, to tie a product
Speaker:and code without using
Speaker:anybody but him.
Speaker:I just want to know
Speaker:what would be some good agenda items
Speaker:for a sales kickoff.
Speaker:As Charlie described, some of the
Speaker:projects that he does, and some of
Speaker:the prompts that he sets up are
Speaker:super complex.
Speaker:Like, like, you know, he described
Speaker:like doing a five page prompt.
Speaker:I think it was a 20 page prompt.
Speaker:Yeah. Yeah, that sounds like a lot
Speaker:of thinking.
Speaker:Seems like so the subset
Speaker:of that is he has created
Speaker:what he called a CEO pod
Speaker:with pre-built prompts for
Speaker:interesting topics, and I thought
Speaker:that seemed very interesting to me
Speaker:as a senior executive.
Speaker:So essentially, what he's done is
Speaker:taking that product trumpet over the
Speaker:trumpet before It's usually used for
Speaker:like sales enablement for a buyer
Speaker:to go in there with all the
Speaker:documentation around the product,
Speaker:this and the other is used it
Speaker:to basically be a place for
Speaker:anybody that goes to his LinkedIn
Speaker:feed to go into that little
Speaker:box world, and in that box world
Speaker:that is called the CEO pod.
Speaker:He has three prompts that are
Speaker:sitting there as defaults.
Speaker:One prompt is for
Speaker:all hands prep and
Speaker:the definition or the.
Speaker:I guess the objective of that prompt
Speaker:is to develop your messaging
Speaker:and talk track to convey your vision
Speaker:and inspire your employees.
Speaker:So it's kind of a drop in prompt for
Speaker:a project, presumably for all
Speaker:hands that you could use going
Speaker:forward. So my suspicion
Speaker:is for people like us where
Speaker:we don't do spending hours building
Speaker:prompts of five pages, that
Speaker:there should be good, healthy,
Speaker:generic prompts for things like all
Speaker:hands or this then the other, that
Speaker:we can simply take it and drop in
Speaker:and use it, where we actually get
Speaker:a better answer than what we would
Speaker:have got generically to the box, but
Speaker:I don't have to think about
Speaker:creating that problem myself in this
Speaker:case.
Speaker:Yeah. And then the question is
Speaker:who's going to provide it?
Speaker:Like is it going to be the rise of
Speaker:a bunch of apps that are
Speaker:basically rap arounds of the
Speaker:labs?
Speaker:Is it going to be the
Speaker:labs themselves providing it,
Speaker:or is it going to be consultants, or
Speaker:is it going to be like your really
Speaker:talented 22
Speaker:year old who comes into the business
Speaker:is like, you know that going to be
Speaker:their future, but I don't think it's
Speaker:gonna be the future for very long,
Speaker:because ChatGPT
Speaker:is just going to create a better
Speaker:user interface and eat up
Speaker:all of these other businesses.
Speaker:Another one that I hear is not doing
Speaker:well is 11 X.
Speaker:Like the first automated
Speaker:one of these like SDR offerings,
Speaker:they got to 10 million super fast.
Speaker:For what I hear, they're about to
Speaker:that 50% churn
Speaker:and wasn't a good product.
Speaker:Not worth it after people gave it a
Speaker:go. And then also just loads
Speaker:and loads of people are now building
Speaker:their own automated stores.
Speaker:And so that's another example of
Speaker:there's going to be a lot of crashing
Speaker:and burning while figuring out where
Speaker:the real value is, and that
Speaker:apps layer is definitely at
Speaker:risk and probably
Speaker:like how specialized
Speaker:can you go?
Speaker:So when you talk about like ones
Speaker:for lawyers, one's for
Speaker:doctors, like, you know, the very
Speaker:specific horizontals are probably
Speaker:safe.
Speaker:But let's say.
Speaker:I somehow feel it's like the hype
Speaker:curve where the companies come out
Speaker:of nowhere. They create first
Speaker:versions of the product around stars
Speaker:or whatever people are.
Speaker:Budgets are excited.
Speaker:They spend it, they use it.
Speaker:It's very disappointing for all
Speaker:sorts of reasons.
Speaker:Then we go through that phase where
Speaker:all these companies and products
Speaker:go to the trough of like
Speaker:disillusionment and like not getting
Speaker:the revenues, high churn, this, that
Speaker:and the other.
Speaker:But slowly but surely they figure
Speaker:it out and they figure out how to
Speaker:build real value and they come back
Speaker:up the curve eventually.
Speaker:So it feels like on balance,
Speaker:I would imagine this will happen in
Speaker:this sector, but there is
Speaker:that kind of risk that sits there in
Speaker:terms of open AI ultimately eating
Speaker:into these stocks in a way where
Speaker:somehow it becomes so easy
Speaker:for a single individual organization
Speaker:to do it all themselves.
Speaker:They don't actually need to go to
Speaker:these companies to buy these
Speaker:products, to your point.
Speaker:And it's all happening so fast.
Speaker:So you have these rises and falls
Speaker:within months, not
Speaker:years.
Speaker:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker:So what I wanted to ask you was
Speaker:how to communicate the importance
Speaker:of experimenting
Speaker:with ChatGPT and Claude
Speaker:and know PLM and Gemini
Speaker:across the organization to get
Speaker:people that dropped people's minds
Speaker:around the fact that this is very
Speaker:important for businesses going
Speaker:forward. And we need to start
Speaker:experimenting. We need to start
Speaker:doing things. And obviously, from an
Speaker:operator standpoint, there's all
Speaker:sorts of things you can do to make
Speaker:that happen.
Speaker:But purely in terms of just straight
Speaker:up communication to the company,
Speaker:what are the kind of like key
Speaker:messages that are
Speaker:the most powerful to just get into
Speaker:people's minds that this matters.
Speaker:And we need to do something about
Speaker:it.
Speaker:So I'm just stuck on your mention
Speaker:of Gemini, and I'm using Gemini
Speaker:right now, and I can't really tell
Speaker:if I'm using the paid version of the
Speaker:free version, but whatever I'm using
Speaker:just sucks.
Speaker:So first of all, I just want to add
Speaker:that in like it is
Speaker:massively underwhelming.
Speaker:It doesn't help me in any way.
Speaker:It doesn't do any of the things I
Speaker:would like it to do, and its answers
Speaker:are stupid.
Speaker:Slam on Gemini.
Speaker:Basically, everywhere I
Speaker:go on the Google suite,
Speaker:there's a little like, how can I
Speaker:help you box?
Speaker:And then I ask it to help me and it
Speaker:just does not do anything helpful.
Speaker:And so perfect example
Speaker:is I took
Speaker:the commission policy,
Speaker:ran it through Claude, made it
Speaker:friendly and pleasant, stuck
Speaker:it in a Google doc.
Speaker:Then I asked Google to format
Speaker:it like the above
Speaker:policy, and it just rewrote
Speaker:the policy for me in
Speaker:a stupid way.
Speaker:And it didn't reformat anything.
Speaker:And it only does stuff in the chat
Speaker:box.
Speaker:But like, I don't care about the
Speaker:chat box. I would think that if
Speaker:you are Google and it's integrated,
Speaker:it should do things in my document
Speaker:and not just produce me.
Speaker:Like all it is, is an integrated
Speaker:chat box.
Speaker:That's not the power of Google
Speaker:having it.
Speaker:They need to get to that next level.
Speaker:When you think about canvas within
Speaker:chat GPT, that is genius.
Speaker:That works so well in that respect.
Speaker:And you can imagine from a Google
Speaker:doc point of view, they should do
Speaker:exactly the same thing, and it
Speaker:should be way better given as Google
Speaker:Docs as opposed to some flimsy
Speaker:canvas thing that ChatGPT just
Speaker:created.
Speaker:So anyhow, that wasn't your
Speaker:question.
Speaker:So your question was what are
Speaker:the reasons why?
Speaker:What's the message to the company?
Speaker:You know, we need have this idea
Speaker:that for employees that
Speaker:this is the future, this is how we
Speaker:win. Part of that is to take
Speaker:A.I., truly embrace it,
Speaker:Activate ourselves to use it to help
Speaker:us with what we're doing to to get
Speaker:to the promised land effectively,
Speaker:and that this is a winning mindset
Speaker:and don't see it as cheating.
Speaker:We should be using it and
Speaker:it's very sensible.
Speaker:So we have for
Speaker:engineering, we've thought through
Speaker:the workflows and the tools to
Speaker:be used and have some
Speaker:guidance is quite specific.
Speaker:And then for the rest of the
Speaker:business, what we're doing is
Speaker:in every single weekly
Speaker:stand up, somebody does a show
Speaker:and tell on what they've done
Speaker:with Jenny that week
Speaker:and what they've learned and what
Speaker:worked and what didn't work.
Speaker:And so it can be really high
Speaker:level stuff for what marketing's
Speaker:doing. Or this week's
Speaker:was somebody in our R&D
Speaker:team going into
Speaker:huge amounts of detail with,
Speaker:I don't know, I think it was
Speaker:Claude's coding
Speaker:program and
Speaker:it's now becoming a genetic.
Speaker:And so like how it was solving the
Speaker:problem and working on
Speaker:multiple versions.
Speaker:And when it got itself into a death
Speaker:loop and how they got out of that
Speaker:death loop. So it was like super
Speaker:detailed and technical,
Speaker:but it wasn't a set training
Speaker:program.
Speaker:But we are giving people
Speaker:guidance and
Speaker:thinking through more than
Speaker:just a policy on how to use
Speaker:it and what
Speaker:to get out of it.
Speaker:And then the other thing is we do
Speaker:have budgets to experiment.
Speaker:So people are looking at windsurf
Speaker:and cursor and the ChatGPT
Speaker:and the Claude and
Speaker:Copilot,
Speaker:GitHub Copilot and
Speaker:Amazon Q so we're looking
Speaker:at like all of the different coding
Speaker:tools and not
Speaker:embedding them, but just
Speaker:experimenting and seeing
Speaker:which ones are good and which ones
Speaker:are shit. And just as another FYI,
Speaker:nobody seems to like copilot very
Speaker:much. It sounds like copilot
Speaker:might be a bit like Gemini,
Speaker:where it's just not there.
Speaker:So Charlie has services that he
Speaker:provides.
Speaker:The primary one is his AI
Speaker:Inspiration workshop, where he goes
Speaker:into an organization and
Speaker:gets them really not just excited by
Speaker:the possibilities around Cod and
Speaker:ChatGPT, but they kind
Speaker:of work hands on.
Speaker:What kind of use cases might be
Speaker:interesting for that particular
Speaker:group? And I think he referenced
Speaker:working in a organization for this
Speaker:workshop with the finance team
Speaker:and with that finance team.
Speaker:They outline all sorts of possible
Speaker:ways to use it within finance.
Speaker:That's part of that workshop where
Speaker:they got those finance individuals
Speaker:on their pathway to take
Speaker:those projects and start building
Speaker:them out, basically with projects
Speaker:or custom chat gifts or what have
Speaker:you, I suppose.
Speaker:So I was kind of wondering, what
Speaker:do you make of that activation of
Speaker:people getting things to happen,
Speaker:workshops like this?
Speaker:Yeah, I think it's a really good
Speaker:idea. And also like
Speaker:finance might be a bit risk averse
Speaker:and not wanting to change, but they
Speaker:have some of the most boring,
Speaker:tedious, repetitive jobs out there.
Speaker:If I were the person who had to,
Speaker:like, handle all
Speaker:of the expenses
Speaker:and accounts, I would be crying
Speaker:out and experimenting to see how
Speaker:I can make my job less boring and
Speaker:let the machines do all of the shit
Speaker:work. And I think that that's kind
Speaker:of the inspiration is
Speaker:what are the things
Speaker:that are mind numbingly boring
Speaker:that you have to do all the time,
Speaker:and then it's worth taking the
Speaker:time to create the prompts and to
Speaker:create the agent that just does
Speaker:the shit work for you.
Speaker:And that's kind of like my
Speaker:inspiration, you know, it's like all
Speaker:of those back office roles
Speaker:that are horrible.
Speaker:They're the first place to look
Speaker:because you just have happier people
Speaker:who aren't just doing
Speaker:awful stuff, and they
Speaker:don't have to do awful stuff the
Speaker:whole time. But like months end,
Speaker:nobody looks forward to month end in
Speaker:finance.
Speaker:Yeah, it's a lot of pressure.
Speaker:A lot of pressure and a lot of
Speaker:boring shit.
Speaker:So I will report on this at
Speaker:some point in the future, but I'm
Speaker:very keen in an organization I'm
Speaker:currently working with to take
Speaker:all the policies and to
Speaker:stick them into notebook alarm
Speaker:specifically. So this company uses
Speaker:the Google Suite.
Speaker:So notebook alum, you can share
Speaker:your notebooks across your
Speaker:organization seamlessly.
Speaker:And notebook alum seems very well
Speaker:suited for this task which is
Speaker:taking documents inserting them,
Speaker:not using the extended world of
Speaker:alums, whereby gets confused between
Speaker:your documentation and the greater
Speaker:world of documentation around those
Speaker:policies, and
Speaker:also with that podcast
Speaker:interface and different ways to
Speaker:access the information.
Speaker:And it seems so much more obvious.
Speaker:I wouldn't say fun, but just like
Speaker:different ways to like allow
Speaker:the employee to get information
Speaker:in a fast, efficient, timely basis.
Speaker:So I think that as an actual kind of
Speaker:low hanging fruit as a CEO,
Speaker:that seems like just a fun
Speaker:thing to start with.
Speaker:Yeah, I agree.
Speaker:Let me know how it goes.
Speaker:So let's park it here and let's get
Speaker:on to our conversation.
Speaker:Part two with Mr. Charlie Callum.
Speaker:The more that I learn about AI,
Speaker:the more I realize you don't need
Speaker:to know anything about AI to
Speaker:embed AI and benefit
Speaker:from AI, and you
Speaker:need to know about neural networks
Speaker:to benefit from AI.
Speaker:In the same way, you need to know
Speaker:about nuclear fission to benefit
Speaker:from electricity.
Speaker:You don't. You just need to plug in
Speaker:to the wall and consume the
Speaker:electricity.
Speaker:How it gets to your plug
Speaker:socket is really I have no interest
Speaker:to you, and we
Speaker:very much seen this with AI
Speaker:over the last, you know, sort of 10
Speaker:or 20 years where it's been, oh,
Speaker:you need to be a data scientist.
Speaker:You need to have a machine learning
Speaker:degree to be able to understand
Speaker:what's going on.
Speaker:But November 22nd,
Speaker:with the arrival of ChatGPT,
Speaker:that is the plug socket.
Speaker:The plug socket is the chat input
Speaker:window.
Speaker:That is all you need to know what
Speaker:happens behind it.
Speaker:Neural networks.
Speaker:Reinforcement learning.
Speaker:You don't need to know that to
Speaker:benefit from it.
Speaker:We are all
Speaker:CEOs of organizations
Speaker:that don't want to be left behind.
Speaker:We understand the importance of AI.
Speaker:How do we get started?
Speaker:There's a few things that I would
Speaker:think about as a sort
Speaker:of setting the scenes as an
Speaker:executive, as a CEO, as part of that
Speaker:leadership team.
Speaker:And that is firstly, just
Speaker:understanding what is our
Speaker:approach here.
Speaker:You can be an AI
Speaker:pessimist, which is where
Speaker:you're like, oh, you know, I'm not
Speaker:really sure about this thing.
Speaker:And if we are going to use it, I'm
Speaker:going to be thinking about how do we
Speaker:strip out costs from
Speaker:our business.
Speaker:How do we become more
Speaker:efficient and do things with less
Speaker:people?
Speaker:I think of this if you're a company
Speaker:of a thousand people, well,
Speaker:we can get to the same destination
Speaker:now with only 500.
Speaker:So that's the pessimistic view.
Speaker:The alternative is to be an
Speaker:AI optimist and go right, we're
Speaker:going to lean into this and
Speaker:we're a company of what do I say, a
Speaker:thousand people and we're now over
Speaker:500 people. We're not going to act
Speaker:like a company of 5000 people.
Speaker:We're going to be able to go further
Speaker:with the same amount of resource.
Speaker:And that kind of, are we leaning
Speaker:into this thing or are we leaning
Speaker:out of it is a real
Speaker:precursor to everything that you're
Speaker:going to do afterwards.
Speaker:So having defined right, we're going
Speaker:to lean into this and we're going to
Speaker:figure out how do we act like a much
Speaker:bigger company by using
Speaker:these tools.
Speaker:Next thing you probably want to do
Speaker:is very quickly codify
Speaker:that into some form of
Speaker:AI policy.
Speaker:Now I'm very nervous about
Speaker:mentioning AI policies
Speaker:because it's like, oh my goodness.
Speaker:Like, this is just like, you know,
Speaker:who's going to read it?
Speaker:What's the point.
Speaker:Where CEOs, we love a good policy.
Speaker:You don't need to say that policies
Speaker:are a problem here.
Speaker:One of the common things that we see
Speaker:is that if you ask companies,
Speaker:you know, what are you doing with
Speaker:AI?
Speaker:You know, what benefits are you
Speaker:seeing? You often see quite
Speaker:muted responses.
Speaker:We're not really seeing it.
Speaker:We've got some pieces.
Speaker:There's nothing really that's out
Speaker:there in production.
Speaker:If you go and speak to the people
Speaker:one by one, are you using
Speaker:ChatGPT every day?
Speaker:Every day? I'm using it all the
Speaker:time. You know, it's where I go to
Speaker:ask any task that I've got.
Speaker:So where is this discrepancy
Speaker:coming from?
Speaker:People are saying they're using it
Speaker:all the time, and yet companies
Speaker:are saying we're not really using it
Speaker:after this because people are not
Speaker:telling their manager, their
Speaker:leaders, their colleagues when
Speaker:they're using it. It's kind of under
Speaker:the radar a little bit.
Speaker:You know, oh, I'm just going to ask
Speaker:ChatGPT or Claude.
Speaker:It might be seen as cheating.
Speaker:And often this is because certainly
Speaker:when I'm speaking to teams, I'm
Speaker:not sure what the rule is.
Speaker:I'm not sure whether I'm allowed
Speaker:to use it, so I'm definitely doing
Speaker:it because I know that it gets me
Speaker:where I want to go faster, but
Speaker:I'm not being very public about it.
Speaker:So one of the things that you can do
Speaker:with creating a short,
Speaker:pragmatic, positive
Speaker:AI policy is
Speaker:we are leading into AI.
Speaker:We encourage your use.
Speaker:We encourage you to experiment with
Speaker:new tools, but be
Speaker:sensible. Here are some guardrails
Speaker:that you might want to follow so
Speaker:that you know we're not sharing
Speaker:confidential data or so on,
Speaker:but having that policy where we're
Speaker:setting what's right and what's
Speaker:wrong, but reinforcing to everyone
Speaker:we are leaning into this and we want
Speaker:you to lean into it is
Speaker:it's a really good approach.
Speaker:And I can't remember if I asked this
Speaker:question before, but it's something
Speaker:I really want to know about.
Speaker:And it's probably like the next
Speaker:layer of depth rather than like,
Speaker:should you have a AI policy?
Speaker:But being in tech, everybody says
Speaker:that 2025 is the year of
Speaker:a genetic.
Speaker:It's all about a genetic AI.
Speaker:And yet we mostly just talk about
Speaker:the chat bot and using ChatGPT
Speaker:to do a bit of thinking for us,
Speaker:rather than to actually start to
Speaker:automate our lives and be
Speaker:proper agents.
Speaker:I really want to understand about a
Speaker:genetic, because it's
Speaker:like the year of people creating
Speaker:agents to sell to other people,
Speaker:but if you're in a business and
Speaker:don't want to buy 500 million
Speaker:different vertical agents,
Speaker:how do you start to actually
Speaker:automate with agents and are there
Speaker:any good platforms to do that?
Speaker:Agent says the password.
Speaker:So first let's define what
Speaker:an agent is.
Speaker:And as everyone's talking about it,
Speaker:suddenly it becomes just like this
Speaker:fake. No one's quite sure.
Speaker:For an agent to have agency,
Speaker:it has to have the ability to choose
Speaker:what tools, if any,
Speaker:it is going to use to complete
Speaker:the task.
Speaker:The opposite of that is what we
Speaker:might think of a workflow
Speaker:or an automation.
Speaker:So if people are building things
Speaker:with it's happier if they're
Speaker:building things would make if they
Speaker:built integrations with Boomi
Speaker:or Informatica.
Speaker:If those things are predetermined,
Speaker:even if it is an alarm call
Speaker:and then another alarm call
Speaker:that is still more of a workflow or
Speaker:an automation because whatever
Speaker:happens has been predetermined.
Speaker:The true agent is
Speaker:that I've got this alarm
Speaker:tool and it is able to
Speaker:decide now I'm going to
Speaker:go and check a stock price.
Speaker:Now I'm going to create a document.
Speaker:Now I'm going to go and ask, you
Speaker:know, another alarm for for
Speaker:something else.
Speaker:And I'm going to decide because
Speaker:I've got the agency about
Speaker:what to use and when.
Speaker:And so for any company that is
Speaker:thinking of building agents
Speaker:or is being sold an agent
Speaker:by someone else, that's the
Speaker:important thing to dig in.
Speaker:Have we really got an agent which
Speaker:is able to make decisions, or
Speaker:we just got a workflow?
Speaker:And why that's important is that
Speaker:if we're saying 2025 is the year
Speaker:of the agents.
Speaker:What does that mean?
Speaker:We start to think about true
Speaker:digital workers,
Speaker:digital employees that
Speaker:can make decisions.
Speaker:So if we I don't
Speaker:know if someone working in HR as
Speaker:an HR administrator,
Speaker:I'm able to as a digital
Speaker:agent, I'm receiving a
Speaker:request or a job posting
Speaker:request from a manager.
Speaker:I'm then able to go and
Speaker:use another tool to go and write up
Speaker:the job description.
Speaker:Then able to go and decide if
Speaker:we're going to have that budget and
Speaker:when we're going to post it, I'm
Speaker:then going to choose which
Speaker:job boards we're going to post it
Speaker:on. Then maybe if and I'm going to
Speaker:choose which candidate I'm
Speaker:going to shortlist and get invited
Speaker:in for an invite, that would
Speaker:be one or a series of agents
Speaker:that are making decisions as
Speaker:opposed to a true workflow.
Speaker:But that's when you're starting to
Speaker:really replace humans.
Speaker:So that's a great definition
Speaker:of agents.
Speaker:This year is supposed to be the year
Speaker:of a genetic AI.
Speaker:By the way, genetic is a word that's
Speaker:been basically made up.
Speaker:That means agent, IC
Speaker:agent. Like now everybody
Speaker:in here, like I think I saw a
Speaker:genetic for the first time about
Speaker:nine months ago. And I was like,
Speaker:what is this word? Is it a typo?
Speaker:And now, like my entire life is
Speaker:about a genetic.
Speaker:It sounds great, I want some
Speaker:if this is the year of a genetic, I
Speaker:said, this is a year that all
Speaker:software companies create agents
Speaker:that other people can buy.
Speaker:Or is this the year that I can
Speaker:suddenly have a million agents in
Speaker:my business by
Speaker:using ChatGPT?
Speaker:I'll answer that by talking
Speaker:to maybe some of the steps that
Speaker:a CEO or a company might
Speaker:want to go through when
Speaker:embarking on trying to make that
Speaker:decision, both on anthropic
Speaker:docs, website documentation,
Speaker:and also on eyes.
Speaker:They talk about passing the the
Speaker:intern test, which is
Speaker:you should think of I as
Speaker:a brand new, eager,
Speaker:but poorly informed intern.
Speaker:And if you provide that intern
Speaker:with a badly defined
Speaker:instructions, you will get
Speaker:what you deserve in return.
Speaker:The original request
Speaker:is quite poorly defined,
Speaker:and that's often because
Speaker:the person that's doing the job
Speaker:today has been doing it for a while.
Speaker:They kind of know it.
Speaker:There's lots of sort of assumptions
Speaker:or well, I'm sure you know what that
Speaker:means.
Speaker:And this is often why
Speaker:you see in companies that when
Speaker:someone asks, you know, how do I
Speaker:do this? Or, you know, need and you
Speaker:can speak to Gary.
Speaker:He's been here for 20 years and he
Speaker:knows how that works.
Speaker:You can't take what's in Gary's
Speaker:head and just give that to
Speaker:the LM, because there's so much
Speaker:of Gary's experience and knowledge
Speaker:that's wrapped up in there.
Speaker:So I find myself writing
Speaker:a lot of long, prompt documents
Speaker:that are maybe anything from 10 to
Speaker:20 pages long, which is first
Speaker:we do this, then we do that.
Speaker:Then we do that.
Speaker:This is what that means
Speaker:to pass the internal test.
Speaker:If I gave that Google doc to
Speaker:an intern, could they do
Speaker:what I'm asked them to do and I
Speaker:would get the output?
Speaker:And with anthropic and OpenAI,
Speaker:when they say pass the intern test.
Speaker:If the answer to that is no, that
Speaker:if I gave that document to an
Speaker:intern, would I get the response
Speaker:I wanted?
Speaker:Then how is an El Alam going
Speaker:to do that?
Speaker:It's not.
Speaker:So I'd say a large proportion
Speaker:of the time that I spend is in
Speaker:getting the ask correct.
Speaker:Once you've got the ask correct,
Speaker:then creating whether as a
Speaker:custom GPT or whether it is
Speaker:building out some form of agent that
Speaker:is able to access different function
Speaker:calls, that becomes relatively
Speaker:easy, because what you've said to
Speaker:the intern is, let's do that HR
Speaker:hiring example, right.
Speaker:The first thing that you're going to
Speaker:do is you're going to be on the
Speaker:lookout for job requests
Speaker:that come from hiring managers.
Speaker:The second thing that you're going
Speaker:to do is you're going to take all
Speaker:the details of that job request, and
Speaker:then you're going to start drafting
Speaker:up a more detailed job description.
Speaker:This is what our job descriptions
Speaker:should look like, and all of the
Speaker:details of what should be in each
Speaker:section.
Speaker:And then you're going through all of
Speaker:that. We use some examples
Speaker:of how that H.R.
Speaker:Hiring person would have
Speaker:the choice of choosing which job
Speaker:boards to post on.
Speaker:Well, how do we make that decision
Speaker:and how do we access those job
Speaker:boards.
Speaker:And that's really the instructions
Speaker:that you're going to end up providing
Speaker:to the AI.
Speaker:Now, if you don't need to access any
Speaker:tools because the human wouldn't
Speaker:access any tools, then you're
Speaker:thinking more of just a simpler
Speaker:implementation.
Speaker:If you are looking at accessing
Speaker:tools or you need to access your HR
Speaker:system or your payroll, then
Speaker:you're thinking more of, I need to
Speaker:create some kind of agent that can
Speaker:choose when to use these tools.
Speaker:And how do you create the agent?
Speaker:That's my question.
Speaker:My recommendation is a tool
Speaker:called the vessel
Speaker:AI SDK.
Speaker:So vessel VR CEO
Speaker:and vessel is a web
Speaker:hosting and deployment company.
Speaker:So anyone that's an AI product
Speaker:management product development role
Speaker:may have come across V0.
Speaker:So that's a v not dev.
Speaker:That also comes from vessel.
Speaker:And that is a AI
Speaker:generative UI.
Speaker:So you can design your applications.
Speaker:But there's vessel AI SDK
Speaker:is a really neat way
Speaker:of plugging in to open AI
Speaker:and to anthropic and to Gemini
Speaker:and to any of your preferred
Speaker:LMS, and it
Speaker:gives you the ability to create
Speaker:these calls out, these tool calls,
Speaker:which is what makes an agent.
Speaker:Well, because I guess if I step
Speaker:back to what I'm thinking about
Speaker:and maybe it can help is in
Speaker:the past, and particularly
Speaker:as my experiences as Crow, which
Speaker:I complain about bitterly.
Speaker:Not the crow part, but the number
Speaker:of tools I had to buy.
Speaker:Because you had this tech stack, the
Speaker:revenue tech stack and
Speaker:everything costs like 20
Speaker:K other than Salesforce, which
Speaker:of course costs shitloads more.
Speaker:But it'd be like, okay, now it's 20
Speaker:K for this and 20 K for
Speaker:this and 20 K for that, and you add
Speaker:it all in, and then suddenly
Speaker:you had a tech stack
Speaker:of, I don't know, 20 different
Speaker:things and half 1 million pounds.
Speaker:What I don't want to do
Speaker:when I'm looking at my
Speaker:IT stack for the future,
Speaker:is to have that 20,
Speaker:30, 40 pieces
Speaker:of tooling that are critical for the
Speaker:business, and some of them are big
Speaker:and some of them little, and they're
Speaker:all whacking some AI on,
Speaker:so they all have a chat bot.
Speaker:Nobody seems to have a particularly
Speaker:compelling vision.
Speaker:I know that we are not all that
Speaker:impressed by GitHub copilot,
Speaker:you know, versus Verses like
Speaker:cursor and some of the others.
Speaker:It's I don't want to blindly
Speaker:buy all of these tools
Speaker:that say they have something, that
Speaker:maybe have an agent, and
Speaker:I still just have to pay shitloads.
Speaker:What I would like to understand
Speaker:is how to think about
Speaker:what the future
Speaker:tech stack should be for
Speaker:a scale up. So a couple hundred
Speaker:people to a thousand people.
Speaker:Technology's moving really quickly.
Speaker:This is the year of the agent.
Speaker:What should I be buying today
Speaker:or what should I be evaluating?
Speaker:Because my ideal and my vision,
Speaker:and I'm guessing that other people
Speaker:would have this vision, is that
Speaker:everybody has
Speaker:their own assistant
Speaker:who can do all of this shit work,
Speaker:and it's really easy.
Speaker:And you just say to your assistant,
Speaker:can you look through all of these
Speaker:CVS for me and stick
Speaker:them and highlight the best
Speaker:ones, or contact them or,
Speaker:you know, and be able to write The
Speaker:foreign intern prompt that's 20
Speaker:pages long.
Speaker:But once I do that, I never
Speaker:have to do that work again.
Speaker:And I want everybody in my company
Speaker:to be able to do that, not just the
Speaker:individual who understands how to
Speaker:use VSL or
Speaker:API's.
Speaker:How far away are we from
Speaker:that and
Speaker:what are the steps to get there
Speaker:this year?
Speaker:It is such a
Speaker:fast moving space
Speaker:that it is just impossible
Speaker:to say, you know, use
Speaker:this tool or use that tool
Speaker:because so much is coming out,
Speaker:whether that's models or whether
Speaker:it is tools that are set over the
Speaker:top of these models that
Speaker:help to create these workflows
Speaker:is speaking to a CEO.
Speaker:This would be my advice
Speaker:is that there is never
Speaker:been a better opportunity right now
Speaker:to internalize
Speaker:some of these skills.
Speaker:Previously you might have said, you
Speaker:know, build versus buy while the
Speaker:building is just too complicated.
Speaker:We're not going to go and set up
Speaker:some massive infrastructure
Speaker:and start investing in people to
Speaker:run that. So we're going to buy
Speaker:we'll buy a CRM, we'll buy
Speaker:an air platform, whatever that might
Speaker:be. But I think we're seeing now
Speaker:that pioneering companies,
Speaker:and that doesn't have to be just
Speaker:like some funky startup.
Speaker:But actually, I mean, you saw this
Speaker:with Klarna recently
Speaker:and saying, you know what with some
Speaker:of these tools, whether that is
Speaker:universal, whether that is V0,
Speaker:whether it is a
Speaker:new development platform
Speaker:that people are going to, you know
Speaker:what, I can take non
Speaker:development people.
Speaker:So a product manager or
Speaker:someone in an operations team and
Speaker:I can start building out proof
Speaker:of concepts and building internal
Speaker:products without
Speaker:having to go and get a SAS
Speaker:subscription from someone else.
Speaker:And suddenly I'm relying on
Speaker:their roadmap rather than
Speaker:our own.
Speaker:So I think there's going to be,
Speaker:you know, some companies that just
Speaker:don't get involved in this at all
Speaker:and just stay. Let's leave AI
Speaker:aside.
Speaker:Then there are going to be some that
Speaker:go. We want to buy stuff.
Speaker:So let's rely on someone
Speaker:else's a platform
Speaker:for stars
Speaker:or for marketing or whatever.
Speaker:But I think there's going to be an
Speaker:increasing number of companies said,
Speaker:you know what?
Speaker:We have got insight
Speaker:into what are our challenges.
Speaker:And we think it's quite unique to
Speaker:us. And we're just going to
Speaker:have a go at building something
Speaker:internally using these
Speaker:publicly available tools.
Speaker:It's about using as
Speaker:many tools as you can come across,
Speaker:as they keep getting developed to
Speaker:improve your learning and the way
Speaker:of working.
Speaker:This all feeds into that first
Speaker:bit, which is about, you know, AI
Speaker:positive or a negative
Speaker:AI going to lean into AI
Speaker:or lean out of it.
Speaker:And again, checkers is important.
Speaker:So having done that
Speaker:then the primary
Speaker:driver of a good change program,
Speaker:and everyone will know this
Speaker:regardless of what it is you're
Speaker:trying to change, is having
Speaker:empowered and inspired
Speaker:senior leaders that are at
Speaker:the top of that program.
Speaker:So I would then be looking at
Speaker:who's the rest of your executive
Speaker:leadership team. So if you are the
Speaker:CEO, I'd be looking left at the
Speaker:CFO. I'd be looking at that chief
Speaker:Revenue Officer.
Speaker:I've been looking at the Chief
Speaker:People officer and a level
Speaker:down into those VP's
Speaker:and figuring out quickly,
Speaker:how do we get those people
Speaker:comfortable with using
Speaker:AI for their own tasks?
Speaker:It is so important to have that
Speaker:team really understand
Speaker:how I can help them personally,
Speaker:because that immediately filters
Speaker:down to the rest of the
Speaker:team. So you've got to get that team
Speaker:on board so that could be just
Speaker:running.
Speaker:So inspirational workshops for those
Speaker:leaders.
Speaker:Maybe have a breakout session at
Speaker:your next leadership offsite.
Speaker:And it's not about encouraging
Speaker:them about how their teams should be
Speaker:using AI.
Speaker:It's about how do you
Speaker:use AI?
Speaker:If you're a c o,
Speaker:you have a set of
Speaker:direct reports that you need to
Speaker:manage and inspire.
Speaker:You have got colleagues
Speaker:who run finance or on
Speaker:HR, or who run legal.
Speaker:And how do you better understand
Speaker:their view of the world as a
Speaker:CEO? Or you may be just
Speaker:going through a merger or
Speaker:acquisition, and you may be having
Speaker:to figure out, how do I
Speaker:align this whole new set of people
Speaker:and processes and data into our
Speaker:organization?
Speaker:So it's thinking about how does
Speaker:ChatGPT, how does Claude, how
Speaker:does Gemini, how does that solve
Speaker:your personal, daily
Speaker:and monthly working processes?
Speaker:And if you can figure that out
Speaker:immediately, it gives that
Speaker:permission to everyone below
Speaker:to explore and experiment as well.
Speaker:I tried to just have one
Speaker:subscription, but I now end up
Speaker:having to have two.
Speaker:So I have both Claude
Speaker:and Betty because I
Speaker:just find Claud writes things
Speaker:better. But ChatGPT has a wider
Speaker:range of capabilities and
Speaker:functionality and also is attached
Speaker:to the internet, and I use it when
Speaker:I'm stuck thinking,
Speaker:but and kind of in those use cases
Speaker:you talked about and like the team
Speaker:use it for ideas for deal
Speaker:reviews or how to write a better
Speaker:proposal.
Speaker:But what I really want to use it for
Speaker:is all of the hard things
Speaker:that are boring.
Speaker:And I hate like org charts,
Speaker:but I ended up spending about 2.5
Speaker:hours trying to get it to write me
Speaker:an org chart, and I could not.
Speaker:And I was asking it to help me
Speaker:figure out how to tell it, to write
Speaker:me an org chart, and I could not.
Speaker:Is this what it's worth, going for
Speaker:some sort of AI training course?
Speaker:Or is it just really bad at making
Speaker:org charts no matter what?
Speaker:Because for whatever reason, they're
Speaker:incredibly difficult.
Speaker:So there's some basic tips that you
Speaker:can follow. So whether you're using
Speaker:code called ChatGPT.
Speaker:Gemini.
Speaker:Any of these tools.
Speaker:Firstly, in both Claude and ChatGPT,
Speaker:you can set up a project and
Speaker:set a project as a wrapper
Speaker:around a task or a set of
Speaker:chats.
Speaker:So as a CEO, if
Speaker:you're doing anything repeatedly.
Speaker:So that might be a set of chats
Speaker:about one of your direct reports.
Speaker:It might be a set of chats about an
Speaker:acquisition you're going through.
Speaker:It might be a set of chats about a
Speaker:policy or process that you're
Speaker:crafting.
Speaker:Create a project.
Speaker:You then upload background
Speaker:information so that could be
Speaker:documents. It could be
Speaker:just your instructions about how
Speaker:you want ChatGPT to
Speaker:respond to you.
Speaker:And then you get into how do you
Speaker:craft a prompt.
Speaker:And I'll give you some specifics
Speaker:here. So my typical
Speaker:prompt, especially something when
Speaker:I'm reusing it, is anything from
Speaker:6 to 8, nine, ten
Speaker:pages long ago.
Speaker:That's that's longer the little chat
Speaker:window there.
Speaker:But because I'm, I'm using that
Speaker:prompt again and again, it's
Speaker:worthwhile.
Speaker:So I break it up with
Speaker:XHTML tags.
Speaker:Now you don't need to be a developer
Speaker:to know this. I'll just explain it
Speaker:super simply. If you don't want to
Speaker:add XML tags.
Speaker:So a left arrow kind of opens
Speaker:it. And then you write the word
Speaker:objective and then a right arrow
Speaker:to close it. So that's your opening
Speaker:tag objective.
Speaker:And then to close that XML
Speaker:tag you do exactly the same, except
Speaker:there's a backslash up at
Speaker:the start after the first opening
Speaker:bracket.
Speaker:And I'll put some of the notes about
Speaker:this prompt and guidelines so that
Speaker:you can have it in the show notes.
Speaker:Now when you're writing your prompt
Speaker:you're basically structuring.
Speaker:So I say objective.
Speaker:This is the first part.
Speaker:The objective of this prompt is
Speaker:to develop a job description
Speaker:or a merger plan, whatever it might
Speaker:be. Then the next tag might be
Speaker:open the tag instructions.
Speaker:Right. This is how I want you to do
Speaker:it. The user is going to provide you
Speaker:with this information.
Speaker:I mean, I'm the user, but I'm going
Speaker:to provide you with this information.
Speaker:I then want you to ask me some
Speaker:questions. And here are the
Speaker:questions which I put in another
Speaker:question tag.
Speaker:Then you get to the two most
Speaker:important parts of a really
Speaker:great prompt.
Speaker:And they're often the hardest bits
Speaker:to put it in.
Speaker:And this is what takes their long
Speaker:time and makes it a ten page
Speaker:document.
Speaker:So examples.
Speaker:So think about the intern.
Speaker:If I ask you to build
Speaker:me an org chart, but I don't
Speaker:show you what a good org
Speaker:chart looks like.
Speaker:2 or 3 of them, you're just
Speaker:running around in the darkness.
Speaker:If I don't show you a bad
Speaker:org chart, you don't know what bad
Speaker:looks like.
Speaker:So whether it is,
Speaker:you know, a job description,
Speaker:whether it's a spreadsheet table,
Speaker:whether it is a project timeline,
Speaker:whatever it is that you want.
Speaker:A good prompt should always have at
Speaker:least 2 or 3 examples,
Speaker:a good one, and then a bad one.
Speaker:So that can take up quite a bit.
Speaker:The final tag that I always
Speaker:have in there is exceptions.
Speaker:So what should the
Speaker:AI do if
Speaker:you don't have certain information
Speaker:that you've asked for?
Speaker:So for example, if I'm drafting
Speaker:a job description and I've asked
Speaker:the AI and the instructions to
Speaker:ask me for the salary range,
Speaker:let's say I haven't got the salary
Speaker:range yet. Well, what should the AI
Speaker:do in that situation?
Speaker:You might say if the user does not
Speaker:have a salary range, then
Speaker:know that this is to be verified
Speaker:later and at the bottom of
Speaker:your response, put some next
Speaker:actions or follow ups or whatever.
Speaker:So this sounds quite
Speaker:detailed, but if you're
Speaker:doing one to ones with your direct
Speaker:reports, you do that regularly
Speaker:and you're going to do it a lot.
Speaker:So it's worth spending an hour
Speaker:writing the prompt
Speaker:so that you've got that in there.
Speaker:So there's just a bit of guidance.
Speaker:If you put the the right
Speaker:in front to really
Speaker:pass the intern test.
Speaker:If you gave that to an intern,
Speaker:they'd give you a good response.
Speaker:Then I think you'll start to find
Speaker:you get better.
Speaker:Whether that's an org chart
Speaker:has on that, because maybe you're
Speaker:trying to get a visual, which it
Speaker:probably wouldn't be very good at.
Speaker:But in terms of the hierarchical
Speaker:structure would probably be
Speaker:pretty handy at doing that.
Speaker:We in our company
Speaker:kick off this year, we had everybody
Speaker:working groups to identify use
Speaker:cases along the customer journey
Speaker:where applying.
Speaker:I would be really cool.
Speaker:And every single
Speaker:team, they came up with loads of
Speaker:different ideas, but every single
Speaker:team came up with one idea that was
Speaker:the same, which is basically
Speaker:putting all
Speaker:of our internal data
Speaker:in a data repository and putting
Speaker:ChatGPT on top, or a GPT
Speaker:on top. So like all of the
Speaker:historic slack
Speaker:information, all of our Google
Speaker:drives.
Speaker:Then you have Salesforce
Speaker:data, etc., then be able
Speaker:to from that repository, ask
Speaker:like, give me a summary of
Speaker:what the customer relationship has
Speaker:been like to date.
Speaker:Give me a summary about like
Speaker:usage of that customer, all of those
Speaker:types of things.
Speaker:So that we go think about the
Speaker:build versus buy.
Speaker:I'd be taking a look at glean.
Speaker:I'm not sure if you come across Glen
Speaker:GLE and.com.
Speaker:And it's exactly that use case.
Speaker:So founded by some ex Googlers.
Speaker:How do we use AI
Speaker:to search across our
Speaker:existing data sources.
Speaker:And at first glance you say,
Speaker:well, you know, the challenge
Speaker:is quite easy because we just go
Speaker:and, you know, plug it in via APIs
Speaker:to all these different things, but
Speaker:you need to preserve the
Speaker:data privacy rights of
Speaker:the source material.
Speaker:So if I go search customer
Speaker:X, how much did they spend last
Speaker:year. Well, I should only be able
Speaker:to get that answer if
Speaker:I would be able to get that
Speaker:information in the actual source
Speaker:system, because I've got access to
Speaker:that data or whatever.
Speaker:Anyway, so I had a chat with
Speaker:one of their team just before
Speaker:Christmas and it was a super
Speaker:interesting use case.
Speaker:But that's exactly what Glenn is
Speaker:targeted, that.
Speaker:When we first kind of reconnected
Speaker:and started talking and you talked
Speaker:about your Power Hour,
Speaker:and I think I have told everybody I
Speaker:know about it, and I thought, why
Speaker:not share it with the rest of
Speaker:our listeners?
Speaker:What's your power hour?
Speaker:So my Power Hour started
Speaker:during Covid,
Speaker:and like many of us,
Speaker:I was a commuter before
Speaker:Covid, jumping on a train.
Speaker:God knows what hour into
Speaker:London.
Speaker:Covid came along and suddenly
Speaker:I had all this time in the morning
Speaker:and my wife would take the kids to
Speaker:school and, you know, I'd
Speaker:be up and about, you know, having
Speaker:taking the dogs for a walk.
Speaker:7:00.
Speaker:And then the kids are off.
Speaker:And then I had to sort of hour from
Speaker:eight till nine when nothing
Speaker:was really happening.
Speaker:And so I decided that I was going
Speaker:to start to write a book
Speaker:during that hour.
Speaker:And so I would just write, you
Speaker:know, a chapter in an hour, having
Speaker:thought about what was going to
Speaker:write in the shower.
Speaker:And suddenly I found it was like
Speaker:super productive.
Speaker:Like by the time I got to 9:00, I
Speaker:had done a ton of work and probably
Speaker:my most creative work of the
Speaker:day. I was lucky enough to finish
Speaker:published that book, and I just kept
Speaker:that power hour going.
Speaker:And it's the hour that I work for
Speaker:myself, whether that's on
Speaker:sort of personal writing, whether
Speaker:it's recording a YouTube video.
Speaker:And I'm very humbled
Speaker:that I get lots of lovely comments
Speaker:from people like, I've got no idea
Speaker:how you create so much stuff.
Speaker:You know, there's always a new
Speaker:e-book that you've published, or
Speaker:you've recorded a video for YouTube,
Speaker:or you've done a podcast, or you've
Speaker:published a book and you know, how
Speaker:are you doing all this stuff?
Speaker:And you've got four children and two
Speaker:dogs and you've got, you know, your
Speaker:work and everything, and it's that
Speaker:Power hour has been
Speaker:super helpful.
Speaker:And once you get into the
Speaker:habit of it, then
Speaker:it's very difficult to break.
Speaker:It doesn't actually seem like work
Speaker:anymore. It's just a routine I
Speaker:find myself.
Speaker:Weekends included at
Speaker:my desk from eight till nine.
Speaker:Just crank through some great work.
Speaker:The book that inspired that was
Speaker:Atomic Habits, which came out
Speaker:pre-COVID. I'm sure many people have
Speaker:read it was an Amazon bestseller,
Speaker:but it was all about, you know, if
Speaker:you create the framework
:00, I will sit down
:at my desk, create the input,
:and then the output arrives
:magically.
:Lovely. So if you like what you
:hear, please leave us a comment or
:subscribe and we will wrap on
:this episode of The Operations Room.
:Thank you for joining us, Charlie.
