74. The Art and Science of 1:1 Meetings
In this episode we discuss: the art and science of 1 to 1 meetings. We are joined by Dr. Steven Rogelberg, CEO, Board Member, Editor, Author, Chief Talent Officer, Director.
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We chat about the following with Steven Rogelberg:
- Are your one-on-ones actually driving engagement, or are they just another meeting on the calendar?
- What message are you really sending when you cancel a one-on-one—and how does it impact employee trust?
- Why is listening more than speaking the secret to making one-on-ones truly effective?
- How can structured one-on-ones boost productivity, retention, and even inclusion within your team?
- Are most managers failing at one-on-ones simply because they’ve never been trained to do them well?
References
- https://www.linkedin.com/in/rogelberg/
- stevenrogelberg.com
Biography
Dr. Steven G. Rogelberg is a Chancellor’s Professor at UNC Charlotte and a leading expert on meetings. An award-winning organizational psychologist, he has over 200 publications, 12,000+ citations, and received the prestigious Humboldt Award for his research. Adam Grant calls him the “world’s leading expert on how to fix meetings.”
His book The Surprising Science of Meetings appeared on 25+ “best of” lists, including The Washington Post’s #1 leadership book to watch. His latest book, Glad We Met: The Art and Science of 1:1 Meetings, has earned high praise, including recognition from SHRM and Forbes.
Rogelberg has been featured on CBS This Morning, CNN, BBC World, NPR’s Morning Edition, and major publications like The WSJ, NY Times, Bloomberg, and National Geographic. His keynotes have been delivered worldwide at top organizations including Google, Amazon, Pfizer, and the United Nations.
In 2022, he testified before the U.S. Congress and was the inaugural winner of SIOP’s Humanitarian Award.
To learn more about Beth and Brandon or to find out about sponsorship opportunities click here.
Summary
14:40 The Importance of One-on-Ones
17:48 Common Mistakes in One-on-Ones
23:40 Building Trust and Connection
26:51 Key Elements of Effective One-on-Ones
27:22 Surprising Insights from Research
30:34 Training and Supporting Line Managers
33:28 Creating a Culture of Effective Meetings
This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis:
Podcorn - https://podcorn.com/privacy
Transcript
Hello everyone, and welcome to
Speaker:another episode of The Operations
Speaker:Room, a podcast for Ciolos.
Speaker:I am Brandon Metzinger, joined by my
Speaker:lovely co-host Bethany Ayres.
Speaker:How are things going this morning,
Speaker:Bethany?
Speaker:I'm on my second cup of tea and
Speaker:hoping to have a third really
Speaker:quickly.
Speaker:Woohoo!
Speaker:That is an early start to the
Speaker:morning early.
Speaker:An intense start.
Speaker:Like it's been really busy at work
Speaker:recently and I've basically just
Speaker:been surviving on caffeine.
Speaker:But I can't drink coffee,
Speaker:so I just having a
Speaker:million cups of tea, which doesn't
Speaker:sound very hardcore, but for me
Speaker:is pretty hardcore, like
Speaker:six cups of tea.
Speaker:Tea has a tremendous amount of
Speaker:caffeine. Does it not like typical
Speaker:tea, like Earl gray tea or
Speaker:what have you?
Speaker:Oh, definitely not Earl gray.
Speaker:It's like drinking perfume, but
Speaker:just normal black tea, I
Speaker:don't know, sometimes you see things
Speaker:that say it does and then other
Speaker:times you don't and you don't know
Speaker:who to believe.
Speaker:It's the internet.
Speaker:ChatGPT will have a hallucination.
Speaker:Who knows?
Speaker:So I'm a huge coffee fan.
Speaker:Love coffee? I've way too many
Speaker:coffees. It's my drug of choice
Speaker:these days.
Speaker:Why can you not drink?
Speaker:Coffee is like a stomach issue.
Speaker:I don't know, there's something
Speaker:about it that doesn't agree with me.
Speaker:Like I even decaffeinated.
Speaker:It kind of oozes out of my skin.
Speaker:I just smell weird for days
Speaker:afterwards. I get heart
Speaker:palpitations.
Speaker:And it's not just the caffeine, but
Speaker:there's like, something in maybe the
Speaker:oils that cause I'll
Speaker:even get heart palpitations with the
Speaker:decaf because I love coffee,
Speaker:but not that I have ever taken
Speaker:cocaine.
Speaker:But yes.
Speaker:But it's like the
Speaker:analogous I can imagine if
Speaker:I had one gram of cocaine
Speaker:is the equivalent of ten cups of
Speaker:coffee.
Speaker:I'd like really up while
Speaker:wanting to be down at the same time,
Speaker:and not able to settle at a just
Speaker:like this very uncomfortable
Speaker:feeling.
Speaker:That's me with a cup of
Speaker:coffee.
Speaker:There's two things that I watch out
Speaker:for. What is the inflection point
Speaker:with coffee? Because up to a certain
Speaker:point you're like, yeah, loving it.
Speaker:Injection of energy.
Speaker:I'm focused and I'm brilliant.
Speaker:I'm doing really, really good work
Speaker:and that at some point it hits you
Speaker:where you're over jazz.
Speaker:Basically, your mind starts to
Speaker:scramble and your ability to
Speaker:actually focus then rapidly
Speaker:decreases.
Speaker:So I'm always highly aware of this
Speaker:inflection point.
Speaker:And then the other bidders just
Speaker:making try stop at, you
Speaker:know, I usually max out of 3:30 p.m.
Speaker:as my hard deadline for like
Speaker:not having coffee at that point
Speaker:because it does kind of sit in my
Speaker:system.
Speaker:Yeah, that's me with my tea, but I'm
Speaker:having it. I'd of 6 or 7 cups
Speaker:between 6
Speaker:a.m. and three.
Speaker:No, that's the that's the perfect
Speaker:time to know
Speaker:stories about what's been happening
Speaker:in the Bethany world.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:No, nothing.
Speaker:My kids are home.
Speaker:They're driving me crazy.
Speaker:I miss when they were young and cute
Speaker:and I was the center of their
Speaker:universe.
Speaker:Now they tolerate me like,
Speaker:I think we're doing pretty good
Speaker:parenting because they don't hate
Speaker:us. There's not a lot of door
Speaker:slamming, So
Speaker:we are, at best,
Speaker:benevolent roommates.
Speaker:Benevolent benefactors.
Speaker:Yeah. I mean, we would never they
Speaker:would never own up to the fact that
Speaker:we're actually paying for anything.
Speaker:Like, we're definitely just
Speaker:roommates, so they have to tolerate
Speaker:and at worse, people
Speaker:who are controlling their lives and
Speaker:making everything horrible.
Speaker:But not very often.
Speaker:Right. And then the occasional
Speaker:nugget of wisdom gets through.
Speaker:Yeah, but you would never know
Speaker:because they will not let you.
Speaker:Like in a few years, we'll
Speaker:find out all of these things that
Speaker:they'd actually paid attention to.
Speaker:Once they're in their 20s.
Speaker:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker:But for the moment, everything
Speaker:is just a blank face.
Speaker:No matter what I say, you know, they
Speaker:just kind of stare at me like I'm
Speaker:an absolute idiot, but
Speaker:not one that they hate.
Speaker:You know, often they feel sorry for
Speaker:me.
Speaker:They're in the teen years.
Speaker:They're just like a massive
Speaker:assumption that their
Speaker:world is like the new world.
Speaker:And you're part of the old order.
Speaker:The old guard, as it were.
Speaker:So you don't get it?
Speaker:We don't get anything.
Speaker:And we're pretty stupid.
Speaker:I mean, my daughter already hates my
Speaker:music that I listen to.
Speaker:She's like, daddy, that's old person
Speaker:music.
Speaker:She's eight years old.
Speaker:So we find common ground musically
Speaker:around Pink and Kelly Clarkson.
Speaker:So that crosses the boundaries.
Speaker:Oh, this are quite old school.
Speaker:With pink because her daughter
Speaker:is also 7 or 8 years old,
Speaker:and we've done a couple songs
Speaker:together.
Speaker:She loves that.
Speaker:And she loves that. The young girl.
Speaker:Awesome. I mean, pink is a great
Speaker:role model to go after.
Speaker:I look up to pink.
Speaker:Yeah. No nonsense.
Speaker:She's on it.
Speaker:All right, so we have a
Speaker:really wonderful topic today, which
Speaker:is the art and science of 1 to 1
Speaker:meetings.
Speaker:And we have an amazing guest for
Speaker:this. He is Steven Rosenberg.
Speaker:He's the author of Glad We Met the
Speaker:Art of science and 1 to 1 meetings.
Speaker:And that book has been on more
Speaker:than two dozen best of lists.
Speaker:And he's a frequent guest on CNN,
Speaker:CBS, Fox News, etc., etc.
Speaker:so he's a bit of a phenomena
Speaker:unto himself.
Speaker:Before we get to, Stephen wanted to
Speaker:ask you a couple of questions in
Speaker:that 1 to 1 sphere.
Speaker:There was one subtopic of interest
Speaker:that I wanted to ask you about,
Speaker:which is this idea of integrating
Speaker:career development into your one to
Speaker:ones and what you do with that and
Speaker:what that looks like for you
Speaker:historically.
Speaker:So we have like three one,
Speaker:two ones that are employee
Speaker:led or whatever you want to say, you
Speaker:know, direct report led.
Speaker:They are topics.
Speaker:And then one a month which is more
Speaker:of this career development
Speaker:feedback.
Speaker:And it's always felt a bit
Speaker:weird to me.
Speaker:It's like the policy.
Speaker:And it was there before I started
Speaker:and I could understand it, but
Speaker:it just seems like a bit of a
Speaker:mushing of what are two
Speaker:different types of meetings.
Speaker:I do them depending on the person
Speaker:and depending on the cadence.
Speaker:I think my preference would be
Speaker:constant feedback both ways,
Speaker:and then actual
Speaker:biannual appraisals
Speaker:where you pull it all together
Speaker:because I think it's much more
Speaker:organic to have it happen as it
Speaker:happens, you know?
Speaker:So there's sometimes I have no
Speaker:feedback either way.
Speaker:And then other times I'll be
Speaker:thinking that person and just have
Speaker:like an moment and much
Speaker:rather share that in our next 1 to 1
Speaker:as part of that, then save
Speaker:it or force myself to have to
Speaker:contemplate people.
Speaker:And literally the whole point of the
Speaker:radical candor philosophy, which I
Speaker:think we both agree with, is when
Speaker:things happen, you know, feedback
Speaker:should be given as rapidly as
Speaker:it makes sense, basically.
Speaker:And to your previous point on the
Speaker:other podcast, there's some elements
Speaker:where it does require some thought,
Speaker:not in terms of a particular event,
Speaker:but connecting some dots for the
Speaker:person where you need to think about
Speaker:kind of the overall picture of the
Speaker:individual in terms of what you're
Speaker:seeing and feeling around that
Speaker:individual. Contextualizing and
Speaker:bringing something for that maybe is
Speaker:more insightful.
Speaker:And those are two different things,
Speaker:but both are needed and both can
Speaker:happen at any point in time.
Speaker:It doesn't necessarily need to have
Speaker:like a planted monthly session
Speaker:to somehow do that.
Speaker:So here's kind of a question slash
Speaker:thought for you. So historically,
Speaker:I've been poor at this.
Speaker:I think in a way, because what I've
Speaker:tended to do is outside of the
Speaker:feedback part of it, which I do do
Speaker:for sure separate that
Speaker:in my head. I've always had this
Speaker:idea of career development
Speaker:as elements to be put
Speaker:into the 1 to 1 over time, not on
Speaker:a weekly basis, but what I would
Speaker:typically do is at some point during
Speaker:the year period, sit down with the
Speaker:individual and say, look, what is it
Speaker:that you want to get out of the next
Speaker:12 months?
Speaker:What do you want that to look like
Speaker:for you?
Speaker:And to work our way backwards
Speaker:in terms of, okay, that's the
Speaker:individual that you want to be, the
Speaker:role that you want, the skills that
Speaker:you want.
Speaker:How do we put a stake in the ground
Speaker:in terms of what good looks like 12,
Speaker:18 months from now, work our way
Speaker:backwards quarter on quarter and
Speaker:figure out what is a good game plan
Speaker:for you to get there effectively and
Speaker:to what would happen over the course
Speaker:of that year period. Is, you know,
Speaker:we would start really strong and
Speaker:really fresh because we've done the
Speaker:session. We spent 90 minutes kind of
Speaker:going through this in some level
Speaker:detail.
Speaker:We have really good intent,
Speaker:goodwill, the day to day grind.
Speaker:It just kind of drops away or fades
Speaker:away at some point.
Speaker:You're not really going back to a
Speaker:properly.
Speaker:And that's where I've always, for
Speaker:the most part ended up with
Speaker:individuals.
Speaker:And I'm always kind of kicking
Speaker:myself because by the time we look
Speaker:back to it a year later and do it
Speaker:again, I'm like, have we actually
Speaker:made any progress here at all?
Speaker:And the answer usually is not a
Speaker:tremendous amount.
Speaker:I agree, I hate PDP's,
Speaker:I hate the structure, I hate the way
Speaker:that they're supposed to be done.
Speaker:I feel like people teams have never
Speaker:understood what an actual PDB or
Speaker:day to day job is.
Speaker:It feels like it's written by a
Speaker:consultant who knows nothing, and I
Speaker:just think they're stupid.
Speaker:I think figuring out
Speaker:what are those blockers or what
Speaker:is the next most important
Speaker:thing for that person to either
Speaker:learn, experiment or do
Speaker:is way more powerful.
Speaker:So as an example,
Speaker:without giving too much detail, I
Speaker:had somebody in my team
Speaker:who just was not a very
Speaker:good communicator.
Speaker:Afraid of public speaking?
Speaker:Not necessarily
Speaker:inspiring their team very much.
Speaker:Knew it was an issue.
Speaker:Also had, like a real blocker about
Speaker:writing.
Speaker:My observation was you're
Speaker:not communicating very well.
Speaker:You're not getting the team behind
Speaker:you. You're not selling
Speaker:yourself within the business.
Speaker:You don't have the influence that
Speaker:you should have given your
Speaker:capability.
Speaker:And then they decided to
Speaker:do a couple things over the course
Speaker:of the year. So the first thing was
Speaker:go to a Toastmasters
Speaker:and learn how to public speech.
Speaker:And after
Speaker:a couple months of Toastmasters,
Speaker:it's like they were ready
Speaker:to present in a company
Speaker:all hands, and wanted to topic
Speaker:and did the first presentation and
Speaker:got loads of positive feedback.
Speaker:And then they decided the next thing
Speaker:I want to do is read
Speaker:more, learn more,
Speaker:and then create book
Speaker:reviews to practice writing
Speaker:and sharing my views, both
Speaker:internally and on LinkedIn.
Speaker:And so then they did that.
Speaker:And you don't need to go to courses.
Speaker:You don't need to write up a whole
Speaker:PDF. You don't have to say
Speaker:what you're going to do.
Speaker:How is it measurable?
Speaker:Blah blah blah.
Speaker:Just take the next thing.
Speaker:There was somebody else who really
Speaker:struggled with delegating.
Speaker:And so then we worked on how
Speaker:are they going to delegate.
Speaker:And then they delegated for a very
Speaker:little bit and then took it all back
Speaker:on themselves. So it's like okay,
Speaker:it's not how do you delegate.
Speaker:It's like what's holding you back
Speaker:from delegating.
Speaker:So then we worked on
Speaker:understanding personal worth
Speaker:and being afraid that they're not
Speaker:going to be capable or they're not
Speaker:going to be viewed as important if
Speaker:they delegate areas.
Speaker:And so then we did it very small,
Speaker:like, okay, delegate one
Speaker:thing and see
Speaker:how actually it improves
Speaker:your esteem. If your team is doing
Speaker:well rather than just you can now
Speaker:delegate another thing.
Speaker:And we did it in a
Speaker:small way
Speaker:where they were able to see the
Speaker:impact of each little bit that
Speaker:felt comfortable to reinforce
Speaker:it until they were able to delegate.
Speaker:And it wasn't like tools on
Speaker:delegation again.
Speaker:It was something
Speaker:that was holding them back.
Speaker:And I think those are way more
Speaker:important PDP elements that writing
Speaker:up a structure or going on a course.
Speaker:I find most courses pointless, so
Speaker:I'm very skeptical.
Speaker:I've never been on a good course.
Speaker:So I think the classic PDB with
Speaker:classic training courses and all
Speaker:ages. I agree with you 1,000%.
Speaker:It's a complete waste of time.
Speaker:I think to your point, if you want
Speaker:to be this person had 12 months and
Speaker:we roughly know what that looks
Speaker:like, then as you kind of work
Speaker:your way backwards quarter on
Speaker:quarter, we have the first quarter
Speaker:ahead of us. And what is the 1
Speaker:or 2 things that we could do this
Speaker:quarter to put ourselves on that
Speaker:pathway?
Speaker:And to your point, that don't need
Speaker:to be monumental things.
Speaker:And I definitely don't need to be
Speaker:training or formal courses in any
Speaker:form. But it's like what logically
Speaker:makes the most sense to get the
Speaker:highest impact.
Speaker:It doesn't even have to be a
Speaker:quarter. Like, sometimes it can just
Speaker:be until the next 1 to 1, or
Speaker:for the next six weeks, or
Speaker:you have something coming up, try
Speaker:something different.
Speaker:And for me, if you just focus
Speaker:on one thing for a short amount of
Speaker:time, it's a much bigger unlock
Speaker:than these 18 month plans
Speaker:or 12 month plans like another
Speaker:one just again, wasn't really
Speaker:engaging their team, not
Speaker:taking team meetings
Speaker:and team morale
Speaker:seriously.
Speaker:So they had a team meeting
Speaker:coming up.
Speaker:And then it's like, this is how team
Speaker:meetings work. This is the areas
Speaker:where you're not working.
Speaker:Go create your presentation.
Speaker:And it was like it went from a
Speaker:level five presentation to a level
Speaker:nine presentation by just being told
Speaker:they have to focus on it.
Speaker:And then there was a consistency,
Speaker:sometimes just just a gap where
Speaker:people don't realize they're not
Speaker:putting enough effort in.
Speaker:And then they do. And it's good.
Speaker:And I find that much, much more
Speaker:valuable than the
Speaker:stupid PDP and revisiting
Speaker:it, because then you can also just
Speaker:say, like so much of it is around.
Speaker:So you've experimented.
Speaker:How did it go?
Speaker:How did you feel?
Speaker:What worked? What didn't work?
Speaker:And those are the questions that are
Speaker:interesting to answer.
Speaker:Not filling in some catalog
Speaker:of have I accomplished this
Speaker:in a box?
Speaker:So here's another thing I
Speaker:philosophically do, which you may
Speaker:not agree with. Perhaps I don't
Speaker:quite know, but usually when I get
Speaker:in these sessions, what I usually
Speaker:end up saying at the outset,
Speaker:like I don't care
Speaker:about the company, but
Speaker:I care about is your career
Speaker:what you're wanting out of the next
Speaker:1218 months and how to get there?
Speaker:And if you want to be a VP of
Speaker:marketing, this may or may not be
Speaker:in this company, but you definitely
Speaker:want to be in that pathway,
Speaker:irrespective of the company that
Speaker:we're currently working in.
Speaker:Let's make it happen for you.
Speaker:So it's a bit of just like
Speaker:separating company context from the
Speaker:person's growth path in this case.
Speaker:Yeah, I don't know if I say it is
Speaker:explicitly,
Speaker:but I feel like I just can't
Speaker:remember if we've spoken about this
Speaker:before, that it depends
Speaker:on what's in your heart.
Speaker:And people can.
Speaker:Even if you don't say it, people can
Speaker:read whether you're doing
Speaker:this for their benefit or your
Speaker:benefit to the company's benefit.
Speaker:And I really do go in
Speaker:to these, well,
Speaker:for lack of a better word, coaching
Speaker:sessions. They just sometimes one to
Speaker:ones turn into coaching sessions.
Speaker:Sometimes one to ones are
Speaker:something else.
Speaker:When they do turn into a coaching
Speaker:session, like I'm very much
Speaker:there for the individual in my
Speaker:heart, and I feel like
Speaker:they can read that
Speaker:from the place that I'm coming from
Speaker:somehow.
Speaker:People can tell maybe in their body,
Speaker:you know, I'm a bit more into this
Speaker:than you are the genuineness of what
Speaker:you're saying.
Speaker:Why don't we park it here and let's
Speaker:get on to our conversation with
Speaker:Stephen Roxburgh.
Speaker:When Brendan told me that he'd book
Speaker:to you, my very first question was,
Speaker:how could you write an entire book
Speaker:on one to ones?
Speaker:And I just would love to start with
Speaker:that question.
Speaker:I would argue back, how could you
Speaker:not write an entire book on one on
Speaker:ones?
Speaker:This is the meeting that
Speaker:employees can truly be seen
Speaker:by their manager.
Speaker:Let me tell you what I mean by a one
Speaker:on one, because maybe that will
Speaker:help. So when I talk about a one
Speaker:on one, I'm talking about a meeting
Speaker:that's orchestrated and facilitated
Speaker:by a manager, but it is not for
Speaker:them. It is for their people.
Speaker:It is for the people to share what's
Speaker:on their minds, their thoughts,
Speaker:their issues, their concerns, their
Speaker:obstacles.
Speaker:And for the manager to engage
Speaker:with them on the terms of their
Speaker:direct.
Speaker:So in many ways,
Speaker:this is a meeting for people to be
Speaker:truly seen.
Speaker:And that's what we're craving,
Speaker:right? That's what the pandemic
Speaker:really created obstacles
Speaker:towards having people feel
Speaker:seen. So these meetings
Speaker:are essential to
Speaker:individual success,
Speaker:leader success and organizational
Speaker:success. And yet there's almost
Speaker:no training on how to do them.
Speaker:And what we generally find is that
Speaker:managers are investing
Speaker:the time They're doing it so badly
Speaker:that it's becoming wasted time.
Speaker:So this book tries to elevate
Speaker:this practice and says, hey, this is
Speaker:truly an opportunity.
Speaker:You're doing it wrong.
Speaker:And if you do it right, here are the
Speaker:great outcomes that can arise from
Speaker:it.
Speaker:Brian Chayefsky, the CEO of Airbnb,
Speaker:is very clearly said from his lens
Speaker:or his point of view.
Speaker:Waste of time.
Speaker:Don't bother.
Speaker:The Nvidia CEO is kind of double
Speaker:down on that a little bit.
Speaker:But from your point of view, are
Speaker:they getting wrong in terms of that
Speaker:perception?
Speaker:I think they're doing them wrong.
Speaker:And when you do them wrong, they're
Speaker:absolutely a waste of time when
Speaker:they're done right.
Speaker:The outcomes are amazing.
Speaker:And this was based on a study done
Speaker:by Gallup involving over a million
Speaker:individuals.
Speaker:They find that when these things are
Speaker:executed effectively, employees
Speaker:report nearly three times as much
Speaker:engagement on the job.
Speaker:They also
Speaker:found greater productivity
Speaker:teams have greater thriving
Speaker:as well.
Speaker:And then the exciting thing
Speaker:is that the leaders success is
Speaker:enhanced, right?
Speaker:Leaders are ultimately evaluated by
Speaker:the success of those that report
Speaker:into them.
Speaker:So as these one on ones elevate
Speaker:the performance of individuals and
Speaker:teams, it only makes the leader
Speaker:look good.
Speaker:And then the big surprise is
Speaker:that we actually found that doing
Speaker:one on ones effectively resulted in
Speaker:more time back to
Speaker:the leader. Because basically what
Speaker:they report is that when they have
Speaker:these things in a regular cadence
Speaker:done well, that employees
Speaker:didn't have the need to constantly
Speaker:interrupt throughout the week.
Speaker:So managers are reported more time
Speaker:for flow, which, as we know in the
Speaker:tech industry is particularly
Speaker:important.
Speaker:So what I've seen
Speaker:is when an organization says
Speaker:we're going to ban a particular type
Speaker:of meeting, right? So we think about
Speaker:like, you know, Shopify saying no
Speaker:meetings or these practices,
Speaker:no one on ones that that
Speaker:is giving up on something that's
Speaker:absolutely critical.
Speaker:But the reason you're giving up is
Speaker:because your people aren't doing it
Speaker:right. And if we could change
Speaker:how people do it, the
Speaker:the positives will just be
Speaker:incredibly apparent.
Speaker:I'm not going to ask you, how do you
Speaker:do it? Right? I'm going to ask you
Speaker:because I suspect most of our
Speaker:listeners will be like me and be
Speaker:like, yeah, I'm fine with this.
Speaker:What are
Speaker:the common mistakes?
Speaker:You see where I as soon as you talk
Speaker:about it, I'm going to be like, oh,
Speaker:never mind. I'm really bad at this.
Speaker:So first of all, not being on a
Speaker:regular cadence.
Speaker:The research is really clear that
Speaker:when these things are done weekly or
Speaker:every other week, that's where you
Speaker:receive the greatest outcomes.
Speaker:So that regularity allows the
Speaker:relationship to truly grow
Speaker:and improve.
Speaker:Tick I do that one.
Speaker:Okay. Excellent.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:I'm scoring myself.
Speaker:By the way I said we're out of 100.
Speaker:So here we go.
Speaker:So the cool thing is the amount
Speaker:of minutes actually matters less
Speaker:than the regularity of the contact.
Speaker:So even if you just doing 15
Speaker:to 20 minutes but they're good
Speaker:15 20 minutes, you're going to see
Speaker:the outcomes.
Speaker:So we talked about cadence.
Speaker:Next is how
Speaker:you conduct these things in terms
Speaker:of how you feature yourself.
Speaker:So if you're imposing
Speaker:your will on the employee and you're
Speaker:asking for status updates,
Speaker:that's not the goal of these, right?
Speaker:Managers can get status updates in
Speaker:so many different ways.
Speaker:Right. They have the power.
Speaker:They can send emails saying, hey,
Speaker:give me a status update.
Speaker:They can do it in team meetings.
Speaker:So we want these conversations
Speaker:to be about what's
Speaker:on the minds of their directs.
Speaker:Therefore, they're posing broad
Speaker:questions that allows the employee
Speaker:to respond in the manner
Speaker:that they choose to respond.
Speaker:And the types of things that
Speaker:managers are saying most are.
Speaker:Tell me more.
Speaker:Help me understand.
Speaker:How can I better support you?
Speaker:Right. So those are the types of
Speaker:utterances.
Speaker:And interestingly, what we find is
Speaker:that the more the manager talks him
Speaker:one on ones, the lower the ratings
Speaker:of effectiveness.
Speaker:Therefore, listen more than
Speaker:you speak. We have two ears, one
Speaker:mouth. We should be listening a heck
Speaker:of a lot more. So a common mistake
Speaker:is the manager talking more than
Speaker:the direct.
Speaker:And really making sure that the
Speaker:meeting is about them and not
Speaker:their direct.
Speaker:So that's the second thing.
Speaker:How are you doing on that one?
Speaker:Yeah I'm doing fine on that one.
Speaker:So those are two are a common.
Speaker:A third one is cancellation.
Speaker:So a lot of managers if
Speaker:something comes up for them they
Speaker:just cancel these one on ones.
Speaker:But that becomes a really negative
Speaker:signal to employees.
Speaker:Right. You're basically prioritizing
Speaker:everything above dumb.
Speaker:And so if you have to cancel
Speaker:a one on one the best practices to
Speaker:move it up as opposed
Speaker:to move it back, move it up
Speaker:even for 5 to 10 minutes,
Speaker:right. Just have that point of
Speaker:contact.
Speaker:And then finally I'll stop here.
Speaker:But there's so many.
Speaker:So another critical
Speaker:one is making sure that these
Speaker:one on ones have an end day.
Speaker:We know they end,
Speaker:but an ending is slightly different.
Speaker:And ending is where there's really a
Speaker:coming together of what we talked
Speaker:about, what was decided, how, you
Speaker:know, the commitments are made and
Speaker:then people follow through with
Speaker:them. So when you put this together,
Speaker:right, is these 20, 30
Speaker:minutes, maybe a dedicated,
Speaker:focused time where you are truly
Speaker:engaging with someone that reports
Speaker:into you on their terms.
Speaker:And if you stop and reflect
Speaker:and think about a time when someone
Speaker:in power took a genuine interest in
Speaker:you and how it affected you
Speaker:and your experience of
Speaker:them.
Speaker:That's what we're trying to
Speaker:replicate. That's the gift you're
Speaker:trying to give your people.
Speaker:This idea of, you know, we've got
Speaker:two ears and we should be listening.
Speaker:And, you know, it's really their
Speaker:meeting, not our meeting.
Speaker:What prevents that from becoming
Speaker:like a regular therapy session as
Speaker:opposed to something productive for
Speaker:the organization, if that makes
Speaker:sense.
Speaker:Well, let's take it to the extreme.
Speaker:Let's say you do have someone that's
Speaker:meeting with you for that
Speaker:20 minutes. And they need to they
Speaker:want to vent about a particular
Speaker:issue and have you listen and
Speaker:you say, hey, how can I support or
Speaker:prevent this from happening?
Speaker:So be it.
Speaker:What is wrong with giving someone 20
Speaker:minutes to.
Speaker:If that's what's on their minds?
Speaker:Let's let them get it off their
Speaker:minds.
Speaker:Right. So as a manager, we
Speaker:are managing the entire person,
Speaker:right? People bring their entire
Speaker:personhood to the organization.
Speaker:And if that individual
Speaker:feels like they, for this
Speaker:short period of time, that they need
Speaker:to tell their manager about
Speaker:something that's important
Speaker:to them.
Speaker:And if we want relationships to
Speaker:thrive, it just can't be our
Speaker:own agenda. I can think of lots of
Speaker:different relationships where we
Speaker:have conversations that I'm not
Speaker:really all that interested in
Speaker:having. I'm going to have them
Speaker:because the other person wants it.
Speaker:And so when we think about work
Speaker:weeks, we're talking 40 or
Speaker:50 hours.
Speaker:A person's grinding person's
Speaker:doing all kinds of stuff.
Speaker:Is it really that much to ask
Speaker:that we find some amount
Speaker:of time where we can engage with
Speaker:someone on their terms?
Speaker:If we're really trying to promote
Speaker:meaningful connection when
Speaker:we do a meaningful connection.
Speaker:Right. So when we do are willing
Speaker:to listen for those periods of time,
Speaker:the outcomes come up, right?
Speaker:So when we think about the people
Speaker:that we're really motivated to work
Speaker:for, it's people that we think
Speaker:care about us, right?
Speaker:We're committed to those types of
Speaker:individuals.
Speaker:And so it's an investment
Speaker:on someone else's terms.
Speaker:And we're not comfortable with that
Speaker:because we tend to lead our days
Speaker:with a very self oriented framework.
Speaker:But having this more other oriented
Speaker:framework with our people changes
Speaker:fundamentally their relationship to
Speaker:you and to the broader organization,
Speaker:which is desirable.
Speaker:Right? So when we think about all
Speaker:these conversations in the media
Speaker:about, yeah, people need to come to
Speaker:work, they need to start stop
Speaker:working at home.
Speaker:That's kind of the wrong
Speaker:conversation.
Speaker:You know, what we need is for people
Speaker:to have genuine connections with
Speaker:each other and
Speaker:to form a meaningful relationship
Speaker:with the larger organization, as
Speaker:opposed to viewing. Everything is
Speaker:transactional and one on ones
Speaker:are the front line of connection.
Speaker:What becomes apparent to me is
Speaker:what you say, which is it's the
Speaker:primary golden vehicle for building
Speaker:trust and a relationship
Speaker:and the feeling that you have there
Speaker:back, basically number one.
Speaker:Number two, there's an opportunity
Speaker:for career development and growth
Speaker:because you can help that individual
Speaker:kind of unlock their their skill
Speaker:set over the course of time by
Speaker:really shepherding that and acting
Speaker:as a guide or a mentor, whatever is
Speaker:appropriate in that case.
Speaker:And then the third one I find very
Speaker:useful is strategic
Speaker:alignment and really
Speaker:focus on what matters.
Speaker:I guess sometimes people they
Speaker:misunderstand or get skewed
Speaker:in terms of what the business is
Speaker:really trying to accomplish and how
Speaker:their role in their work rolls up
Speaker:into the greater good, so to speak,
Speaker:in terms of what we're trying to get
Speaker:done. I guess a degree, those
Speaker:are the three ingredients.
Speaker:And B, do you think there's other
Speaker:things that I'm not thinking about
Speaker:or different things that need to be
Speaker:tackled in that meeting, perhaps.
Speaker:That's exactly right.
Speaker:We can use a sports metaphor,
Speaker:right? We put all these athletes
Speaker:together, and we
Speaker:know there's so many examples
Speaker:of a team with better athletes
Speaker:not winning.
Speaker:Right? A team with better athletes
Speaker:is utterly failing.
Speaker:And in sports,
Speaker:those cultures, those franchises
Speaker:that really connect with their
Speaker:people and those coaches that really
Speaker:connect with their people, they
Speaker:tend to be more successful.
Speaker:Right? There's just a commitment
Speaker:that goes beyond the individual.
Speaker:And so these meetings,
Speaker:besides those great things that you
Speaker:named, it's also about promoting
Speaker:team synergy and connections.
Speaker:It's also we've all
Speaker:heard the adage that people don't
Speaker:leave bad jobs.
Speaker:They leave bad bosses.
Speaker:So it's the opportunity for the boss
Speaker:to prove that they're not a bad
Speaker:boss.
Speaker:So it has retention implications.
Speaker:It also has inclusion implications.
Speaker:So when we think about inclusion,
Speaker:what opportunities are there for
Speaker:people to feel included?
Speaker:This is a principal one
Speaker:right. This is one where you're
Speaker:absolutely demonstrating your
Speaker:commitment to inclusion.
Speaker:So there's so many different
Speaker:initiatives.
Speaker:There's so many different things.
Speaker:It's one of the few examples.
Speaker:One of the few examples
Speaker:that by bringing more humanity
Speaker:into the workplace is actually
Speaker:good for business.
Speaker:And I think it's really important to
Speaker:remember that, you know, meetings
Speaker:and one on ones are an actually
Speaker:an evolution from the command and
Speaker:control systems of the industrial
Speaker:revolution, where we devalue
Speaker:humans.
Speaker:Right? We just saw them as parts,
Speaker:and then we evolved beyond that.
Speaker:We realized that greatness happens.
Speaker:To the extent that the people that
Speaker:work in our organization are truly
Speaker:thriving and
Speaker:as they thrive, right, their
Speaker:commitment increases.
Speaker:Their helping of others increases.
Speaker:People tend to help each other more.
Speaker:Right. So we recognize that
Speaker:through this elevation
Speaker:of the human in the equation,
Speaker:great things can happen.
Speaker:This is our principal tool.
Speaker:This is our principal mechanism
Speaker:for making individuals
Speaker:fully recognize that,
Speaker:that those aren't just words.
Speaker:That is actually a commitment.
Speaker:Tell me this in terms of your book,
Speaker:and not so much the art part
Speaker:of it, but the science part of it.
Speaker:Was there anything that was
Speaker:surprising to you in your research
Speaker:as you delved into this?
Speaker:That's a great question. So one of
Speaker:them was that the thing I
Speaker:mentioned earlier is that
Speaker:through one on ones, managers were
Speaker:reporting having more time.
Speaker:I thought that was fascinating.
Speaker:Right. So when they're executed
Speaker:effectively so that those employees
Speaker:leave the room feeling like they're
Speaker:better supported and have more tools
Speaker:to address what's on their minds,
Speaker:that that resulted in a time
Speaker:savings for managers.
Speaker:I thought, that's really
Speaker:fascinating.
Speaker:Another thing is
Speaker:the really strong relationship
Speaker:between the amount of talk
Speaker:managers have versus directs.
Speaker:I think that's a really important
Speaker:reminder, and
Speaker:especially because there's
Speaker:a whole host of research that shows
Speaker:that people talk a lot because it
Speaker:activates the same parts of their
Speaker:brain as good food and
Speaker:sex.
Speaker:So we talk a lot
Speaker:because it kind of feels good, and
Speaker:we want to make sure we give that
Speaker:gift to someone else.
Speaker:I thought that was really
Speaker:interesting.
Speaker:And then probably the third
Speaker:thing would be
Speaker:the fact that these
Speaker:meetings need some type
Speaker:of light weight agenda.
Speaker:That was a surprise to me.
Speaker:You know, I thought people could
Speaker:basically just go into the room and
Speaker:kind of have an organic
Speaker:conversation. But what we found
Speaker:clearly was that these meetings do
Speaker:need a plan of action.
Speaker:And the more the employee
Speaker:is involved in the creation of that
Speaker:plan of action, the outcomes
Speaker:were elevated.
Speaker:But lightweight really is key.
Speaker:Right. So it could be identifying
Speaker:a core set of questions that are so
Speaker:broad that the employee can answer
Speaker:any way they want.
Speaker:They could be asking the
Speaker:employee the types of questions that
Speaker:they want the manager to ask.
Speaker:That's great as well.
Speaker:And then constantly rotating
Speaker:them so with the conversation is
Speaker:fresh. You know the other approach
Speaker:that's again lightweight, that works
Speaker:beautifully, is you ask the
Speaker:employees to come to these one on
Speaker:ones with the set of topics that
Speaker:they want to talk about.
Speaker:That's totally fine.
Speaker:But if you want to execute in that
Speaker:approach, what's so critical
Speaker:is the manager
Speaker:reminds them the topics
Speaker:they would like to bring should just
Speaker:not be there.
Speaker:Current fires they're fighting,
Speaker:right? That they should think about
Speaker:their work, the team, the
Speaker:organization. They should think
Speaker:short term and long term.
Speaker:Now come create a set of topics
Speaker:to be discussed.
Speaker:If you do that, then the breadth of
Speaker:issues become much more meaningful.
Speaker:Otherwise, people will come to the
Speaker:one on one bringing up topics
Speaker:that they think you want to hear,
Speaker:not what they want to share.
Speaker:And what do you think of this idea
Speaker:of just simply having like a little
Speaker:notion document between the two of
Speaker:you where over the course of the
Speaker:week you just kind of drop in
Speaker:elements of discussion
Speaker:points that you'd like to speak to a
Speaker:little bit between the two of you.
Speaker:So by the time you get to that 1 to
Speaker:1, both sides have an opportunity to
Speaker:maybe drop in a couple elements.
Speaker:Yeah, I've absolutely seen that
Speaker:executed effectively.
Speaker:I like that.
Speaker:I like the use of these alternative
Speaker:modalities to kind of gleam
Speaker:the information.
Speaker:I would if you want to take that
Speaker:approach, just make sure that there
Speaker:is an opportunity for
Speaker:the unexpected in these one on ones
Speaker:that people can bring up issues that
Speaker:maybe they didn't talk about.
Speaker:So as long as there's opportunities
Speaker:for that, that's great.
Speaker:And by the way, one of the cool
Speaker:things is I worked with this one
Speaker:organization and what we did when
Speaker:they had that type of a practice.
Speaker:And then after the one on ones, you
Speaker:know, the manager kind of took notes
Speaker:is then the manager used
Speaker:AI to basically analyze
Speaker:the theme of those notes to see
Speaker:how things have changed over time.
Speaker:And then when it became to
Speaker:performance appraisal time, they
Speaker:didn't have nearly the same anxiety
Speaker:because they had a whole corpus
Speaker:of information that was readily
Speaker:available.
Speaker:So that's kind of the other bonus,
Speaker:a regular one on ones.
Speaker:When that relationship is strong and
Speaker:you're talking about real issues,
Speaker:Shoes come performance appraisal
Speaker:time. There's no surprises.
Speaker:It's just a continuation of
Speaker:a relationship.
Speaker:How do we make sure line
Speaker:managers are effective?
Speaker:And then how do we scale this in a
Speaker:way that's suitable for the company,
Speaker:whereby we're not spending
Speaker:inordinate amounts of time trying to
Speaker:set up these line managers to be
Speaker:successful?
Speaker:So what's your answer to that?
Speaker:How do we get line managers in a
Speaker:place where they're successful?
Speaker:Then how do we scale it?
Speaker:So first of all, we need to
Speaker:provide people with some type of
Speaker:training and one on ones.
Speaker:When we look to different
Speaker:organizations, we've only found
Speaker:one that's very
Speaker:problematic, especially
Speaker:because there's a blind spot that
Speaker:we've also found in our research is
Speaker:that people think they're better at
Speaker:these things than they really are.
Speaker:You ask someone, hey, are you good
Speaker:with relationships?
Speaker:Oh, yeah, I'm good.
Speaker:I'm good with relationships.
Speaker:But clearly, if you look at our
Speaker:divorce rates, we're not that good
Speaker:with relationships.
Speaker:We kind of are a flip of the coin.
Speaker:So we want to train
Speaker:people up and then we want to build
Speaker:feedback and accountability
Speaker:mechanisms. Right.
Speaker:So let's make sure that our
Speaker:engagement surveys have content
Speaker:around one on ones.
Speaker:Right. They're fundamental to the
Speaker:employee experience.
Speaker:So by building this data our
Speaker:engagement surveys now managers are
Speaker:actually getting feedback and
Speaker:their managers can see how it's
Speaker:trending.
Speaker:Right. So we have a leveling up of
Speaker:skills. We have feedback and
Speaker:accountability.
Speaker:And then we want to make sure that
Speaker:senior leadership is modeling
Speaker:the types of behaviors that they
Speaker:want to see in their managers.
Speaker:So those are like three
Speaker:principal paths for kind of changing
Speaker:the culture around these activities.
Speaker:But fundamentally we
Speaker:just need to talk about it.
Speaker:So if you look at
Speaker:organizational values and vision
Speaker:statements, and I did this in the
Speaker:book, is almost
Speaker:all of them talk about
Speaker:elevating their people,
Speaker:helping their people grow and
Speaker:thrive.
Speaker:So this whole initiative of
Speaker:one on ones is not a
Speaker:flavor of the month.
Speaker:It is fundamental to the values of
Speaker:the organization.
Speaker:And then if you ask individuals
Speaker:about there.
Speaker:So we did this as well.
Speaker:We asked leaders about their values.
Speaker:Almost invariably you get
Speaker:one of my values is helping lift
Speaker:people. Treating people with respect
Speaker:and kindness.
Speaker:This is how you do it.
Speaker:This is the manifestation of values.
Speaker:I bring that up because that's
Speaker:another key piece to
Speaker:the success equation.
Speaker:It's not linking it to, hey, this
Speaker:is a new thing we're trying.
Speaker:It's linking it to who we
Speaker:are. But what is our calling
Speaker:card as an organization?
Speaker:We're an organization that lives
Speaker:our values.
Speaker:And this is an example.
Speaker:For the line managers that are doing
Speaker:that work, that important work
Speaker:to be able to support them
Speaker:effectively.
Speaker:What's your sense of getting those
Speaker:line managers together on a periodic
Speaker:basis as kind of like peer level
Speaker:support and having somebody there
Speaker:that's quite experienced with one to
Speaker:ones, and for that person to kind of
Speaker:get that group together a bit like a
Speaker:right, get the group together, talk
Speaker:about what they're experiencing in
Speaker:their 1 to 1, some of the challenges
Speaker:they're having as line managers and
Speaker:surface some of those things
Speaker:together as a group.
Speaker:Brandon, I love the things you're
Speaker:sharing. It's fabulous.
Speaker:I absolutely love it.
Speaker:So this is a strange statement,
Speaker:but it ties into your excellent
Speaker:point.
Speaker:We need to actually
Speaker:have meetings about meetings.
Speaker:We need some meetings about meetings
Speaker:and making our meetings work.
Speaker:And that's what you're describing,
Speaker:right in many regards as a meeting
Speaker:about meetings.
Speaker:But how could we not?
Speaker:Like if you really think about it,
Speaker:this is how people are spending
Speaker:their days.
Speaker:It's so tied.
Speaker:And we know people are so incredibly
Speaker:frustrated.
Speaker:So why are we not talking about
Speaker:that? There's a tremendous amount of
Speaker:all this negative energy.
Speaker:Let's use it.
Speaker:Let's use it for good.
Speaker:Let's use it to change our culture
Speaker:so that we get the benefit of these
Speaker:activities.
Speaker:So what I see what you're suggesting
Speaker:is this idea of periodically
Speaker:stepping back and
Speaker:people connecting and saying, hey,
Speaker:what's working, what's not working?
Speaker:And how can we help each other?
Speaker:And I like that.
Speaker:I want managers to start saying,
Speaker:hey, we need to chart
Speaker:a new future of work from a
Speaker:collaboration perspective.
Speaker:I hear you.
Speaker:You're miserable with meetings.
Speaker:I am too.
Speaker:And yet, meetings are where
Speaker:organizational democracy takes
Speaker:place. Meetings are where your voice
Speaker:can be heard.
Speaker:So therefore, we can't eliminate
Speaker:them. We have to make them better.
Speaker:Let's talk about it and establish
Speaker:some collective norms around how we
Speaker:can do it. So we don't have to have
Speaker:a lot of meetings about meetings.
Speaker:But periodically we need to step
Speaker:back and look about how
Speaker:this technology is truly working
Speaker:for us and how we could do better.
Speaker:And interestingly, I use the word
Speaker:technology purposefully
Speaker:in that when we think about an
Speaker:organization's investment in their
Speaker:IT, it's so much
Speaker:smaller than meetings.
Speaker:Meetings are way more costly
Speaker:than your entire IT budget.
Speaker:And yet we're pretty thoughtful
Speaker:with that IT budget.
Speaker:We constantly are looking at whether
Speaker:it's working for us.
Speaker:We're constantly examining how we
Speaker:can improve that solution.
Speaker:That's the same energy I want to
Speaker:bring to meetings.
Speaker:It's a good point because if you're
Speaker:doing one to ones across the
Speaker:company, the number of one to ones
Speaker:that are happening on aggregate, if
Speaker:you put that time together on a
Speaker:monthly basis, there's a significant
Speaker:time sync that's going into it.
Speaker:And to your point, if nobody's
Speaker:trained on one to ones in any form
Speaker:whatsoever, what are you doing?
Speaker:Right. And that's where I go back to
Speaker:the comment you made earlier about
Speaker:these. You know, these two CEOs are
Speaker:saying, let's stop this practice.
Speaker:I mean, that's just such a silly
Speaker:response as opposed to saying,
Speaker:giving up on having humanity in
Speaker:the workplace at having genuine
Speaker:connection. Like that's really what
Speaker:they're saying because this is the
Speaker:vehicle for doing that.
Speaker:So thank you for circling back to
Speaker:the beginning of the conversation so
Speaker:artfully.
Speaker:If you had a single takeaway
Speaker:to leave our audience, what would
Speaker:that be?
Speaker:I think the key message is that
Speaker:and I'm going to go back to the
Speaker:values, because I think that's
Speaker:really the critical
Speaker:piece, is that as you reflect
Speaker:on who you are as a human being
Speaker:and what you value, how
Speaker:are you manifesting?
Speaker:How are you enacting those values.
Speaker:Are you really behaving consistently
Speaker:with them?
Speaker:And I think more times than not, the
Speaker:answer is going to be no.
Speaker:And recognize that one on ones is
Speaker:this opportunity to act
Speaker:on those values.
Speaker:And by doing so actually
Speaker:elevate individual success
Speaker:and your success.
Speaker:And then the final thing I'll, I'll
Speaker:leave you with is one of the
Speaker:greatest predictors of
Speaker:life satisfaction
Speaker:is the helping of others.
Speaker:One on ones are your opportunity
Speaker:to help others and by doing so
Speaker:have a much richer life.
Speaker:Nice. Love it.
Speaker:So thank you, Stephen, for joining
Speaker:us on the operations Room.
Speaker:If you like what you hear, please
Speaker:subscribe or leave us a comment and
Speaker:we will see you next week.
